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Guys we saw something again yesterday that I have seen several times before, this time with a new, little twist, and I thought I would bring it to your attention.

I have recommend for some time that when men travel overseas to visit one (or two) ladies, that they get there own flat, outside of the ladies help.

Men will be meeting one of two types of ladies, the sincere lady and the scamming lady.
With the sincere lady she will want to help you to get a flat close to her, which is only expected. She will in most cases be able to get you a good flat at a good rate and more than likely she will know the flat owner. Over the past four years about 40% of my clients who went to meet one lady knew with-in the first day or two (sometimes with-in the first hour) that this was not the woman who was going to be his future wife. Now in the old days many guys had to just bear it and they would spend the next 5 or 6 days with this woman, try to enjoy himself, all the time wishing he could meet some of the thousands of beautiful ladies he was seeing everyday. The situation was made even worse for the guy who might have wanted to tell this lady good-bye but it was now so much harder as she knew where he was, his phone number and quite possibly could even get a key to enter his flat. The flat more than often was very close to her and not so close to the center of the city, where there is life, where there are thousands of beautiful ladies walking around, where there are clubs and restaurants and shopping and outdoor cafes. Once you get the flat that your lady has gotten for you and you realize there is no chemistry with this woman, it is just harder to break away.

This is why I strongly suggest to men to get there own flat close to the center. As it is,
most men are in the center everyday as it is. If a man realizes that there is no chemistry with the one lady he went to see, it is easier for him to break away, to meet other ladies.

I urge men to get there own flat, just to tell the lady he has taken care of it, and after you meet this lady, after you have spent a few hours with her, then do you tell her your address and phone number. If things work out with the woman, everything will be fine. And now if things did not work out with the woman, you readily have more options.

Now regarding the scammer type lady who wants to get your flat. The scenario that happened yesterday I have seen happen over and over again. Many of you out there may have had this happen to you.

A client from England arrived into Odessa yesterday. He had met a lady a few months back, they had spent about three days, off and on, with each other. He was now going back to spend about 6 days with this lady. Over the course of the past months he began to wonder about many little things. His lady was writing a lot of little messages to him, one almost every other day and of course the agency was translating and sending these messages to him. Remember with crooked agencies they will charge the same to translate a letter with three or four sentences, as they do a letter with 100 sentences.  A lot of little letters is easy money.

Most of your sincere ladies will write more than three or four sentences about themselves and this is one little trick that many of you need to watch for. Now I also need to point out that there are many sincere ladies who receive a lot of replies and they just get tired of writing long letters to guys who may be coming to the FSU in 5 or 6 months and these ladies will write short replies, as they have seen it time and time again where a guy just stops writing. Many of these ladies would prefer to write a guy who they think is coming to see them with-in three months time. Many of these ladies also dislike the longggg correspondence time and would just as soon to just meet you.

After this guy starting getting some concerns he contacted me, told me his story and after hearing his story I told him I would also have some concerns. He also mentioned that the lady had offered to find him a good flat in the center and she told him a price, which was $95 a night. I told the client that was crazy, that there were many fine flats in the center for $45 to $55 a night. After a few days he authorized me to get him a flat and pick him up from the airport. His girlfriend then became angry with him, she stopped taking his calls. He called me from Warsaw and said he didn’t know what to do, should he go onto Odessa, or just take the next flight back to London. I told him he would have to make that choice, but if she was un-available to meet him, then I could help him to meet many sincere ladies in Odessa. He decided to come. We picked him up at the airport the next morning and guess who else was there to greet him, the lady he was hoping to see! We took the two of them to his flat and guess what?  The very same flat that she was trying to rent to him for $95 a night, was the same flat we were renting to him for $45 a night!

So guys, sometimes it is best to get your own flat without the ladies help.

What we (FirstDream) do is to deal directly with the flat owners. Our people charge $5 a night over the flat owners expense. I assure you, these flat owners in the center of Kiev, Odessa, Moscow, St. Petersburg, Dnepropetrovsk know what there flats will rent out for a night, and it’s not no $25 a night! Of course location is everything. If a guy wants to be 25 minutes from the center, he can find a flat for $20 or $25 a night. I am not so sure it is so safe to be away from the center and when you think about the price you pay for taxi’s to take you to the center everyday, take you back to your flat, the time it takes to hail down a gypsy taxi, now you have spent $35 a day for your flat and the taxi expense, not to mention the time you have saved.

Sure, it is possible to deal directly with the flat owner and pay the flat owner $45 a day for their flat in the center. The flat owner does not speak English more than likely, oppps, now the expense of an interperter. When you rent the flat for a week, where do you think the flat owner goes?  To there country home more than likely. Now what happened if you loose your key to your flat (it has happened many times) and you can’t get in or the hot water heater stops working or a fuse is blown and the kitchen appliances stop working?  Are you going to have the flat owners phone to the country home? Opps, need an interpreter again. Many country homes do not have phones and if they do, do you think the flat owner is coming into town right away, probably not.

