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Well finally, after making 100 phone calls over the last week, I finally got to speak to my beloved in Kiev. its exactly a week since we had our little disagreement on the phone.

Turns out she had not been away at all. Her mother had said she was at a wedding but she was just covering for her. I was tempted to let fly with accusations because this whole episode has really pissed me off, but last night i realised that such a reaction would be the wrong thing to do. So instead I explained to her on the phone that what was actually happening was that 2 people who had met and spent probably 5 weeks together were discovering that they in fact had many incompatabilities. Nothing unusual about that. The only thing unusual was that they had decided to get engaged after only 2 weeks. That was the only mistake.

I said that it was best if we call off the engagement and she agreed. (would have felt better if she had burst in to tears at this stage but unfortunately she didn't). I told her not to give up on her search for happiness outside Kiev and I meant it. She's a lovely girl and i know if she stays there then she will end up doing nothing with her life. She doesn't deserve that.

I told her that i still loved her and that I was sad that we could not say goodbye in person. Perhaps one day I might visit Kiev again to say goodbye but I made no promises. I think we both felt sad because in the short time we have known each other we have been through quite a lot.

You know the one goog thing that came out of this was that we broke up now. It would have been an absolute nightmare if I had brought her over here on a fiancee visa and we had found out then that we were incompatable. I dread to think what would have happened.

STEVE

... in response to ending my engagement...final part, posted by SteveD on Jan 29, 2002

following your gut instincts. The fact that she did not cry proved you were absolutely correct in your gut.

So, this one has a happy ending when you look at it correctly. Hey, it happened to me also. I know it is not fun.

... in response to Now, that wasn't so hard was it......, posted by thesearch on Jan 29, 2002

Quote: "The fact that she did not cry proved you were absolutely correct in your gut." Where are you coming from, man?

... in response to What a crock......., posted by Dude on Jan 29, 2002

What a crock?  Hmmmmmm

The only thing that comes to me as to where you are coming from is that you are focusing on the exception, because I certainly would agree with you that there will be exceptions and thus in one sense my wording perhaps should have been that when she did not cry it was just another piece of supportive information versus "proves". The only thing that I can get is you did not like the absoluteness of the conclusion - but I will retort with the chance of me being wrong is less than the opposite being the truth in this situation.  I'd love to have those odds in Vegas. There would be a reason to gamble.

Why did I say what I did ---- The first reason is personal experience - not once but several experiences. Of course, as I said before, there always going to be exceptions. However, I do not know about you but I for one will come to conclusions when a conclusion is indicated with the most logical and not the exception. If the exception exists I will let it prove itself.

My experience is that lack of emotional response would be the exception not the rule as a reaction as a result of telling a woman who is in love with you that you are calling it off. If you think that is a crock it is clear we have total different life experiences and yours IMHO are not the norm and thus you are a unique one.

I am also going on the entire story that Steve presented with lack of crying only being one more piece of information of which its meaning is more easily available to attempt to understand when looked at with all prior events and actions on her part. Clearly one clue is not enough to make a call but when they start mounting up the last clue is more easy to interpret and has more meaning because of the prior incidences. If you think that is a crock, you are not inclined to want to be logical but living in the world of what ifs and thus not be in the real world as often as someone who is. Just a reflection of the law of odds. Many people do not want to be there for some reason - otherwise Las Vegas could not exist.  

Dude, iIt is a very rare women that will let a man go she is really -- I mean really in love with without a fight. I mean they will go to all ends enduring all kinds of suffering if needed to show you how much they love you. It is all about how much of a loss they perceive they are going to go through without you. If they feel that you are easy enough to replace - the motivation is not there.

I will admit that there will be the less common situation whereby the woman will hide her emotions from you and just suffer. But suffer she will if she loves you and she will not - will not be able to hide it from the ones she lives with. She will stop eating or start eating everything in site. She will be depressed and will either sleep too much or have poor sleep. Her emotional upset will show - this is without exception unless the woman is  mentally ill.

However, dude - you are ignoring one point --- the person that has gone through this - has come to the conclusion that this lady is not right for him based upon her actions.

I would be willing to bet that if this lady really loved him and had showered him with affections and sincerity he would be still moving down the road leading to marriage. It was her actions/ lack  of actions that caused the questions, his concerns, his anguish and his final acceptance that this lady was not acting like a woman in love and thus she was not right for him. And, a smart man lets go of a woman that does not love him enough. Steve is being smart.

