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I had a sophisticated scammer roll me over.  It cost me agency fees, time with the girl, time in the Ukraine, presents there plus cash there and Western Union cash totalling $650 when all was said and done above what I payed the agency to meet the girl.  The agency was out of Kharkov, Ukraine (immediately a suspect city for those of you who know the industry).  I knew that, but I have to go for the pretty girls so I went with the agency, which is probably a scam agency as well.  At the very least they are completely negligent in screening their girls.  
The girl wrote decent letters to me.  We corresponded well.  She is fluent in English and 19 years younger than I as well.  She was one of five girls I went over to meet.  I went through the girls of the agency I intended to meet plus another 7 girls.  They were just as pretty as their pictures, but she seemed to connect so well with me.  She did not spend my money needlessly in Ukraine, did not ask for anything.  I met her mother - though in a restaurant and not her house.  Everything was fine - I thought she was great and quickly made her my only.  The girl was a normal Ukrainian girl, barely making it by our standards.  I saw she had no hat and that her gloves were torn so I bought her a fancy hat and gloves.  She had no watch so I bought her a decent watch - total present bill $160.  We ate at restaurants, hung out and had a good time.  No real sex, but we were very close.
We decided to start the fiance visa process.  We filled out the 325A form in my flat.  I figured I would get the paperwork set for her plus learn about her via email over the months and visit her again in April.  I gave her $220 cash when I left to get her International passport, more photos, translated birth certificate etc.  When I came back home within a week she claimed to have massive problems with the police in getting her International passport.  She said she had to convert her Russian passport to her Ukrainian and that she had to bribe people, because the in the Kharkov area the police are so corrupt, so I found out what she needed and I gave her $300.0  I still was waiting for the birth certificate, translated copies, photos etc.
Then she said she had to spend all the money to get her International passport.  I told her how much things should have cost and she gave me what seemed like a logical explanation that things in Eastern Ukraine are much more corrupt than Kiev and the police needed all the money to process the fiance visa.  Her situation was really unique, her father was a pilot.  They had lived in many places in the FSU as well as East Germany.  She had lots of pictures.  It seemed possible to me ie. I bought that lie.  So, I gave her the benefit of the doubt, it was Christmas time so I gave her $150 more for Western Union to get everything not yet done to me.  I expected her to buy herself a gift, or her family a gift with the extra money - luckily for me, no biggie, but of course the principle is what counts.  
The next thing I hear she is very sick.  She is in the hospital, there are expensive bills etc.  I said everything right, was sorry I could not be there to help her but sent no more money.  After five days I asked her for the hospital address because I wanted to send her a really nice present.  Oh, too late, she was getting out tomorrow, but could now not work for a while (keep in mind she was making $25 a month as an aerobics instructor plus going to school) - but everything would be fine, her parents had helped her and she would now be able to get me the paperwork, but could not use DHL as I asked, but would use another service and I would get the paperwork in two weeks.  
The next thing I hear is that her friend had a great way for her to get to the US, where she would not need a fiance visa.  It would be on a student visa and it would only cost me $1199 including airfare.  Plus the visa would be good for a minimum of five months.  By then I was really humoring myself with her.  I asked her to have her friend give me names, telephone numbers and email addresses of the girls his company had gotten into the US.  Once I had verified that other women had gone to the US this way I would be happy to send her the money, hah, hah, hah.   I also told her I spoke to my friend who is a lawyer about method of getting into the US and he did not know about it. Then I get an email back from her telling me how this is a good friend and she can not believe I do not trust her.  She does not want to be with a man if the man does not trust her.  
I sent her back an email saying that I do trust her, but I need evidence that her friend is not misleading her.  I am definitely done with her.  I may play with her and make up a Western Union number that I have sent her for the full amount of the money etc.  
Bottom line - she has been scamming me.  She made me go to the Ukraine, acted like she loved me, acted like she wanted to spend the rest of her life with me, made me fall in lust, all the while waiting for me to leave with the thoughts of getting as much money out of me as possible for her to process her International passport and do her fiance visa paperwork.  I have never read about a scam like this.  So, my word to the wise here at this board is that you now know about this scam and if you are taken advantage of by this type of scam it is now your fault.

... in response to Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

Yeah... You know Bobby, I actually feel bad for you, and can't blame you either. This story made me blush about this Ukrainain gal....And it is also hard for you to spend so much money, I also know it wouldn't be matter to you if she would be here with you, you could handle everything and make things work for you. But, well, no luck.
Life in Ukraine such pain in .... that some people are confused, they just want to live normal, yes, it happens. Thanks God it didn't happen to me, because people there are different anyway, some of them have money some of them have none. I see, that girl's father is a pilot, they don't make big money, she makes 25 $ a months, goes to school... well, she was fine, and probably acted like she loves you because she probably needed more money, and maybe tried to find better way to get here with different kind of visa, do you see, she just wanted to get here, she didn't care about you. It is clear!
OK You say, she is young...brrr, just younger than you ( 19 years difference)Wow, you already then had to think about what could possibly happen.
For example, I am from Ukraine too, I started to search for any foreign man, just wanted him to be nice, I can't remember how many hundrens of them wrote me even from Hawai, one guy a millioner only he was 60 y.o.... do you think i would go there only because of this place and his money? Nope! No sense! I refused them all, why to lie?
Well I met my Jeff, my love, my life.... left my college and left my family. He spent big money to get me here, for young AM like him it wasn't easy, I understand, but it was worth it. And now he thinks that all what he spent doesn't mean anything, he got what he wanted the same as me, I got what I really wanted too. Without lie, things can work easy for both partnes. And we are happy!!!
And about you...it seems like you really wanted be honest with her, trusted to her, even liked her, you picked her up from other five ( I think you are not brave enough to come for one and only like my Jeff did :))) ) And, this is what you have got.
You should look for serious, grown up woman who needs a man to love her and protect her, not some young gal who goes to school:))) Just think about it:))If you don't match with the age, you have to look with warning.
I went to school, but I got a guy who is young, but it doesn't matter, if she had different goals...there is nothing you can do about it, it is already past.
So, my last words: don't be naive about things like this, think about it first before you send something or go somewhere, ask more about personality, dreams, goals, I mean ask more and more.
Good luck!!
Oksana

... in response to Re: Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by Jeff on Feb 7, 2002

O.K. Oksana,
you refused the 60 year old millionare in Hawaii, but just suppose Jeff had been older.  How much older would you accept if your Jeff had not been around your age?  You say that 19 years difference is ridiculous but what would you say is the limit of being reasonable?

... in response to how far would you go?, posted by Ramblin on Feb 8, 2002

First, that guy said that he knows that i need only money and said he has a lot of them, it made me mad, because he thought so, he was sure that he could buy me, becaue he saw my ballet pucture on the Internet.
Second, I didn't like him, I refused, because he wasn't for me. And they all wanted to wait for a year to write me and all were much older. I really liked one guy, he was older me for 14 years from CA, and I really wanted him to come and was serious about him, but he never called me even, and told me that he wants to wait couple more years.....it broke my heart about him completely...I wanted to see him, picture wasn't enough for me. I just stoped this humilating of myself and disappointed in this idea to find a husband... well two moths later Jeff wrote me...he was very interested, and even young, and called me,sent even money to buy a little present for me... God, it was nice at him so much, that I made my mind up to marry him!! It was just clean love, which I wanted. He paid a lot of attention to me, I couldn't refuse guy like this and i liked him a lot!!!
My Jeff couldn't wait to come and see me. I also liked this thing about him, and he said that I am only, and actually he didn't lie, because I was always with him and went to see him off to the airport. That was cute, because we cried there when he had to leave...
It was just right and natural!!

... in response to Re: how far would you go?, posted by Oksana on Feb 8, 2002

Your story, Oksana, is so much like mine! After about a year of receiving letters from AM I was so frustrated and almost gave up.Thats when I received letter form Jeff.I knew he is the one for me. He wrote nice letter bout him and his family and how close they are and how much his family means to him.I was so impressed and touched since majority of AM who wrote to me tried to impress me with pictures and decription how welthy they are and how much they has to offer(material things). But money is not what I was looking for.Anyway after 6 month of correspondence with Jeff he came to Belarus (country I'm from). We were so sure in our feelings to each other that we decided to marry in my country.He surprised me with ring he brought with him. He said that even though he never see me in person, by letters, by conversation on the phone, by sound of my voice he knew I'm the woman he was looking for.So we got married. Then he flew back, prepared all immigration papers for me and my daughter which took 6 months and came to Belarus again. Together we went for interview in Warsaw and all of us then come to USA.

... in response to Oh my gosh!!!, posted by Natalya on Feb 8, 2002

Dear Natalia!! This is very cool story!!:) Only we didn't have time to get married in my country, we just got engaged:))) And waited for wedding in USA, actually he didn't know if he will ever see me again because, he was so afraid of losing me + he wasn't sure how to do all this paper work, but thanks God, we were lucky, fortune always smiles honest and nice people who is in love!!:))

... in response to Re: Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by Jeff on Feb 7, 2002

My husband name is Jeff also :) We have been happily married for 6 years already.How long have you been married?

... in response to Hi Oksana!, posted by Natalya on Feb 7, 2002

Hi Natalya!!! I am married to My Jeff for a year!! We are having 2 moths baby!!!!

... in response to Re: Hi Oksana!, posted by Jeff on Feb 7, 2002

We have 2 children. Aleksandra is 10 and Ean 5. We live in NC.Where do you live?