To pay an extra $5 a day to have someone who can take care of your problems is something I think you should all consider. With our company, and I am not aware of any other agency who does this, but with our agency that $5 a day extra over the flat owners expense that you pay to a Rostick, or a Galina, Valentina, Nastya, Tatyana, Elena, Eugene, etc, etc, etc, that $5 a day means we have an extra key to the flat, we know where to buy the old time 220 volt glass fuses. That $5 a day pays for our people to be there when you need something. Just something to keep in mind when you are dealing directly with a flat owner and of course our people speak good English and there is no need to hire an interpreter (more expense)when meeting with our flat owners.

When it comes to paying for interpreters, please be aware of the going prices. In Kiev you can expect to pay about $6 an hour, however if you are going to use an interpreter for more than 4 hours that price will usually come down to $5 an hour. In Odessa and the rest of Ukraine expect to pay about $5 an hour, and again, with several hours used in a day that price can come down to $4 an hour. St. Pete. and Moscow are the exception in Russia. Most of Russia will be $5 an hour and less. With St. Pete we can get prices at about $8 and $7 and hour, in Moscow about $9 and $8 and hour. So guys try not to pay anymore that these prices. If you can’t find these prices or better, than feel free to holler at me.

.........Drew 209.245.207.251 June 6 2001, 3:04 PM
I give my real name, I give my email address,I say that I am agency owner, I do not hide behind anything, Yet he post (as always under many differnt names, never giving his email address.

..........Bill 209.245.193.192 April 26 2001, 6:21 PM
I am interested in finding out more about your agency, as I am corresponding with a lady from Chernovtsy now, and would prefer to not meet only one lady, (while I am there), where can I get some more information from you? such as cost and etc..?

..........Drew 209.245.193.192 Bill, just send me a email April 26 2001, 8:02 PM
Bill, I would be happy to help you, or or answer any question's you might have. Just email me direct at drew@academicplanet

The other guy would just annoy people all the time but never really flame anybody.  I guess Joe Walker gave the guy a hard time because he was always so negative and would generate lots of nasty replies.  You have guys like that like to always annoy buy never flame.

So I played with the troll once?

So I don't agree with jacks way of drumming up custom with all that scaremongering?

So now I'm the new troll, sorry "Troll Enabler" Must be the first of a new breed.

I just don't like the idea of insincere men traveling half way around the world (or not at all) after leading these women on for months, only to have half a dozen extra addresses up their sleeve just in case or a ticket in the pocket for those socials. God knows what kind of women they find there. I guess they deserve them.(and I do concede of course there will be exceptions)

I guess this is why some of the guys here have been going back to FSU for the sixth of seventh time?

I'm sorry but I just cannot see how love can be found with this thinking and going this route.

Take that English guy who posted "Ending my engagement" recently, the one with the web site Russianconnections.com or maybe co.uk.

Read his trip report on the site; About the slapper (whore and Porno actress) Marina he met in London and again in Kiev,  She has an idea of setting up some agency and well... he just wants to give her one, but she's haveing none of it, two or three days later he's in Odessa and meets another girl, and he's telling her how much he loves her!

No big surprise then is it? When after a few months of being back in London he finds he can't be bothered to post the paperwork for the U.K. Settlement/Marriage visa, and the girl gets pissed off with waiting which showed in the phone calls.

FYI the U.K. paperwork is not so difficult and a two months wait max.

Here in England as long as you are financialy stable, i.e. letter from your boss, bank statement, can accomodate your loved one and a letter from your tax office confirming you are taxed as a single man (ie your not already shacked up with another woman) ain't nothing difficult or time consuming about it.

In contrast this K-1 thing sounds like a nightmare.

So sorry Bubba and LP, guess I don't fit your usual definition of troll.

Django

PS. who is Joe Walker?

aviso.kiev.ua

look at the database

Rubic 117 for flats to hire

Rubic 801-810 for contacts

I guess the non-Russian readers already know how to use Prompts translator

translate.ru

fapia.com for other free adds papers in fsu and wordwide

Django

holiday apartments 17USD per night

Fax, internet on-line reservation etc.

Can jack match this? NOOOOOOO

So go learn some russian and get them search engines working for you.

 This is great deal! The best I ever see for Kiev.

 I guess you recommend these flats to all your friends, right?

 The flats I recommend to my friends and clients cost a lot more that the price you pay. You, Pordzhik, now have the best deal in Kiev. Pordzhik, do you have address, name, phone number of contact to get these flats?

Really I'm not in this for profit. Just thought it was about time I pointed some of the guys in the right direction- And that address was for Lviv not Kiev.

Now can you get anyone a better price anywhere in FSU....

it's there to be had, just look.