I think that Steve in the final analysis is the one who is in the best position to make a decision - not you or I.

Now, maybe you are too young to have had enough women who really loved you, that you left to experience what I am talking about. I have been in this situation many times and I have experienced the opposite although not as often so- I know how it felt also.

So, I really do not know what you mean by that is a crock.

Please enlighten me since you are so emphatic. I like to learn - it only empowers me. Teach me.

... in response to Did you mean alligator?....I am not sure..., posted by thesearch on Jan 30, 2002

I have to say that was one of the best written, insightful and intelligent posts I've read. It really summerises exactly the whole process that I went through in this break up.

You know the funny thing about women is that even though they make out they are sensitive and want to talk about there feelings in actual fact, when it comes to relationships at least, they have a hard time actually saying what they really want.

This is the problem that I had with this girl, on one hand she was saying that she loved me and missed me etc, yet her actions kept saying the opposite. Just looking at her I could tell she was unhappy about something, there was always a sad look in her eye. But if I asked her what was wrong she would never tell.

Partly, that is why i never completely gave myself to her either. Even though I had asked her to marry me, secretely we both new that we were not at a stage in the relationship when we could know whether we wanted to get married or not.
From the moment we became engaged that was when things started to go down hill.

But, lets be careful here and not try to complicate things. The plain fact is is that "thesearch" is spot on, if she loved me then the engagement would still be on. There is no way I would have called it off.

The only sad thing about all this is that probably I won't be able to say goodbye in person. But I don't want to start dwelling on that or start thinking that somehow we are going to get back together. That delusion would be easy to have.

If there is one thing I have learn't in my 37 years is that you have to cut your losses and move on.
STEVE

... in response to Re: WOW..totally spot on, posted by SteveD on Jan 30, 2002

I obviously do not know everything  but sometimes by not knowing everything one can see something that one might not see if we were amidst of it all whatever that means however, I just wanted to say one more thing if I might.

You were being sincere with this lady - she was not being that way totally with you. Because of that sincerity you had and the fact that you are a nice man you have said that you feel a need to say good bye in person. This is because you have respect for what happened. For you, I would guess that this is how you feel you can get final closure on what has happened.

Trust me, that it may actually make it worse and not better.
The reason I say this is because it is your need and not hers most likely and at some level she will be feeling guilt and her attitude as a result could make you even feel more hurt and not the freedom forthcoming that you expect.

Most likely you have that freedom now and just do not realize it as you are still in the process.

Pat yourself on the back. Every time we go through something like this we have the opportunity to come out stronger, wiser versus cynical.

... in response to Now, that wasn't so hard was it......, posted by thesearch on Jan 29, 2002

I'll be the last one to say I know everything about women, but I do know there is no way to understand them completely over the phone or e-mail, hell I married one and I can't always understand them. One thing I know is they are all different. My wife would sneak and hide her pain from me if we was in this situation. A lot of FSU are uncomfortable showing emotions, but if ya know something is wrong in your gut then it probibly is.
Mike

... in response to ending my engagement...final part, posted by SteveD on Jan 29, 2002

I have NOT read Steve's storyline as to what he was going through or how he was being stringed along.

Clearly, if you see red flags, don't ignore them.

Follow, your gut instict.  

You've got to live with your decisions

... in response to ending my engagement...final part, posted by SteveD on Jan 29, 2002

Decide.  I've already told me lady, that if we don't see eye to eye and that were not compatible when she gets here, she will be free to return home.

But atleast she and her son will have experience life in America.  This girl was after all once married to a East German Army guy and has been all over Germany.  So, in my eyes' she's well travel, more than the average.  She of course has been to St. Petersburg and Moscow in her lifetime.

So, like I said to her, this could be her 90 day vacation.

But you see, I kinda  have this hunch she'll stay longer.  When I was in Kiev and we were discussing her childs health woes.  I told her that unless I don't have documentation on his health, I won't bring them to America.  Well, I walked out of the room for a minute or two and when I came back she was looking out the window bawling like a little baby.

I've been to her folks apartment and in her tiny room, which makes my back bedroom in this mobile home seem might large.  In that room, were two twin size beds and a closet that look darn near like something I use to have when I was living in the barrack in the navy.