... in response to Cool!, posted by Natalya on Feb 8, 2002

I live in Lamar PA! Pretty close!:)))))

... in response to Re: Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by Jeff on Feb 7, 2002

read your view and your thoughts,  please stay. Tim

... in response to Thank You Oksana.  It is great to, posted by tim360z on Feb 7, 2002

OK I will!!!! I get bored at home without any communication! I would talk to my baby, but he is actually only 2 moths old:))))) He is too young to disciss things  of life like marriage yet!!!!:))) I can call him AM thogh!:)))
Oksana

... in response to Re: Thank You Oksana.  It is great to, posted by Jeff on Feb 7, 2002


Your son is an AM? Oh no! Is he chasing 1 month olds?

I mean... that would be a "babe" half his age, right?

;-)

... in response to Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

Yeah... You know Bobby, I actually feel bad for you, and can't blame you either. This story made me blush about this Ukrainain gal....And it is also hard for you to spend so much money, I also know it wouldn't be matter to you if she would be here with you, you could hanle everything and make things work for you. But, well, no luck.
Life in Ukraine such pain in .... that some people are confused, they just want to live normal, yes, it happens. Thanks God it didn't happen to me, because people there are different anyway, some of them have money some of them have none. I see, that girl's father is a pilot, they don't make big money, she makes 25 $ a months, goes to school... well, she was fine, and probably acted like she loves you because she probably needed more money, and maybe tried to find better way to get here with different kind of visa, do you see, she just wanted to get here, she didn't care about you. It is clear!
OK You say, she is young...brrr, just younger than you ( 19 years difference)Wow, you already then had to think about what could possibly happen.
For example, I am from Ukraine too, I started to search for any foreign man, just wanted him to be nice, I can't remember how many hundrens of them wrote me even from Hawai, one guy a millioner only he was 60 y.o.... do you think i would go there only because of this place and his money? Nope! No sense! I refused them all, why to lie?
Well I met my Jeff, my love, my life.... left my college and left my family. He spent big money to get me here, for young AM like him it wasn't easy, I understand, but it was worth it. And now he thinks that all what he spent doesn't mean anything, he got what he wanted the same as me, I got what I really wanted too. Without lie, things can work easy for both partnes. And we are happy!!!
And about you...it seems like you really wanted be honest with her, trusted to her, even liked her, you picked her up from other five ( I think you are not brave enough to come for one and only like my Jeff did :))) ) And, this is what you have got.
You should look for serious, grown up woman who needs a man to love her and protect her, not young gal who goes to school:))) Just think about it:))If you don't match with the age, you have to look with warning.
I went to school, but I got a guy who is young, but it doesn't matter, if she had different goals...there is nothing you can do about it, it is already past.
So Last words, don't be naive about things like this, think about it first before you send something or go somewhere.
Good luck!!
Oksana

... in response to Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

for bringing up the most intriguing discussion we've had in weeks... and all troll free. What an accomplishment. This is how the board should go.

-blm

... in response to Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

her...and I am serious about this.  If you call it off,  please email me her info, 'cuz she sounds Ok with me.  Tim360z@aol.com

... in response to Bobby,  if you really feel uncomfortable..., posted by tim360z on Feb 7, 2002


I would love it.

Send her info to Tim. Apparently he has deeper pockets than you do.

And then Tania can send her tips on how to fleece Tim for even more money, since its OK. She might as well get as much as she can while she is still young and beautiful, eh Tania?

No... not it's wrong.

Shucks no.

Just a different way of looking at things.

Selling sex for money isn't wrong.... Not as long as Prositution is legal, it isn't. You are absolutely right, Tania. She might as well sell her beauty for all she can get...

... in response to Oh Bobby, DO THIS, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 7, 2002

I am not so its pockets but lack of judgement.

... in response to Oh Bobby, DO THIS, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 7, 2002

You know what you are paying for up front and the price is set.

-blm

... in response to Bobby,  if you really feel uncomfortable..., posted by tim360z on Feb 7, 2002

n/t

... in response to Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

it is so easy to be suspicious and label the girl a scammer.  Based on your evidence,  I would find it difficult,  at this moment to brand her as one.  And,  she is only 19...do you know how stupid most girls are here...at 19.  And yeah!  they can change their minds....girls perogative,  anywhere in the world...almost. Well,  not in the Congo.  And anyway you cut it---girls cost money!!!  And so do fiances and girlfriends and dates and hookers and wives and all of it and they always have.  They always will.  Otherwise,  you can be a lonely guy and look down at you hand...as your best friend.

   Now,  you have met and been with the girl,  not me,  so you should know alot more than what you have posted.  Thus far,  all you have written is plausible.  Student visa IS plausible.  You can choose to beleive or not to beleive her.  Myself,  I would cut her some slack here.  You know,  it is so easy to be suspicious of someone 6000 miles away.  Like a big LDR (long distance relationship).  And I have had those with AW only 200 or 300 miles away,  and they speak great English.  " I think what we have here is a failure to communicate".  And if you feel you just can't give a little trust now---how will you ever trust her in the future???

... in response to Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

Really, really touchable story. Man overcome the ocean to see his love, 19 years younger, she went out with him, showing that she is love with him, smiling and taking hands. Everybody around look at that strange couple and wonder: why such young beautiful, educated girl chosen such old and unattractive man, he must be very rich, or just really incredible man by himself.
Anybody would be happy to be on his place, going out with such beautiful lady, but he is lucky! What is man in love? Oh, it is an ocean of romantic, great surprises, flowers, serenade for lovely lady, expensive presents - it is the way men in the whole world win hearts of beautiful ladies. What about our hero? He gave lady 220 dollars for her passport and went home. Then send 150 dollars for Christmas gift (everything is thorough counted and included in tax declaration). Ad yet he is waiting her to make a whole commitment and bring him her young life to spend rest of his life with him. Well why his, maybe even her - how long live women in polluted, nasty Ukraine? Not so much, he even will have a possibility to have a second chance, and find 49 years younger girl after he exhausted first one (read newspapers). But our hero is worried: girl seems cost him more money. She estimate her young life more then he expected. OOPS, it's a problem. Well, our hero goes to Board and tell to the world what a awful scammers live in Kharkov (watch up!), in Ukraine, in FSU! Be careful, Russian are coming!
Do you know what is real difference between Russian and American men? If Russian is scammed with woman, he would never demean himself to say - I was fool. His pride will say him - OK, you spend amazing time with beautiful, great woman, everybody envied you and at least you have great memories. Really I don't worth such woman forever, I'd better find someone of my age who will be faithful to me and will be afraid to lose me. Who cares about arrogant beauty? It is how Russian man think.
But how Russian woman think, it is like this: our men will never  disappear. But while I am young and beauty I can make an advantage of it and see what is dolce vita. Who can show me it? New Russian? Oh, no, they never let me go without satisfaction. well, she see an ad of foreign marriage agency: Thousand of respectful, rich foreign gentlemen is coming to Ukraine to find wives. If you are young and beautiful, it is your chance. Yes, it is - girl thinks. And maybe I see my really prince of charm. He is coming - well, it is obviously not prince and not of charm, but he is foreigner, what means he is rich. What does it mean for him to spend couple of thousand for me - young and beautiful.
Can you see, that in many cases it is just different point of view. And not bad nature.

... in response to I am ready to cry, posted by Tania on Feb 7, 2002

I don't know what is!

... in response to I am ready to cry, posted by Tania on Feb 7, 2002

It sounded bad to me.  When a woman keeps coming up with new reasons for money that do not sound plausible, a man becomes suspicous.

... in response to I am ready to cry, posted by Tania on Feb 7, 2002

I don't know about other guys or cheeck from Russia or Ukraine, but I actually like to buy presents for my husband and make surprises. (I am from Ukraine, Odessa, got married at 19th age). What is the point to get all the time??? I feel cheap when I can't give antyhing back. I even have more confidence when i have my own money, and able to pay for little woman things by myself. + my husband is not a hourse to do all this work, he pays all bills and if I will push on him to work and demang more and more, he will become exhausted,and won't be able to think about something romantic.And love? Of corse, love doen's mean anything anymore. And what? Searching for another man? It is going to be the same situation afterwards, I am sure. Even with another man, younger he is or not.
Oksana

... in response to I am ready to cry, posted by Tania on Feb 7, 2002

No -- of course  I do not mean it. You know that --- but, if I give up on romance and true love - I might look you up since I have more money than is fair  - and we can do the wild thing on the Oriental Express followed by a romantic trip up the Nile to see the pyamids. Hey I think I will take you up on the idea of marrying a Russian woman close to my age. I mean if we do it the Russian way I can have my cake and eat it to. I can have my wife take care of the home and I can have you on the side for a mistress. Just kidding here also - but hey it works in Russia because the women do not see anything wrong with it evidently. Hate to tell you about this but American men are less likely to behave this way.

This is what we might hear Tania say as she is talking to one of her girl friends.

I met this American man, he is 19 years older than me. He is a very nice man but I like them younger but I did not let him know. Besides, he isn't even rich. I mean you think the guy should have a lot of money if he thinks he is going to have a chance with me being as old as he is. What is wrong with these guys are they stupid?

Tania's girlfriend (Tgf):    So Tania, what are you going to do?

Tania:   Well, if he is that stupid he deserves to be taught a lesson.