I've an honest living to make.

Be back tomorrow, if Patrick don't shoot me down.

Lets see what some of you can come up with.

Now I do not care much for waht jack has to say and readers can deceide for themselves what they want to spend their money on.  But havoing looked at the photo's apartments on Jacks web site I can tell you my apartment was much better and more modern than the on;s advertised by Jack's agency.  

I have also seen some opf teh appartments that are siad to be in the City Centre and I can tell you in trensms of getting around Podil was great and if you can get BETTER accomodation at a CHEAPER rate and only be two metro stops away but close to Supermarkets, shops etc... then I now what I would do.

BUT PLEASE DO NOT TAKE MY ADVICE IF YOU ARE UNSURE...  IT DOES NOT BOTHER ME... COME TO THINK OF IT I GUESS IT IS BETTER THIUS WAY WHEN I RETURN I WILL NOT HAVE AS MUCH TROUBLE FINDING THE PLACE I WANT...  OH BUT THE WAY PODIL IS THE PLACE WHERE THE STAFF FAROM THE WORLD BAMK, UN ADN THE US EMBASSY LIVE...  And many people there spoke ENGLISH..

SO PLEASE DO NOT LISTEN TO JACK WHEN HE TRIES TO TELL YOU LIVE IN THE CENTRE --- LIVE IN A JACK APPARTMENT..  OR PAY THROUGH THE NOSE.

For those who now Stcokholm Podil is like Gama Stan.  It is the Old City Center near Adriv's Church, Knotractova and McDonalds...  But the River...  Great place.

Did you know that another fella named Max from Australlia,  was telling us about a flat very similiar to this. I wonder if this was your friend from Australlia who showed this to you jj/Max?

jj/Max, we all believe you, many men would like to rent this great flat you talk about for over a year, well since the time that Max disappeared and jj showed up, maybe you can show photos of this flat?

You can email me if you like.

Thanks,

Mark

How long are you planning on going...  My only hesitation of goiving my contact is that I want to be sure that I can book the apartment when I visit again... soon I hope...  maybe this time I will stay six months...  cheaper by the month.

Write me back at nunya@ix.netcom.com  I will look into this and will send you a refund if this is indeed the case.

If your renting downtown then you really must expect to pay upwards of $55 a night, alot more if its been euro-renovated.

Its possible to get it cheaper if you rent direct from the owner, however in all likely hood you will be using an agent.
Agents are in business to make money and there fees are 50% on top of the rent that the owner wants. So if you rent an apartment for 1 week at $75 a night, then $350 goes to the owner and $175 to the agent.

If your renting monthly then you can expect to get a discount of at least 25% on the nightly rate.

You won't find an apartment to rent for $300 a month any where near down town. If your lucky you may get something further out for this price but probably you wouldn't want to live in it!

$500 a month will get you a nice 1 bedroom apartment 2 or 3 metro stops out from down town.

As a rule of thumb, the rents charged correspond to a yield of about 20% p.a. on the value of the property (assuming 100% occupancy...which of course no one gets)

STEVE

I later stayed at a place next to the Britsh Embassy near the main Church on top of the hill (Finicular) it was good but doid not have a washing machine.  Ok for a few nights..  But the flat in Podil was the best.  A single room serviced weekly and great value.  I am told there are many such flats.  I was also told to avoid the left bank...

My contact was via the a Friend (His name was Paul, Jack, and yes he had met a guy named Max who I think you are refering to but I anm not sure.  I will asl when I see him next.  We live 10000Km but we do keep in touch occassionally.)  I can give those interested a name of another friend that hired a good flat, a bit more basic then mine but clean and comfortable (Better then the photos of Jacks apartments)for 25USD.

I am trying to contact my land lady as we speak to see if I can book it again this time for a longer period.

We found this contact via another friend who works in the US Embassy...  Maybe you should ask there....  

For $300 a month you will be lucky to get a flat further out but you probably wouldn't want to live there (unless you were an Aussie).  

IF you go some 2 or 3 stops away from the center you might find something for $500 a month.

Best price flats in the center of Kiev will be going for $55 a night, and much more if they are Euro-renovated.

I am glad Max/jj finally admits to this.

He ended up at the apartment, and she knew where he was?

How did that work out for him?

Sounds like she was a partial scammer. Her knowing where he lived couldn't have been good!

What happened next?

He suspected something prior to there meeting so he has a good idea as to what is going on.

I have seen men get involved with known scammers before. With some of these I figure out later that the guy was just looking for a good time.

A good example of this was a guy from DC flew into Dnepropetrovsk and we meet him at the airport. His girl also met him there at the same time. My Galina thought she looked familiar and indeed she did. She is the Julia from Dnepropertovsk that is on page 4 of my known scammers section.  Galina called me during the day on a Sunday afternoon and she was all excited and told me that our client was with this woman and what were we going to do. I got the guys phone number and called him in his flat at 1am. He assured me he was by himself and I told him that his woman was a known scammer and read two reports to him from two other guys who had also met her, also in Dneprop.