The room was a dull and dreary color.  The only bright spot, was the large window where all her plants grew on the ledge.  Hell, thought I may not be super rich, I've got way, way more than she'll ever see in her lifetime.

Her future is pretty bleak, with a child to take care of.

So will see how she like living on 128 acres of prime Tennessee farm land located 6 miles North of city.  Country living, but not that far into the sticks.

So will, I'm going to atleast give us 90 days or her a decent vacation.  Whatever unfolds.  I will atleast have tried.

What does she have to lose, she can always go back home to her parents, that dreary little room is hers.

Of course, not all women live with their parents.

... in response to Re: Gee, isn't that why the INS gives yo..., posted by wsbill on Jan 29, 2002

Bill,
 What the hell makes you think you are such a prize?  You are doing this girl such a big favor to live in your friggin trailer and grow friggin tomatoes?  Are you for real?  Wow, a whole 128 acres?  Is that "bottom" land too?  How friggin impressive!!!!!  Your Ukrainian girl is probably the only one in the world that lives worse than you.  You are such a piece of work I cannot believe it.  She is not a prize hog, you fool.  Gee, maybe you can hook her and her son up to a plow and finally plant thet back 40.  That'll let her earn her keep.  If you don't LOVE this woman, then stop misleading her with false hope.  
KenC

... in response to Your attitude SUCKS, posted by KenC on Jan 29, 2002

Before you have a heart attack.

Can anyone really admit they were in love with someone in such a short period of time. No, way... I seriously doubt it.

You might have been infatuated, but I think a vast majority of the guys posting on the board.  Won't publicly admit it but they settle for a girl that fits equally well in to their lifestyle.

You'd like to think she's in love with you.  But the reality of it all is, she's only looking at one thing.  Security.  They all are.  Love, will come in due time.

Love is something that is gained over time.  No doubt, they'll love you for taking them out of their struggling lifestyle and into ours, the land of opportunity.
---------------------
I'm not going to tell this girl, "I'm in love her until I really mean it".  

Oh, I totally agree.  This girls main priority is her son.
I have no problems with that.  This is natural and I'm all for it.

... in response to Re: Go take an aspirin KenC,, posted by wsbill on Jan 30, 2002

Wbill, my intent was not to flame you or anything.  I can see your point of view in this issue and I think your playing it very well.  I would show a little more love but that is just me.  It's hard being single so long and being a realist to think that someone can just fall in love.  Again I see your point and respect it, I hope everything works out for you.  I love the tomato idea and I have always liked your web site and still use it everyday.  
Ryan

... in response to Re: Go take an aspirin KenC,, posted by wsbill on Jan 30, 2002

...for all the endless, inane stuff that comes from you Bill, here is finally a pearl of wisdom and truth.

I gotta admit you surprised me this time. Well said.

... in response to Re: Go take an aspirin KenC,, posted by wsbill on Jan 30, 2002

Bill,

"Can anyone really admit they were in love with someone in such a short period of time. No, way... I seriously doubt it."  You show no emotions at all towards your RW.  If you don't LOVE her, then take more time or move on.  FYI, Lena and I were madly in love when we married and that love continues 3 years later.

"You might have been infatuated, but I think a vast majority of the guys posting on the board. Won't publicly admit it but they settle for a girl that fits equally well in to their lifestyle."  Fit your lifestyle?  Hmmm.  Right color and right options?  Maybe you should pass on the new wife with child and just get yourself a new truck instead.  FYI, Lena didn't "fit" into my lifestyle at all.  As a matter of fact, she turned my lifestyle up side down!  I gladly changed my lifestyle to accommodate the woman I loved.

"You'd like to think she's in love with you. But the reality of it all is, she's only looking at one thing. Security. They all are. Love, will come in due time."  Is your self esteem so low that "security" is all you think you have to offer?  Just what the hell kind of security are you offering?  You are in a struggling financial position and living in your situation would not be appealing to most RW.  FYI, Lena had a very good lifestyle in Russia with a great career plan in Moscow.  She had no good reason to leave her family, friends, future and Motherland other than her love for me.  