Tgf:  What are you going to do Tania?

Tania: I am going to pretend that I am interested and milk him for as much money as I can. I need to buy some new clothes so that I am more attractive to guys closer to my age or if he is older the ones with a lot, I mean a lot of money.

Tgf: Is this American man trying to take advantage of you? Is he romantic? What are you going to say if he figures out that you are only interested in taking advantage of him?

Tania:  No he is actually a nice guy but he is not for me. He is trying to be romantic but, when I look at those bags under his eyes and see his pot belly, I just do not get turned on. I can't help it. If he finds out that I am just trying to take advantage of him I will turn it all around on him and say he is not romantic by being concerned about his money - counting how much he has given me.

Tgf: But Tania, you are not romantic with him - how do you expect him to be such? How do you expect him to not be suspicious? Maybe it is not about the money but just wanting you to love him and him simply figuring out that the money issue is yours not his?

Tania: I do not have to be sincere. I am young and pretty.

Now, I wonder if Tania is even from the FSU as she does not know her Russian men well. I have some good men friends who are Russian. The ones I know who are single go for the young tight body women plain and simple. They are not interested in women their own age and both of these men trade them in for younger women. Evqueni is dating a woman 23 - he is 48. He told me this is the exception that usually at this time in his life he dates women in their mid to late 20's. He spends money on them - it just the cost of a young woman.

Tania is telling us that if you are a nice guy, older than her by more than 15 years she is not interested in you. However, if you are rich and will spend your money on her she will show you a good time as long as the money flows. And she expects you to understand that you have bought her and not complain about the money or count it. And in being bought, you will get the chance to win her heart if you can.

But gentlemen, Tania is correct about some things. She is telling you about many women. They do not want older men plain and simple. If you are really rich and also are a great guy and if you were great looking when you were young and some of that still shows through - you might get a younger woman if you also have the romance down pat.

Tania is telling you how it is. She talks about romance on one hand but can be boughten with money on the other hand. Go figure - that is the way many many women are. Russian women are no different than American women - they are just more honest about it.

... in response to I am ready to cry, posted by Tania on Feb 7, 2002

What you have to "see" is that the girl who is just looking for a foreigner to spend money on her, without true intentions, on her part is the last girl guys like I want to marry - deceitful in her intentions - especially when you have written letters for a while prior to meeting - and that person has laid out how they think and feel.  What you are saying is that the character of lies, deception and downright robbery is a "different point of view."  Yeah sure, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

... in response to Re: I am ready to cry, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 7, 2002

it is not romantic when guy 21 years older counts money for gifts. You will never find love. Love doesn't care about money. But if you want to buy bride you should look for what you can afford.

... in response to women wants romantic, not money, posted by Tania on Feb 7, 2002

I can understand what Tania may be saying. I know if i am going to marry a women 20 years older than I am, she had best have money.  I really don't see yet where this woudl be a scam yet.  But  I feel you have to keep in mind , she is still young. I don't even expect an AW that age, In most cases , to be able to handle things as we would like for them to. The one thing I am starting to see is it really takes a lot of understanding to marry a RW. And , if this is something you truly want.  I don't see this as being much different than any thing an american women will do, as far as the money goes. I may be wrong, but if I am going to marry an AW here. I will spend a lot of money on her. dinner, movie's trips, and even buy her clothes.  I would not even stop at the store without asking her if she needed anything, that is just me. question, do we get to where we are looking at them to close to see if they are scamming???  ha, I dated a lady here for 8 months and spend $$$$$ on her. never ask her to marry me, but, I don't feel bad about what I did.  I may be wrong, and if i am , please forgive me. but i knwo a lot of women here, in the good old usa, that will get a lot more form us. I can't blame anyone for trying to better them selves adn their position in life.

... in response to Re: women wants romantic, not money, posted by terry on Feb 7, 2002

Terry,
You can choose to be paranoid about getting scammed and stay home in fear or trust your own common sense.  The $300 extra Bobby is fearful of spending is really only equal to a couple of dates with an AW.  No one would consider the AW a scammer if things didn't work out either.  Yes, Terry, many guys have their microscopes out and are disecting RW.  Just be yourself, use common sense and you will be just fine.  Best of luck to you.
KenC

... in response to you're normal, posted by KenC on Feb 7, 2002

With all the crap that can go on sometimes people read into things. It is a fine balance. The more money a person has however, the easier it is to continue down a path that is starting to suggest scam.

... in response to women wants romantic, not money, posted by Tania on Feb 7, 2002

Too many of them want money... and lots of it.

You don't seem to realize what a big effort it is to travel overseas, find who you think would be a good wife, get all the paperwork done, pay all the fees, the embassy interview, etc. It takes well over a years time and a big expense. Even the trips to just meet the ladies are a huge expense and effort. There are some men who have spent 5 years looking for the right woman. Plus we have to avoid getting scammed at almost every step of the way because too many of the RW/UW are criminals who either want money, a green card, or both.

We have every right to be choosey and reject any woman with whom we don't fully trust or we with whom feel is wrong.

I expect the RW I decide to ask to marry to have the highest of moral character and proper behavior. I will not put up with any misconduct, especially when it comes to money or faithfulness.

-blm

... in response to Not all RW want romance..., posted by BarryM on Feb 7, 2002

I cannot understand why travel and other expences connect with woman's desire of money? Well, you travel here because it is YOUR paranoic idea that here are great amount of beautiful and unselfish Russian women, who will go anywhere with loving man and will give her life for him. It is you who dare to think that you are such knigh in gleam armour. Who cares about cost of this armour? Who cares about cost of ticket? Who cares about 5 years of searching? You can come to Russia and stay in small town, go to  factory or mill. And there will be lot of women around. Why not? No, you play one-actor-show, where are real drama, with bad accidents almost leading to death, but at the next day wonderful recovering, with fire destroing your home and everything you had, and in two months again renovated. Your friend, son, brother etc. write about your love to woman, but at least your wise is calling and say: he is married already on Russian woman, and don't  make delusions. Does anyone recognize himself?

... in response to Not all RW want romance..., posted by BarryM on Feb 7, 2002

You guys write scary things about UW/RW, sometimes when I talk to them, it makes me feel that I shouldn't do it ( I mean talk to them), some of them  are really  weird thinking....Why would she come here, what? For green card? Does it make her any happier than any normal AW?? What is a green card for them? I don't really get it....Even if she has a cool job, respect, many lovers etc..who would want to spend a lifetime with a mean woman? They stay alone for the rest of their lives anyway. It just doesn't make any sense to come here for just a green card. Or be a citizen...even if you are a citizen, you have to love this country and respect it, not to use it for your mean goals, I don't think people like this win, they stay with nothing, it is just very sad thing that they don't understant it. Some woman aren't satisfy with man they get... well, why to lie a man who thinks you love him, say "no" and search for the true love than. :))))
Oksana

... in response to Re: Not all RW want romance..., posted by Jeff on Feb 7, 2002

Your words and understanding are encouraging. Sometimes we do talk about the negative things too much, but we are venting our frustrations at bad situations. We are worried about our future lives just as UW/RW are and we want more out of life than we currently have. We want to meet the right women for us that won't harm us emotionally or financially and will help us have happy lives and good families.

-blm

... in response to Thanks, Oksana...., posted by BarryM on Feb 7, 2002

I don't blame you guys!!!:))))

... in response to Not all RW want romance..., posted by BarryM on Feb 7, 2002

Barry,
The "prize" you give to your future wife is YOU not the money and effort you spent on finding her.
KenC

... in response to Too expensive & difficult? Don't go, posted by KenC on Feb 7, 2002

you are correct but, sometimes when you think you are the prize you are not that at all to her.

... in response to Too expensive & difficult? Don't go, posted by KenC on Feb 7, 2002

Tania seemed to critisizing us. In her post above, she basically stated that we shouldn't be complaining if we got laid out of the deal. That's a lot of crap.

-blm

... in response to I realize that..., posted by BarryM on Feb 7, 2002

She is telling you how it is. You may not like it but it came from the horses mouth so believe and now you know why sincere guys have troubles - but also it shows how these women can resent older men trying to romance them if they are not rich.

... in response to It is not crap, posted by thesearch on Feb 7, 2002

Maybe the men are indeed rich, but they have a brain!

... in response to women wants romantic, not money, posted by Tania on Feb 7, 2002

You just miss the point.  Nobody wants to buy a bride.  Lack of class and respect are totally different matters.

... in response to Re: women wants romantic, not money, posted by hockeybrain on Feb 7, 2002

I agree with you! Normal AM wants somthing sweet and loyal, and wants to be loved and taken care of. Well, and when he gets someone who is not what he dreamed about....problems if RW had different planes!!!!:)) He-he!!:)))
But sometimes AM doesn't know what he actually wants, it makes problems too!!!!
Oksana

... in response to I am ready to cry, posted by Tania on Feb 7, 2002

a pretty woman in Russia or Ukraine is just that... Most of the men here are looking for sincere wives to spend our lives with. We discuss issues such as this in order to learn how to achieve success in our endeavor. Success means getting her here and marrying her. Until then, it's a difficult road with many hazards. Most of us are not as rich as you think. It is very expensive here but most of us are above average in money. We don't want to spend our money on a woman who is not sincere. We can find plenty of those type of women here and they cost less if you don't marry them.

A pretty woman in Russian or Ukraine is just that... not real for us until she comes here and marries.