We talked about it for a little while and he said he would figure out how to handle it in the morning.  What did he do? He took her to Yalta for four days and probably xxxxxed her brains out and that was it.

After I looked back at things I realized he must have known she was a scammer, she was on my site for sometime before he left, he had to have seen her, and he never once told us anything about his girl, what her name was or anything. I think he knew she was a scammer and was just looking for a fantasy week.

Most clients stay in contact with me, almost all call after they return back to the states, I never heard from this guy again after our late night phone call.

I don't put up the ugly photos of scammers, no one will remember their photos. And heh, if a guy wants to read about the scammer, he can go to another site. If he wants to see just photos, which guys tend to remember, he can come to my site. But I will suggest this to you Max/jj, if you don't like the layout of my scammers site, why don't you make one to your liking, instead of always talking bad about my scammers site. jj/Max, if you could get the good feeling inside I get almost everyday from some guy in the world who writes to thank you for helping him as he was in the process of being scammed until he saw the scammers photo, then I think you would also create your own scammers site instead of talking bad about one that is already existing.

Hey Max/jj, how are you doing with your pursuit? Have you had any luck with finding a woman yet?

We hear nothing of your trips or the women you meet, why is that? We only hear about a great flat that you can't tell us how to rent and of course we hear your silly rebuttals to everything I write. Why don't you share with us about your trips and the ladies you meet?  How about a photo Max/jj?  Oh, never mind, I remember now, if you show us a photo we will see you were the black Max who left us with the large long distance bill. D@mn, we didn't know those calls to Australlia were so expensive!

jj/Max, you still in Australlia are you?  When are you going back home to Canada? You have been in Australlia a long time now jj/Max!

I looked on your page four. Sheesh! SHe's not even a good looking scammer!

I mean, if your going to go to Yalta for four days, pick Julia from Kiev on Page Three. Or better yet, Helen from Odessa on Page 13 ... now THERE'S a lady to take to Yalta...

I mean, if you're going to waste a week's trip... make it memorable...

No accounting for taste, I guess.

Um... I was being sarcastic... before the flames start...

I have taken two trips and focused on a single woman the first trip and 2 women the second trip.  I have had 2 women try to cheat me out of money.  Both of the women trying to cheat me were women I honestly wanted to bring to the USA.  

Too many men go to Ukraine and meet the woman only to have her just walk away within a few hours.  There are a lot dishonest women that make this very difficult for the men.

Scamming for money.... Scamming for sex... same thing, different coin of the realm.

But, the guys who put up the scammers sites don't worry about other men, because they will not personally be scammed by a man.

I think that the agencies who sig the women up SHOULD keep a "blacklist" of men.

And I'll add one more.. the man who writes and writes, and never goes over.

As for me personally, I've never done a sex tour.

As I said before, my previous post was "tongue in cheek"

I did this until I found a woman who I thought was as beautiful on the inside as she was on the outside. I never promised any of these women marriage, although they knew I was looking for a wife, but I did promise each the opportunity to meet. And most the women Tania were also interested in the meeting, as they were also looking to meet a man whose chemistry they thought were a good match for them.

  There is no doubt that there are un-sincere men involved with looking for a good Russian woman. No matter what you do in life, there will always be the good and bad side of everything. The type of man you described is the type of man that gives all of us a bad name.

  Tania, men like you have described, I sincerely believe (and hope) are in the minority. I have met a few such guys, and I have talked to a few such guys, but percentage wise, these guys have been maybe 5 to 7%. Then Tanya you wil have another group of men who maybe are not so honest with the ladies and the type of life they live in America. I think this percent of men could be some 10 to 12%.

  In total percentage I would hope that 15% or less of American men would fall into these two catagories. And Tania, there is little that can be done to resolve the problem as things are today.

  Now from the man's perspective, we are probably faced with a Russian women scammers rate as high as 33 to 36% overall. And if you consider the percentage of scammers coming from the Internet, I think that figure is close to 60%.

  What is the answer to resolve the problem Tania?  

  Agencies that care to deal with only sincere men and only sincere women, and even at that you will have some falling thru the cracks. Under the current system I am afraid we will not be seeing any major changes anytime soon.

-blm

I think Tania has a point.  We, on this board, tend to be a little self-righteous.  No American man can be a scammer!  Heaven forbid!  No AM would travel to the FSU just for a sex trip.  What about these women who trusted what this guy says.  Are their feelings/wants/needs any less than ours?  I don't think so.

Remember, this is a two-way street.  There are woman scammers and then there are men scammers.  Who is the worst?  I don't know, but it does work both ways.

Still lurking,
BrianC