"Love is something that is gained over time. No doubt, they'll love you for taking them out of their struggling lifestyle and into ours, the land of opportunity."  Love for sale?  Bartering your lifestyle in your trailer in the middle of no where for her love?  Get real!  How shallow can one be?  Your white horse aint so white and your armor is more than rusty.  Your typical over sell of America is also off target.  Opportunity?  To live in your trailer and grow and sell tomatoes? LOL  FYI, the time to fall in love is BEFORE marriage, not during it.  Marrying without love is beyond foolish, it is stupid.  Your attitude going into marriage is certainly going to insure disaster.
KenC

... in response to you're full of it, posted by KenC on Jan 30, 2002

And you could find one decent girl......... Whoa!

Something is wrong here.  I live in the sticks, where all the young people leave and return when they get older and the single women in these parts are either 75 years old or some hosebag.  

San Diego is like babe capital of the USA !!!  

Now I've heard it all.

... in response to Re: Your from San Diego....babe capital ..., posted by wsbill on Jan 30, 2002

Ken is not originally from S.D.  He and his wife are recent transplants from some Midwest Siberia.

Besides, sure the CA gals are hot, but you don't actually MARRY them.  I mean, GawdAlmighty!  Marry a beach bunny?  What, are you crazy?  They're strictly eye-candy.  The happily married guys find wives from far outside this superficial culture, probably the very gals fleeing your provincial hole-in-the-wall small town.  It's a common pattern.  Young girl fresh out of college arrives in So. CA from the sticks ('cause she don't wanna marry just any local guy back home); finds that her local competition consists of gorgeous sun-kissed California hard-bodies; gets incredibly insecure; and quickly settles down to marry just any ol' local guy.
And cross-cultural and bi-racial relationships are incredibly common here also (to which a half-dozen guys over on the Asian board can attest).

... in response to Re: Your from San Diego....babe capital ..., posted by wsbill on Jan 30, 2002

(prior message correction)

... in response to Re: And you could NOT  find one decent g..., posted by wsbill on Jan 30, 2002

n/t

... in response to Re: And you could NOT  find one decent g..., posted by wsbill on Jan 30, 2002

BTW, did you see what LP said about your inane posts? I'm not the only one who thinks that way.

... in response to Hang it up Bill before you did a hole so..., posted by Richard on Jan 30, 2002

I am not sure the full extent of what you meant regarding LP and his post but  LP agreed with this post and thus the "amazing" subject title. That is how I took it.

Read my diplomatic post on this subject. I do not agree with how he is describing his process and attitudes but hey words can be misleading. I have been misunderstood many a times.

KenC is just being very vocal but I agree with him in principle about rocking the boat over this to get Bill to self examine.

But, on the other hand KenC is being idealistic but, he has lived the talk and thus can say what he is saying. But, unfortunately much of what Bill has said is how this is all done in so many terms by many to varying degrees. First of all many can not afford to do it correct. I would be surprised if KenC was not with me on this - that is why he posted his response - he sees that people are going to get in trouble by not doing things right.

By the way Bill please do not tell that your lady is from the city - please don't - she is a country girl isn't she? Cause if she is not - oh boy - you are stacking the odds against you big time.

... in response to Yea but man here, posted by thesearch on Jan 30, 2002

I believe Bill's fiancee is from Kiev.

... in response to Re: Yea but man here, posted by Richard on Jan 30, 2002

Married a East German guy where in which they live in German.  After he beat her and she lost her first child, she divorced him.  She return to Kiev one year and then return to Germany working at orchards & greenhouses.

I asked her what's her favorite thing to do?  Picking nuts and berries in the forest, along with mushrooms.

When I was there in June, we harvested their strawberries at the dacha.  She definately has a greenthumb and a strong back.  She even picked some black berries (thornless variety).

When I went about searching for a girl, I wasn't looking at external beauty alone, but what she put on her biography.

Here's what she had listed under hobbies:
fine arts, gardening, reading, movies, children, tourism, fishing.

... in response to Re: She is from Kiev, posted by wsbill on Jan 30, 2002

I'll bet I'm probably the only guy on this message board to have caught a fish out of the Dnipner River!

When we went with her brother, his wife and child on a picnic, we all took turns fishing.  This was serious business with her.  When she was asking me question, she wanted to know if their were any good fishing spots near my house.  My answers was Kentucky Lake, Reelfoot Lake and the Mississippi River.

She told me she prefers to wearing long pants verse dresses.

... in response to Re: Does your girl like fishing...???, posted by wsbill on Jan 30, 2002

And you are probably the only man in America who would eat a fish from the Dnipner!  Tell me you didn't Wild Glow Bill.