-blm

... in response to Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

...your part in all this? Don't mean to kick ya while you're down but you need to accept some things on your side, to prevent this from happening again.

1) Kharkov?

2) 19 years younger?

3) Initiate the K1 after so short a time, after *one* meeting?

Then:"I figured I would get the paperwork set for her plus learn about her via email over the months...." Huh??

Sophisticated? I perceive her a rookie. If she was sophisticated she would have gone all the way and stuck it to you after she was here. Or played you a lot longer. Count your blessings, you be a lucky man.

You've never heard of this "scam"? It's one of the most common and easiest to pull off. Why? Well, desperate people do desperate things, on both sides. Its also why the trolls have a field day when these methods are employed. Sorry, but it seems to me you were somewhat of an easy target.

As long as people fail to conduct these things as "normal", albeit long distance relationships, people will continue to get burned. Rushing to solve any "problem" as quickly as possible will do you in every time.

Having said that, I admire your fortitude to post the details and aquire the perspective to shoulder some blame, thus learning from it.

... in response to What about...., posted by LP on Feb 6, 2002

My thoughts exactly - except your last sentence (I agree with Tania about the man taking his misadventures like a man and not publicly talking about it). Why someone would initiate the k-1 process after one meeting is an utter mystery to me. And I think that women under 25 years old should not even be considered in the first place. Its just asking for trouble.

... in response to Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

Bobby,
I know you may have your mind made up but take a deep breath and think logically about your situation before you bail.  First forget about your gifts.  They should not be added to your "expenses".  You wanted to make her feel good by giving her something unexpected.  You certainly cannot hold that against her now.  
Secondly, I would imagine that converting a Russian passport to Ukrainian International WOULD be an expensive thing to do.  When you consider that the girl lived in so many different areas of the country and even outside the country.  The police report required for a K-1 will be a very tough nut to crack in her case.  Again, it is not the girl's fault, but just her circumstance.
Thirdly, we have heard more than one story here about people being hospitalized in Ukraine for the flu and such.  Deckard even had to go to the hospital during the same period of time that you are talking of.  A very plausible story and SHE DIDN'T ASK YOU TO PAY FOR IT.
Fourthly, many R/W believe any gossip about visas and what their friends tell them about such things.  I know I had to squelch more than one such story when my wife was still in Russia.  You have to make her understand that the K-1 is tried and true and a much more reasonable way to go.  Just bear in mind that my wife came to America on a STUDENT VISA.  So, it is very possible.  The costs do not seem to be too far out of line either.

I suggest that, if you really do care for this girl, you play your hand out a bit further before you throw in the towel.  Make her understand that YOU understand and KNOW that a K-1 is the best for the two of you.  Have her send you the documents and take it from there.  Don't send her any more money and see what happens.
KenC

... in response to Hold on a second, posted by KenC on Feb 6, 2002

Ken,
I have also found it very amusing how FSUW believe everything they hear as if it were the gospel truth. I have had many a comical conversation with FSUW trying to convince
them that they have fallen for a myth - but they are *so* stubborn to concede! If it is about some place outside their country and they *heard* it is has got to be true! LOL

WmGo

... in response to Re: Gossip, posted by WmGo on Feb 7, 2002

n/t

... in response to Hold on a second, posted by KenC on Feb 6, 2002

$1200 actually sounds about right for the cost of a quicky student visa.  If you check the price of private language schools such as Kaplan, Berlitz, Geos, and others, the cost to apply, file for a student visa, 4 weeks tuition, room & board, and transportation can run anywhere from $1000 to $2000.  These schools fill up with people from all over the world.  And student visas can sometimes be extended. (I knew people in this area who came in on student visas, keep them current by enrolling in minimum required night classes, but work full-time day jobs {which may not be entirely legal, but that's another matter}.)  True, just because she applies for a student visa, it doesn't guarantee she'll get it.  But her friend did and told her she could also so that makes it as true as if the Almighty Himself told her to do this!

Sixthly, RW, God love 'em, simply do not understand money and Western finances.  In FSU countries, where a person can go months on the job without getting paid, a job can feel mostly like something that just keeps you busy.  For the average guy here, $1200 may represent a gross week's pay, but half of that goes to the gov't and the other half goes to the bank that owns your mortgage and title on your car.  It may take weeks or months to save up an extra grand in cash.  Does she care about that?  As Tania said above, RW care about romance, not about money.  That may sound sweet, but let's face it, unless both parties are ready to deal with these cold hard practicalities of life, they are not ready for a lifetime commitment.  It does not mean she is a scammer, but rather most likely a little girl with pie-in-the-sky fairy tale dreams of a wealthy and generous prince charming and is not ready for marriage.

... in response to Fifthly..., posted by Bob S. on Feb 7, 2002

n/t

... in response to Fifthly..., posted by Bob S. on Feb 7, 2002

I can understand the money sentiment.  My wife still has a hard time understanding the concept of a budget.  That, and the idea of income taxes drives her crazy!  Why should I give a third of my income to the goverment?  Needless to say, I don't talk too much about taxes with my wife.  Why frustrate her needlessly?

... in response to Hold on a second, posted by KenC on Feb 6, 2002

Thank God you met your wife... or you may have been taken for a bundle.

I think Bobby has this one nailed. Any ONE thing in his story is reasonable. When you put it all together, this is fiction made up by a creative scammer.

There's an old saying:

"When you hear hoofbeats, don't look for Zebras. Look for horses."

This one is a scammer stampede.

Bobby, you're smart. Cut your losses...

... in response to Ken... you're too nice, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 7, 2002

Mark,
Loved your zebra analogy.  Maybe you are right and things will not work out for Bobby, but where is the scam?  All I see is that the passport expenses were higher than planned.  She didn't ask for money for her stay in the hospital..did she?  The alternate plan of student visa is a valid one too.  Like I said above, she may be being misled by others there.  When Lena was still in Russia, she told me point blank that there was no way to get a student visa.  Her source of information was friends and friends of friends.  I researched it on the Net on the INS pages and thought we had a shot at it.  I had to convince her to do it.  Thank God she talked to some advisors at her university because they confirmed what I had thought.  Well, that is exactly how she entered the US; on a student visa.  

What I don't understand is that a guy like Ryan gets milked for 4 grand and still doesn't think he was scammed and now Bobby's girl needs a couple of hundred more for passports and paperwork and she is branded a scammer.  Doesn't make sense to me.
KenC

... in response to probably, posted by KenC on Feb 7, 2002

You see Ken does not have the experience of the scammer personally only vicariously. I am talking about the FSU ladies here. Although he is intelligent and understands these issues - a guy will simply be different after negative experiences more likely than not each time he trys something again that caused him pain.

The more times you get sunburned the more quickly you remember to put that sunscreen on to prevent it. When I first started traveling to destinations like Hawaii I did not use sun screen right away - I waited till I saw indications that such was needed. Well, after realizing that this did not always work with the application of sunscreen sometimes being a day late and a dollar short - I started using sunscreen as soon as I arrived at my sunny destination. I had to learn by getting burned. I think that many guys here are like this. Men who have never been burned more likely than not will be more trusting than guys who have been burned many times at home as well as with a few FSU women. They can shift from the edge of the spectrum of being too trusting to getting too defensive even cynical. We are all like Pavlov's dogs in some sense.

I think this lady is a scammer but Ken could be correct. Sometimes situations will emulate what a scammer would do and the lady is innocent. With the one lady that I had a great deal of time and experience with, some events surfaced that pointed to her potentially being a scammer. I reacted with defensive positioning and damaged the relationship by my actions. She was not a scammer.

As far as Ryan not thinking that he was scammed - I can not comment but from all he has written, I think he was. I commend him for not going on the attack but if he did not learn from it, he needs a care taker and his passive attitude is not an asset but a mental deficit and someone needs to protect that boy.

But, Ken is correct about it varies greatly what a guy will call a scam.

... in response to Ken could be right but me thinks most li..., posted by thesearch on Feb 7, 2002

I don't always agree with Ken but I respect his opinion in these matters. I do listen and what I get from him is that I should be a little more flexible and open-minded because every situation is different. I may argue the point with him on some of these issues but I do keep at least one eye open to his arguments.

-blm

... in response to probably, posted by KenC on Feb 7, 2002

they are a good alternative if the girl has solid academic credentials ( things a little tighter since 9/11).  K-1 is good,  but in some situtations a student visa or a B-1 is even better.  Also,  there are intern and work travel exchange programs which allow for a 4-6 month stay with paperwork for immediate employment.

... in response to Ken C is correct on the student visa's a..., posted by tim360z on Feb 7, 2002

there was a vocational school or college for foreign students to study English. I think you have to have been admitted to a school before you can get a student visa. This may be an alternative(albeit expensive) to a k-1. I don't have a link.

-blm

... in response to I saw somewhere where..., posted by BarryM on Feb 7, 2002

Of programs that cater to foreign students wishing to come to America to study English. They provide assistance to prospective students in acquiring the necessary visas (I-20, I believe).

It is definitely worth looking into.

- Dan

... in response to I saw somewhere where..., posted by BarryM on Feb 7, 2002

an intermediary who helps to shuffle all the paperwork.  My sister in Sweden runs University exchange programs funded by the Swedish and US govts and the UN.  Out of all the students she deals with from all over the world her favorites are the Russian and Ukrainian girls.  She finds them to be the nicest girls in the world.  Extremely intelligent.  And very sweet.  Some,  I have become friends with via emails and...they are.  No doubt about it.  And they are very good and loyal friends and they are definitely not in agency catalogs.  As in life...the easiest people to meet are the last ones you ever want to know.

... in response to probably, posted by KenC on Feb 7, 2002

Ken,

Look at the story:

"The next thing I hear she is very sick. She is in the hospital, there are expensive bills etc..."

This was definitely an attempt to get money for hospital bills. Why else would she mention that the bills were "Expensive?"

Remember the whole discussion about how women treat discussions of finances? How they get mad if a man mentions how expensive things are? She was telling him this so he would give her money. The reason she didn't send him a bill was that by this time he had wised up. You maybe need to read for more context... I'm sure Bobby could elaborate...

"After five days I asked her for the hospital address because I wanted to send her a really nice present. Oh, too late, she was getting out tomorrow"

My! Wasn't that convenient. And if he had waited three days, she would have been out in four...

"The next thing I hear is that *** her friend had a great way *** for her to get to the US, where she would not need a fiance visa."

Yeah, I know that your wife got here on a student Visa. But I'll bet you didn't set that up by wiring her FRIEND $1200.

You really want to give people the benefit of the doubt, I can tell.

But you know as well as I do that no Russian (or Ukranian) woman would have taken the money, and asked for the money that Bobby's "beloved" did.

Think about it. After your first week with your wife... how hard would you have worked to get her to accept $250 for gifts?

... in response to Why she WAS a scammer, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 7, 2002

Mark,
I agree that the hospital thing could be construed as fishy, but the bottom line is that she DIDN'T ASK FOR MONEY.  There have been more than one post here to confirm that hospital stays can be very expensive.  If she was truly a scammer wouldn't she have asked?  Why did her parents pay when she could have claimed that they were broke too?
On my first trip to meet Lena, I had brought a portable CD player.  I thought I could use it on the plane over and in my flat with the small speakers I also brought.  (News flash: Barry White works well in Russia too)  I also planned to leave it with Lena when I left.  I had to almost beg her to take it.  She didn't want to accept it.  But when it came time for her to get her visa and make preparations to come to America, she had no problem taking or even asking for the cash to cover those expenses.  (Which I only think is right) I think there is a huge difference between milking an American (can you say "Ryan") or covering related expense to coming here.
KenC

... in response to Why she WAS a scammer, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 7, 2002


I just wanted to put my 2 cents into this before I go to bed and before this thread gets buried 18 hours from now.

Only Bobby is qualified to really decide of course.

However, some of the major points that are used against the woman to count her as a scammer are actually plausible.

I agree that adding them up together makes for a "stretch", but each point on its own is actually valid to some degree.

1. When I was sick in the hospital in Ukraine, I was told I would be there for 2 weeks. I tried hard, and got out in 6 days. And I didn't know for sure when I would get out, until the night before. That's not too far off from Bobby's situation with his lady.

2. Expensive is all relative. The hospital bills may have been expensive to her, and they certainly could be expensive to her if she had not taken into account the possibility of getting sick.

Oh, and she's 19 I think? Maybe she lacks some tact that an older woman would have, in situations regarding explaining a need for money, and making sure she does not come across as not credible. She's still a tad young.

The big thing that does *not* seem right though, is the asking for money for the student visa part.

Oh well. Just a few thoughts.

Best of luck, Bobby, and if this girl doesn't work out for you, don't give up, keep trying.

-Deckard

... in response to Re: Why she WAS a scammer, posted by Deckard on Feb 7, 2002


"I agree that adding them up together makes for a "stretch", but each point on its own is actually valid to some degree."

I meant to say that the things that the woman said and did seem plausible, and that it seemed too premature to completely say that she was definitely insincere.

Blah, I was too tired...

zzzzzzzzzz

... in response to Re: Why she WAS a scammer, posted by Deckard on Feb 7, 2002

My wife had no problem accepting the money that I sent for her visa expenses but refused to allow me to buy her any "expensive" gifts (+$50). It is expected that the man pay for passports, pictures, translations, med exams, etc. to get the visa. At this girl's salary, it would take five months for just the medical and that is if she didn't eat, go anywhere, or write any e-mails.

Did she ask for any money for her hospital bills? Bobby only stated that there were "expensive hospital bills" (his words or her's?) and not that she even hinted for help paying them or making up for lost wages.

The student visa thing could be nothing more than a good friend's opinion (which in Ukraine carries a LOT of weight) and as Bobby mentioned he was severely chastised for doubting her friend. For those that do not know FSU women, once they have an idea of what is the best way to do something you had might as well go "try to teach a pig to sing" than to argue differently. And Ukrainians bring a whole new meaning to the expression of "friends" believe me.

Bobby, IMHO, has presented nothing to prove that this lady has or is attempting to scam him. Too many people here are too quick to make a judgement based on very few facts and some peoples slanted (sour grapes!) opinions.

Bobby (and everyone else here) needs to make and stand by their own decisions.

... in response to Re: Why she WAS a scammer, posted by Deckard on Feb 7, 2002


I just want to tell you and anyone else one more thing.

I almost lost my fiance a couple of times during the early time we were together because of failing to believe in her, and remembering instead all the negativity and "reality" I had read about on this message board. The bad situations stated on this board may not happen to you. Be careful to keep what you learn from this board in a "special" compartment in your head, and not let it taint everything else that your gut and heart is telling you. Keep them seperate, and don't let them blend together. Otherwise you will not be able to trust your heart or your gut feeling.

Good luck, Bobby,

-Deckard

... in response to Hold on a second, posted by KenC on Feb 6, 2002

I'll second Ken's opinion. I don't really see anything out of line with what you have presented as far as cost and circumstances. Don't be jumping to conclusions just yet.

The only thing that raises some suspicion with me is the student visa. Maybe because her friend has done it makes it seem like the way to go for her but I would balk at providing an affidavit of support in this instance as it would be much easier for her to jam on you. Insist on a K-1 as a show of commitment to you.

... in response to Hold on a second, posted by KenC on Feb 6, 2002

I appreciate the thoughts but am very discouraged at this point.  I would almost rather just move on.  She supposedly mailed off the documents, so I will see if something comes through and deal with it when it happens.

... in response to Re: Hold on a second, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

Bobby,
Yes, it can be discouraging, but if and when you find the right woman, it will all be worth it.  I am still not convinced that you haven't already found her either.  This girl had something that made you think you could live the rest of your life with her.  I hope it was more than a hard body.  The lable of "scammer" is way too premature.  I have seen too many guys here pull the plug and bail because there are a few bumps in the road.  Buck up buddy, it ain't easy.  With the language, culture and yes, even age differences miscommunication is a given.  How are you going to feel if her documents come as promised?  The alternate plan of a student visa isn't all that bad of an idea either.  My wife Lena, came here on a student visa.  It was a total "no pressure" situation for both of us.  When we decided to marry, it was on OUR time table not the INS's.  If you sincerely want a good marriage, wouldn't you want the girl to marry you for love and not because she ran out of time to think about it?
KenC

... in response to hey, it IS tough to do, posted by KenC on Feb 7, 2002

Good point, I like that

... in response to Re: Hold on a second, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

know if Ken may be correct on this. I always say go by the gut but it can be wrong especially when evidence starts to stack against a lady.

Here is a thought. Since you have pretty much written this one off why not continue with the I will not send you any more money mentality and see what she does? You will know best

... in response to Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

Thanks for the report on M0rdinson's Agency and the scammer you were engaged to.
The questions I would like to ask are.....Do you think that she was an isolated case with the agency or typical of what is in the agency? Do you think that M0rdison's was in on the scam or just negligent on who is using their services?
I was just reading your recommendation letter you wrote on their site and you state at the beginning of your letter that they do a good job screening their women.
Are you painting all the girls with the same brush now?

... in response to Re: Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by Quick Fix on Feb 6, 2002

A perfect indication of how good the agency is - is the fact that I asked them to remove my picture with the girl off their site a week ago.  All I can say is they obviously did not know this particular girl.  I have another internet acquaintance who went over to M@rdinson after me and ran into a pure gold digger ie. it was a great vacation and a learning experience but nothing more.  He also is not as happy today.  We both knew it was a high risk, high reward proposition.  Better to be a bit more realistic prior to going over and using an agency like that.

... in response to Re: Re: Safe to say my girl was a scamme..., posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

with her - it would be very interesting for you to inform the agency of her being a scammer and request that they remove her from their catalogue. Will they do it? What is their response? I think there is more to be learned from this than anything else regarding them.

I just had a fantasy -  why don't you blow a ticket on her to meet her in Prague or Turkey and not show up. One way ticket of course and one night only payed for at the hotel with a letter regarding her scamming and now the pay back. Of course, only if you are absolutely certain about her being a scammer.

... in response to Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

Bobby,

First let me say that I empathize with the great disappointment that you are going through. I know this does not feel good.

I also want to thank you for taking the time to share this story. Someone other than you will be benefited - meaning another fellow man that reads this and is able to see a scam sooner than otherwise when the behavior of his lady gets him to remember your story. It could happen to anyone.

I have been suspicious that the scammers are getting more sophisticated as the number of men have become more sophisticated in understanding scamming techniques.