... in response to Re: Does your girl like fishing...???, posted by wsbill on Jan 30, 2002

Bill,

Just make absolutely sure that she understands that you live in the country COUNTRY. I do not care if she likes pickying berries and fishing -  a lot of city girls like that but to keep them out of the city too long will not work for them.

Hey wasn't the fish real small that you caught - as I recall?

I remember the pics i think

... in response to Re: Re: Does your girl like fishing...??..., posted by thesearch on Jan 30, 2002

But no, I didn't eat the fish... We had some sort of mystery meat and some sort of sauce on it.  I didn't get sick so that's a good sign.

But the fish was about 2 inches long.  I've used bait bigger than it.

Just prior to my visit I sent her brother and her some hooks and fishing line...  When she got out the bambo fishing pole out of the back of the car and about 10' of line.  I kinda took a step back in time.

I felt like Huck Finn.
------------
I've posted photos of where I live at online, so she can see first hand what kind of living arrangements I have.  And shown her on a topographical map where I live at..

You can too, find the number 21 with a circle around it and go up about 1/2 inch.

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=16&n=4034023&e=319024&size=m&symshow=n
------------
Here's the yahoo map... Jack when you come and visit Anna you can look me over. ha..

http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=5115+hwy+21&city=Union+City&state=TN&slt=36.486800&sln=-89.036800&zip=38261-7868&country=us&BFKey=&BFCat=&BFClient=&mag=4&cs=9&name=&desc=&off=n&poititle=&poi=

and I'm in the process of creating a video for which I'll have transfer over to the PAL format to send to her.  So this give her some idea.  

... in response to Re: Yea but man here, posted by Richard on Jan 30, 2002

or he might ulitmately find himself talking to king dande comparing notes.

... in response to Hang it up Bill before you did a hole so..., posted by Richard on Jan 30, 2002

The day I start living my life as to what other people think is the day, I quit living for myself.

I make my post interesting and fun to read.  Everybody wants to project a perfect image.  I rather, will say how it is.

Are you pipeing in now because you live in Ft. Lauderdale, the East coast babe capital.  Are you still upset I sent you that e-mail and told everyone on the message board you had a virus on your computer?  Get over it.  

-------------------
Just think of how dull and boring this message board would be if I weren't here.  You can atleast laugh at some of my posts, but as far as the girl is concerned a great deal of though has been put into this.

I'm not about treating people like an object.

KenC. is putting alot of words in my mouth.  I haven't told anyone how I really feel about this girl, I've been using this forum more as a sounding board ~ but without all the facts...

I am definately going to do the 90 day thing.

What do you think her response would be if I said to her, don't come I don't love you just yet.  You'll have to wait until my next years visit so that I can figure this out.

Ninety days is there for a reason.  So that you can bring over the girl that you think is well suited for you and see if she will accept her surroundings and new life.

We've read it here....some want to return home, rather than stay on a hog or chicken farm.  No doubt, I'd leave too...pee-u, those things stink.  

Hey, atleast my garden is creating oxygen.

... in response to Re: I really don't care what other peopl..., posted by wsbill on Jan 30, 2002

Alright, I can see it is getting a little too dull and quiet around here if you two, Ken and WildBill, start going at each other.

It is fun to watch LP and Yoe go at it, it is fun (I think)to watch Max/jj and I go at it, it is NOT so fun watching you two go at it!

Sooooo, let me see if I can get something stirred up around here (which shouldn't be to hard for me).

Anyone heard from Claire!!  You know she has to be around. If not here, she has to be trolling somewhere? I don't think she just disappeared.

As spring is approaching all you newly married couples, soon to be married couples, old married couples, single guys looking, you all need to plan some type of acivity in the area you live. Start some type of networking so that your current Russian bride or soon to be here Russian bride, will have someone from her country that she can call on and talk to during that important first six month here. Both her transition, and yours, will be smoother if she has someone else she can talk to while she adjust over the loss of family, friends and country.

Some ladies have no problems with adjustment while others will benefit from knowing a few others.

And oh, yes, still have 63 chevy for sale, but the hanging dice from the windshild have been sold.

... in response to Re: Go take an aspirin KenC,, posted by wsbill on Jan 30, 2002

I think it would be a good read for everyone, since your the foremost authority on the subject of love.

Have you ever been divorced ?