In the final analysis, everyone can be scammed and the only way to eliminate it almost completely is to be totally untrusting every step of the way. The obvious problem is that the innocent woman you want to find becomes the woman subjected to untrusting behavior which can only damage the relationship. Where is the happy medium that affords one some level of protection against the scammer yet minimizes its effect on the innocent woman that you are courting? There is no good answer that I have seen.

I suspect that the men who have been burned will look at it differently with the number of bad experiences increasing defensive behavior.  To exaggerate would be the guy who has been  burned six times in a row - who finally  might develop the attitude of extreme caution with each step plain and simple figuring that he lost every woman in the previous six attempts what is losing another as a result of protecting himself. Of course, how many men have that type of persistence? And, many will be willing to spend that much  money for so much failure.

You are age 40 seeking a woman age 21? Sure it can work. However, you can pretty much count on going through quite a few introductions to find a woman who really wants to be with an older man regardless of what they tell you..

It can be done but all the while you will be subjected to a higher than normal number of scammers to sort through. And if that is what you have your heart set on, go for it and just accept that you are swimming in shark infested waters and accept the damage.

This age thing is a difficult one because there is no doubt it is easy to let the age gap spread as you look at these women because they will let you do it. However, even the sincere lady may start to change her mind about it all when she gets to your western country and she sees that many younger men are looking her way. She may think, did she settle too soon? Could she have gotten better? On the other hand, when an older man does captures the heart of a woman who is young and beautiful usually he appreciates it and the circumstance can find him working very hard at making that woman feel she is the luckiest woman in the world. A younger man is not as motivated as a general rule of thumb.

In the USA, the men who capture the younger men usually are the epitome of success and or fame. A sobering rule of thumb is compare the lady you are courting from the FSU to the typical lady that you attract where you live. The greater the difference physical beauty as well as age the greater the chances of future troubles. That is simple enough and said before numerous times.

Me, what am I going to do? I will probably swim in the shark infested waters until I succeed or get bitten too badly or too often. The problem is that I met one of our posters and his wife. She is gorgeous, young and totally in love with her husband who is a lot older than she.

I am not going to go as extreme as he has - although there are women 20 years younger showing me interest I have decided to try and keep my search to women ten to fifteen years younger.  

... in response to not the first nor the last, posted by thesearch on Feb 6, 2002

Luckily for me I still get young girls here - but the quality is not the same as I at least temporarily get in the FSU.  Not as many and the time gaps are increasing.  I basically have given up on American girls.  Why go for the nasty things here when I just know something great is there.  I just have to figure out or get lucky enough to find one who is not a scammer.  

It is just a natural reaction to reach for that brass ring.  Unrealistic views and expectations is a reason, perhaps the primary reason many of us are single.  

I have good memories, though also the sting of being scammed.  Better to remember the sting and move on, more wiser and stronger.

Thanks for the encouragement.

... in response to not the first nor the last, posted by thesearch on Feb 6, 2002

n/t

... in response to thanks, I think  LOL n/t, posted by KenC on Feb 6, 2002

asdf

... in response to Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

I should imagine that this is the most common trap that all us guys fall into when we travel over to the FSU.....start throwing cash around like its going out of fashion. I know because I've made the same mistake.

Its such a tempting mistake to make as well because a few hundred dollars is easily affordable to us, and yet it makes such a big impression over there...unfortunately the wrong impression. Yes , you may think that they look at us with all that cash to spend and are filled with admiration and wonder, but of course it is exactly the opposite.

When will we ever learn. If a girl likes you it is because of YOU and not because of how much money you have. Its the same everywhere, including the FSU. Much is made of how these girls are somehow different to the girls back home. Well in my experience they are 95% the same.

Is this girl a scammer who sits at home all day duping foreign men to come and visit her so that they will give her money or is she just a simple girl who saw an opportunity to make a little extra money and took it. If you give a beggar on the street $1 your being benevolent but if you give him $100 are you being scammed?

I'm not preaching here because I've made the same mistake. You fall for someone, maybe go and see them once or twice, and then decide to make arrangements to bring them over on a visa. The visa process takes 2 or 3 months and in the meantime you start sending them money. Well, after all they are going to be your fiancee and you want to make sure they are going to be alright. Right ? Wrong. If they have managed to survive the whole of there life up until they met you then a few more months should not be any problem.

If it is a problem then ask yourself the question, do they like me or my money?

STEVE

... in response to Re: Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by SteveD on Feb 6, 2002

I think it greatly corrupts the relationship,  or even in the early stages changes it into a money game.  With any introduction of money,  even a small amount the dynamics change.  Is it you or is it the money???  A little money here is a good deal of money there...it is tempting,  for any girl, I am sure.  I think that by sending money we inadvertently may turn a nice girl into what we may term a scammer.  Some,  do not have a good sense of finances and beleive our wealth is like limitless.  I find the money thing to be a conundrum and something for any guy to be aware of.  One very nice girl in Ukraine who I have corresponded with over an 11 month period has never never asked for or even mentioned money.  Over the Christmas Holiday, a guy previously from this board and his wife were in her city and they were nice enough to meet with her and give her some small gifts from me.  There was also a Christmas Card with $25,  I was very tempted to give her more...but,  I held back on the $25,  as I felt it was just the "right" amount.  Here,  it would definitely be considered a small amount of money.  Like a cheapo.  But,  for her,  I know the small gift was a sign that I cared.  The dynamics of our close friendship have not really changed because of this small money gift.  I do think if I had sent her like $200---there would be a change,  probably a negative one.  I could be all wrong,  but I beleive that flashing money or sending too much money before the K-1 is approved can be a bad idea.  The guy becomes the "money tree".  Even for a nice girl.  Money sends the wrong signals for a good and healthy friendship,  and for any possible future you may have together.  Its like letting a kid loose in a candy store---you just should not do it.  Thats my mileage,  Tim

... in response to I tend to agree with you on the money th..., posted by tim360z on Feb 7, 2002

n/t.

... in response to I tend to agree with you on the money th..., posted by tim360z on Feb 7, 2002

I think its a whole different ballgame and sending $ for english lessons and pocket $ is a good thing to do. After all you do plan on marrying her and you have to start developing a trust for each other. You'll also want her to speak english as well as possible on her arrivial, thus when you call her you should see results. And if you don't see results in her progression of learning, then maybe she isn't spending the $ as you agreed and that could be a 'red flag' warning.

... in response to Re: Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by SteveD on Feb 6, 2002

You can bet I will be much more likely to give a girl I am considering bringing back here nothing for a very long time.

... in response to Re: Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by SteveD on Feb 6, 2002

Any smart girl will tell you that women,who think that money don't bring them happiness.  It is because they do not
know where to shop.      I did not think this, it was in a book from a well know texan writer, he wrote Tender
Mercy.

... in response to Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

I've been thinking about this a lot and I've come to the conclusion that it's best to not be so trusting when it comes to money. Although it hasn't been brought up much lately, the typical scams involving visas, passports, and airline tickets seem to be common. I personally would not want to send money for airfare... I would purchase it directly even though it would cost more. I'd rather have an advocate employed in my service for dealing with payments for paperwork, visa, passport, etc. It's a matter of scam proofing the situation and an scamming RW would back out of the process before it went all the way.

Some of the vets on here may disagree. I know there needs to be some trust with money, but I don't think it should be that much. I'd rather state up front that I'd take care of all the financial arrangements. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a general plan to do this. Perhaps others on here have some experience.

-blm

... in response to Is there a way to use a 3rd party on the..., posted by BarryM on Feb 6, 2002

I had been corresponding with a lady in Bishkek for over a year.  Yet I did not trust her.  I did not want to go to Kyrgystan so we agreed that I would pay for her to meet me in Kiev.  At first, I wanted to make sure that she didn't scam me out of the $4oo air fare and tried to get her a ticket myself instead of sending her the money.  When it turned out that I was unable to get the ticket, I sent her the money at the last minute for her to buy the ticket locally.  When she arrived in Kiev, I knew one thing.  I could trust her.  What if I had bought the ticket for her, how would I know that I could trust her to spend money that I give her for which it was intended?????

... in response to I disagree, posted by Ramblin on Feb 8, 2002

I'm glad it worked out for you. Too many times though, some of these ladies are scammers who will string you along for a while and wait for opportunities to get cash. There have been many stories on here about guys sending their girl air fare only to find out she took the money and ran with it. It is a judgement call and I personally would rather not leave anything to chance until I had confidence and trust in the girl.

-blm

... in response to Is there a way to use a 3rd party on the..., posted by BarryM on Feb 6, 2002

Barry, excellent point.  What would have been nice is if I had an advocate over there walking the girl through the steps to get her paperwork ie going with her and paying the necessary amounts, ensuring things were correct etc.  That would be a service well worth the money because it prevents this type of scam.  Soem agencies will do this.  Another reason not to ever think of using M@rdinson because they wash their hands clean of even trying to do that for you.

... in response to Re: Is there a way to use a 3rd party on..., posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

We had a lot of speculation a while back as to whether or not they were an honest agency.  One stroke doesn't make them a dishonest agency but maybe we'll get another report on them in the future.  

I hope you add the girl to a scammer site so she can get the attention she deserves.  Add the family too.  I should have done that with mine.

... in response to Thanks for telling us the agency name, posted by BubbaGump on Feb 6, 2002

maybe it will help someone else out.

... in response to Re: It's not too late to add her to the ..., posted by Richard on Feb 6, 2002

I was coommenting on BubbaGumps comment about adding this woman to the scammer lists.  My point is / was that adding her to the scammer lists does not have to be instantaneous.  After reading other peoples posts, I agree it is a good idea to be cautious. Don't read too much into my post.

... in response to Re: It's not too late to add her to the ..., posted by Richard on Feb 6, 2002

Richard,
Re-read the original post.  What has the girl scammed?  $640?  Including gifts?  So what if her passport ran more than expected and she had to grease a few more Ukie police.  She has not done anything out of line yet.  You guys are so paranoid of losing a couple of bucks that you lose all touch with reality.
KenC

... in response to tell me what she scammed?, posted by KenC on Feb 7, 2002

until she definitely ran off with the cash and cut all communications. Discouragement is one thing, but it is not a scam yet. When someone says they have been scammed, I usually assume they have eliminated all doubts before they post. A lady getting cold feet is not a scammer, even if she spent the money on passport, paperwork, etc. $650 is not that much in the big scheme of things, but it is a lot in Ukraine. Scamming is another form of mail fraud, just like the infamous Nigerian scams. It is a big underground industry in Ukraine and Russia now. The funny thing is, the more the word gets out that men are getting scammed, the more likely that there is less men going to try to find a RW/UW bride. Of course the scammers are going to get more clever and inventive. The Shane Neff's of the world may be doing us a favor... by decreasing the competition of new guys looking in Russia and Ukraine. Big agency owners will come under increasing competitive pressure to verify sincere women and eliminate scammers. In the future, there may be guarantees and even cash rewards for identifying scammers and cons. Agencies are already being affected by the business recession so they are going to have to be more reliable or fold. Bigger agencies are also going to have to clean up their act and screen their clients as well. "Sex" tours with harlots is going to stink up the reputation of a lot of agencies. Agencies are going to have to clean up their act or they may be put out of business by congress.

-blm

... in response to tell me what she scammed?, posted by KenC on Feb 7, 2002

Ken,

Stop being such an apologist for all things Russian!

$640 isn't nothing. And don't forget that she was Tee-ing him up for more.

She tried to get "Hospital" bills out of him. (Convenient how she suddenly got better when he tried to find out which hospital she was in...don't you think???)

Then she wanted to work a "Student Visa" tuition for almost $2000. All he had to do was send money to a "friend"? Come on, Ken. I KNOW you're smarter than that!

The ONLY reason he only got taken for $640 is that he wised up.

And more importantly, he wasted a trip because of her. (Yes I know he shares some blame... but I think it was his first time over... all rookies make mistakes. I know I sure did...)

He can only go over a few times a year at most. Now its one less. He lost plenty.

A scammer is any one who is insincere. The amount of the transaction isn't determined by her. It is determined by how fast the "Mark" wises up.

She would have played him for thousands if she could have...

... in response to Only because he pulled the plug!!!, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 7, 2002

You see it how I see it.  The reason I wanted to post the aftermath is because I have been over to Ukraine or Russia six times.  I thought I had a lady of beauty and more important character.  One thing after another is just too much.  In my first post I also did not mention how she was claiming a professor was demanding money as well to pass her class............hinting that she wanted money from me to pay him off, but not directly asking for money.  The bottom line is I really only got nice letters when she received money.  The rest of the letters were telling me one problem after another in her life implying that she needed more money.....obviously she did not love me for me.
NEXT..........

... in response to Re: Only because he pulled the plug!!!, posted by hockeybrain on Feb 7, 2002

Sending $20 once in a while for the internet cafe is one thing, but paying her bribes is another. She can go to community college here. Her degree may not be worth anything here anyway.

Perhaps, next time(next lady) you should talk to Jack about some personal services over there to pay some of the expenses without giving her money directly. It may cost more, but she is not going pocket any cash unless she gets a kickback.

-blm

... in response to Only because he pulled the plug!!!, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 7, 2002

Mark,
Re-read the original post.  The student visa was $1,100 INCLUDING AIRFARE.  Hmmm, $1,110 minus $800 to $900 for the airline leaves $200 to $300 for the I-20 documents.  What a windfall!  Karkov (sp) is home to many universities.  It only stands to reason that they have coached more than a few student visas.  The thing that made Lena's student visa fly is that she was a student at the time.  Sorry, but it sounds very reasonable to me.  And forget the $640 number altogether.  Bobby gave her $220 for everything.  When she claimed that she had to grease a few more palms, he sent an additional $300.  How much the $150 he sent at Xmas was for gifts is unclear.

OK, Mark, just follow my "logic" for a little more OK?  A few months (weeks?) (days?) ago, Bobby was ready to commit to this woman for the rest of his life.  Today he calls her names (scammer) and gives her the boot because of her claim that the costs are $350 more than they expected?  Something wrong with that equation in my mind.  ($300 extra sent + $50 from Xmas money gift)
KenC

... in response to back up, Mark Twain, posted by KenC on Feb 7, 2002


But, he was in love with her after one trip.

I think that is common. The main problem was that he rushed into a "relationship".

I think that the fact he did not give "facts" is simply a case of the way he wrote his narrative.

Maybe I was reading between the lines, and you were just trying to see the facts.

For instance... the hospital. He doesn't say that she asked for money... but he certainly indicates that she was hinting for it. You know how that goes. Women can certainly "Ask" for something without actually "Asking."

In fact, this is a common scammer move.

Haven't you guys got the letters from the girls at agencys (after you've maybe written two lettres to them) "Thursday is ________ (Insert holidy or whatever here) and it is tradition in our country to give flowers or presents to a woman. I wish you were here so you could be here with me on this special holiday. I will be so lonely. No one will be buying me presents, and all of my friends will get them..."

Now... what is she REALLY saying here? (Oh, this letter is traditionally followed up by the agency sending you a message about all of the services they offer.)

Also in his narrative, there was the part of the Student Visa and friend. It certainly was IMPLIED that she was saying send $1199 to her friend, so they could arrange the student Visa.

Add that to the hospital stay that "ate up extra expenses" thus explaining why the money he sent for DHL shipping was sued somewhere else.

I keep telling you guys... any ONE thing... yes. Sure.

You add them all up. No way. She went from being an angel to being a hardluck case over night? Hmmm.. and this just happened to coincide with the "engagement?"

Doesn't this all seem just TOO much?

Again, usually our instincts are right in these things. And Barry's instincts are telling him to cut and run.

... in response to Agreed in Part... BUT, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 7, 2002

I would dump a hard luck case. It's sad, but I'm not a charity, I'm looking for a wife. If she doesn't have her act together then I'm going to take a walk. I've already been through a co-dependant hard luck type of relationship and I don't plan on having another one. Once we're married, it becomes a completely different issue, but prior to that... no hard luck cases. I'm sympathetic and I give to the church to help the poor and needy, but I'm not going to adopt one.

Americans are too generous in the world and we are resented for it. It's time we held back the purse for a while because we're getting bit on the behind by those we are giving to.

-blm

... in response to back up, Mark Twain, posted by KenC on Feb 7, 2002

....for a good wife...its the deal of a lifetime.  Its a bargin.

... in response to Safe to say my girl was a scammer, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

I gave her 220 cash when I left, but $20 was for her to get home from the airport - I knew higher than it cost, but perhaps my generosity in always wanting to give her a little more than things cost worked against me.  Anyway, I gave her $650 ultimately to get her part of the fiance visa done plus to email me from an internet cafe any time she wanted when I knew it should only cost $125 at the most.  Maybe I gave her too much rope, but when I invested all the time and money I wanted to be sure - and a little extra money was all I had to waste.  Sometimes you have to learn the hard way.

... in response to Re: One other thing, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

The agency I used was M@rdinson.  I highly recommend you stay away from them even if they give you a clear cut answer how well they know their girls.

... in response to Re: Re: Second other thing, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

I have just been on their site, M&rdinson.
I had clear all of the cookies before going.
I didn't stay two minutes, just to read a page, there was three cookies when I left them,  hotlog, spylog and
m&rdinson.
Everything has to be done their way, at no time can you just correspond with the girl or speak to her on the
phone on your own.  They even will hold the candle for you in due time.  The girls must get a %.
Also many more people must get scam, but they are too proud to tell about it.

... in response to Re: Re: Second other thing, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

the air clears from that mess. It's another red flag over M0rdinson.

-blm

... in response to You should post a scammer report when..., posted by BarryM on Feb 6, 2002

Barry,
What are you talking about?  M@rdinson did EVERYTHING they promised.  read Bobby's post from a week or two ago.  The girls were everything and MORE than what was shown on their site.  They were real and M@rdinson set up the meetings for Bobby.  The rest is up to the guy.  Just because things don't go as planned, doesn't mean the girl is a scammer or the agency is bad.  Sh!it happens.  What does an agency have to do?  Hold your friggin hand until you say "I do"?  Get real.  
You know what?  Your right.  Too many scammers and too many bad agencies, you are better off staying home!
KenC

... in response to what did the agency do wrong?, posted by KenC on Feb 7, 2002

One thing about L@fetimep@rtners is they follow up on the girls.  They make sure paperwork matters go smoothly, teach the girl English, continue correspondence until she is in the US with you - and then I think they even talk with you when you are married.  M@dins#n was great for meeting girls on their site, putting you up in a nice flat, giving you translation if you needed it but after that it is a big flat 0.  If L*fetimep@rtners could get rebuilt (restock the pond) they are the full service agency to go with as far as I am concerned.  Ken, I have been through L*fetimep@rtners, two separate tours, on my own twice and have used M$rdinson.  My most fun had to be the AF@ tour to ST. Petersburg.  As far as accomplishing my goal of meeting and accomplishing a fiance visa - L-fetimep@rtners would have been the best if I had found a girl without a kid who after she thought she was coming to the US had to have a Mercedes etc.

... in response to Re: what did the agency do wrong?, posted by hockeybrain on Feb 7, 2002

nt

... in response to what did the agency do wrong?, posted by KenC on Feb 7, 2002

Waving a red flag means caution. The words is still not out on M0rdinson yet. Some folks may have a good experience with them. Just like "Faces". There is suspicion, but not definate evidence of scams. It's a wait and see if they get their act straight.

-blm

... in response to I'm not accusing the agency just yet..., posted by BarryM on Feb 7, 2002

Red usually means stop

... in response to Actually Yellow Flag means caution, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 7, 2002

you get more information that they are honest and have their act together. If any M0rdinson representatives want to come here and discuss things, that's fine. I say, keep your ear to the ground and see if guys are getting good results or being scammed.

-blm

... in response to what did the agency do wrong?, posted by KenC on Feb 7, 2002

Ken,

According to the story, Bobby had a friend who met a girl who also tried to fleece him. Bobby contacted the agency, and they have not and will not remove his girl from the site.

That's a black mark for an agency.

Any agency that knowingly allows a scammer to stay on their site needs to be flagged as dishonest.

Let me give you a counter example. The Scanna situation that happened with me that I related earlier.

After my FIRST contact, Scanna took action. They contacted the girl to get her side of the story. Then they updated her profile to -- at the very least -- specify that she was not intersted in American men. This cost them money, since most of their customers are American.

Then they followed up with me again to find out whether she EVER asked me for ANY money. (The amount in question was she asked if she could have the money for the rose, instead of the rose.) If she had, they were going to REMOVE her from their site.

THAT'S how a reputable agency works.

Ken, you dealt with a reputable agency. You never, to my knowledge, dealt with one that was not honest.

In this regard, you are quick to defend all agencies because the one you used was good. Well, all agencies are NOT good. In fact, MANY are very dishonest.

Don't scream at the guys who are trying to pass on hard earned knowledge about suspicious actions of agencies and girls.

They are just trying to help those out there who are going over.

It's what this forum is all about, Ken. You caught lightning in a bottle. Not eveyrone is so lucky.

The rest of us must be cautious...

... in response to GOOD agency Vs. BAD agency, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 7, 2002

I agree with you Mark.  Quite a while back, I was thinking of using Romeo and Juliet for my travel arrangements to Kherson because the price was the best value I could find.  Then one of their ladies turned out to be a scammer and Juliet refused to remove her so I refused to do business with that agency.

... in response to GOOD agency Vs. BAD agency, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 7, 2002

Mark,
Yes, I dealt with a good agency, but believe me, even they have bad girls.  We personally know of them too.  How much responsibility does an agency have to shoulder?  Where does the responsibility of the AM start?  I know you are never going to get a 100% anywhere.  So what if a guy thinks one of the girls is a gold digger.  That is only his opinion.  What is it based on?  Did she turn him down?  Is she "high maintenance"?  Is it "sour grapes"?  It is all so subjective that no one can tell the truth.  The agency that Bobby used introduced him to a number of fine women, what happens from there, is up to Bobby and the girl, not the agency.  If things don't work out, blame the agency and label the girl a "scammer," but please don't think any responsibility falls on the AM.  Is it Bobby's insecurities that spotlight the negative possibilities?  Maybe he isn't comfortable with the age difference.  Maybe she is just too beautiful for his ego to handle.  If you look for the negative possibilities, you will find them.

The fine agency that I used warned me against getting too emotionally attached to Lena.  They told me that she was a difficult client and that she was not serious about getting married or coming to America.  Many men (younger & richer) had unsuccessfully tried to woo her.  I even contacted an AM that had tried to get her to do a K-1 with him.  He bad mouthed her like crazy to me.  I laughed after I spoke to him because I knew his "opinion" of her just reeked of sour grapes.  Later I found out that as he and I were having our conversations, he was contacting Lena to see if she would reconsider his proposal.  If I had just accepted the agency and this guy's opinion, I would have run for cover.  Lena could have easily been labeled a scammer because she wasn't keen on getting married and never wanted to relocate to America.  Instead, I had to find out for myself.  With my own eyes and ears and heart.  Personally, I felt if a girl doesn't want to come to America, it is a GOOD sign.  Then if she does come here, it is for reasons other than the plane ticket.  What guys here have to understand is that anyone can contact the hotties in Russia, but like the song goes, "Are you man enough to be  man?"
KenC

... in response to I married a scammer!, posted by KenC on Feb 7, 2002

Ken,

A Man certainly bears a lot of the responsibility. Almost all of it, in fact. Because with everything this board provides, no one should be taken by a scammer.

However, with your Lena (Scammer... oh boy, does she know you called her that???) you can't compare.

High maintenance. Choosey. Picky. Doesn't want to leave Russia. These are not bad things.

But I'll bet Lena never hit you up for money so she could bribe her professor in college. I'll bet she never took money you sent her for shipping K-1 Visa papers, and spent it on something else.

I'll bet she never told you to send $1199 to a friend of hers so she could get over here sooner.

In short, from what you've shared about Lena, I'll bet she never hit ANYONE up for money.

There IS a difference between a scammer and your wife.

(Thought you'd like to know :-)

... in response to She's no scammer, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 7, 2002

Mark,
Of course I don't REALLY think Lena was/is a scammer.  She is the most sincere woman I have ever met in my life.  She is honest almost to a fault.

I thought I should post this to make sure that EVERYONE knew I had my tongue firmly in my cheek with the post above.
KenC

... in response to of course, posted by KenC on Feb 7, 2002

;-)

I only said what I said because you keep drawing prallels between your wife and Bobby's "girl"

All I am saying is that you can't really do that because your wife is a whole breed apart from what Bobby was dealing with.

... in response to You should post a scammer report when..., posted by BarryM on Feb 6, 2002

Was the first red flag all the girls looked like models?  He could add her to the Firstdream scammer site.

... in response to You should post a scammer report when..., posted by BarryM on Feb 6, 2002

Any idea where the best place to post a scammer report is?  I would be more than happy to give name, number, address plus post a picture of this scammer.

... in response to Re: You should post a scammer report whe..., posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

Also, send details to Jack and he'll add her to Firstdream's scammer page

... in response to Re: You should post a scammer report whe..., posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/results.php?page=russian&archive=00142&post=61372&bold=blacklist

Also antiscam.net is another good one.

-blm

... in response to Re: One other thing, posted by Bobby Orr on Feb 6, 2002

how many girls used this type of scam, as it seems the easiest to pull off and 1 of the best paying. Being already engaged they have gained your trust and have you where they want you and after all con is short for confidence.
But you must also look in the mirror and re-evaluate what your looking for and instead of going for some eye-candy 21 yr old hottie, go for a 27-32 yr old beautiful, more mature and realistic lady. I think your long term chances of success will then be greater...aloha

... in response to I've always wondered, posted by Stan B on Feb 6, 2002

....lol, I can't let this just go by.

At the time, how was his experience different from yours, other than the age spread?

He also qucikly thought she was the "one", and he took a lot more time than you.

My point: There but for the grace of God.....

... in response to Sorry Stan,...., posted by LP on Feb 6, 2002

and maybe it was the luck of the draw, but mine has turned out quite well. Not that I expect you to believe me, but maybe after a few years you might concede that I just might have a chance. I'll also assume that you'll still be dating 20 yr olds. So you enjoy what you have, I know that I'm enjoying mine...aloha

... in response to big difference, posted by Stan B on Feb 7, 2002

...just yankin your chain a little, ya know me.

I will concede you have a chance, after a few years.
Hell, you've got a chance now.

Your saying it "turned out well" strikes me as a tad odd though. Considering the short time involved, the only thing thats turned out well thus far is the visa process. I'd need more time before I made such a statement.

lol, I'm off the 20 year olds, she is in her early 30s.

... in response to Hey, I was...., posted by LP on Feb 7, 2002

w/o Yoe around you need someone to do a little friendly sparring with. As for the 'it turned out well', I mean our start. Because until she got here and we started this leg of our relationship, I wasn't absolutely sure how it would turn out. How her and Katya would adapt and how our lives together would mesh. So far I couldn't have expected better. We agree on all the big things and agree to disagree on some of the smaller ones. Katya has called me her daddy since the day of our marriage and Marina has even acquired a taste for american humor and is now a Seinfeld fan (she loves Kramer :-)
Anyway theres no hard feelings, because I'm sure you know my skin is a little thicker than that...aloha

... in response to I know, posted by Stan B on Feb 7, 2002

..You meant to say it was "turnING out well". I hope it continues to do so, given the big chance you took.

Still, I'm fascinated at how you perceive your situation was somehow a "big difference" from his. No matter, its a done deal now anyway.

Btw, those 20 year olds? I was not dating them, they were dating me. Its a byproduct of my job (lol, not always as sweet a byproduct as people think), not my prefering them.

Thas all over now anyway as I've been snagged by a good one and have settled down.

At any rate, good luck "Daddy" :-)

... in response to I've always wondered, posted by Stan B on Feb 6, 2002

Stan, point well taken.