... in response to Re: KenC. is your biography in the archi..., posted by wsbill on Jan 30, 2002

Bill,
Yes, I was divorced after 21 years of marriage and two great kids.
KenC

... in response to Re: Gee, isn't that why the INS gives yo..., posted by wsbill on Jan 29, 2002

KenC is the board expert on the topic, BUT, Olya and I happened onto a possible solution to the problem of the K-1 visa allowing such a short decision-making window.

If you take a look at this website - www.EnglishAmerica.com - you will find a school that focuses exclusively on teaching English to non-native English speakers. Their tuition is VERY reasonable - and they provide assistance in acquiring the necessary visas to enter the country on a student visa.

I know KenC brought Lena into the country in a smiliar (or identical) manner - though the school he used charged a REALLY high tuition.

For anyone in the Denver area, they really should look into this alternative. For others, maybe check out the schools in the area and try to find one that caters to foreign students.

Good Luck!

- Dan

... in response to Re: Gee, isn't that why the INS gives yo..., posted by wsbill on Jan 29, 2002

He's from England so I think they have something like six months or a year. Ninety days is way too short a time. Too short to experiment with, although every minute of it should be utilized before walking the ailse.

... in response to Re: Gee, isn't that why the INS gives yo..., posted by wsbill on Jan 29, 2002

I agree with the idea that you don't have to be in love to test the waters. These women are smart and if they come here and think the life is not what they want then there's a good chance they'll leave you high and dry regardless how much love you thought was there. It only makes sense to me that they must not only like you as a person but also the life they'll have to live here, and they'll never know this until they come, and by going there over and over may improve your chances of knowing the kind of person she is, it wont guarentee that she will love you enough to suffer through things that we never considered. Although she appears to have a hard life now, I'm sure she is use to it, and will miss many parts of that life that we think are unlivable conditions. The biggest thing in this girls life I can promise you is her child! That's one thing you can't play games with.
Mike

... in response to Re: Gee, isn't that why the INS gives yo..., posted by wsbill on Jan 29, 2002

Bill,

Thoughts flashed through my head as I read your post - mere thoughts mind. I thought that I would just share them with you and if there is any value for you so be it.

I will not duplicate what I read below but will say this.

There once was a time that I started dating this lady who I knew was not the lady for me but, I just wanted someone to go out and have fun with - well things happened and I found myself more deeply involved than I wanted and well, it was not meant to be.

What I am saying is that if you bring a lady over that you are not sure in your heart is the right one for you or she is not sure you are the right one for her - you can find yourself simply getting involved and things progressing when they should not if you know what I mean. In this case with bringing a woman from the FSU, you can delude yourself for the short run and, it is not as easy to end it after all that as compared to a relationship with a lady who can drive home in her car..

Also, I do not know how many times they will let you bring a different woman over. I am sure there is a point they say no. So, if you bring one over and send her back you have used one of your bullets.

Just be careful.

... in response to Re: Gee, isn't that why the INS gives yo..., posted by wsbill on Jan 29, 2002

I'll bet that if you asked any of us married guys on this board if they thought of the 90 day window as "just in case" reserve parachute, most would say "yes" and half of the guys that said "no" are lying.

You don't have anything to loose by what you are doing.  Well, except for a couple of bucks.  Most importantly, you are gaining more from the experience of trying than the experience of quitting.  Time will only tell if you and her will work out.  You are in catagory #2: "Those that make things happen."

Sorry Steve, but in the near future you will be catagory #3: "Those that wondered what happened."  Don't worry though, most of us in catagory #2 were once in catagory #3.  Drive on - new mission - good luck.

Flyboy

... in response to Re: Gee, isn't that why the INS gives yo..., posted by wsbill on Jan 29, 2002

I know I should probably shut up and all but I just had a question.  Where is the LOVE man?  I want to find that woman that I just can't live without and she can't live without me.  I don't think if I found this type of women that I would say anything like you said about not bringing the boy to america. I don't know anymore is this what it is all about? We're giving them a better life and that's why they are with us?  That sucks if you ask me...  Maybe I just need to get older to see this like all you guys.
Ryan

... in response to Re: Re: Gee, isn't that why the INS give..., posted by Ryan on Jan 29, 2002

Ryan, you never cease to amaze me.  I agree wholeheartedly with your comments.  Sure, there are many, perhaps the vast majority, of the RW are looking for security as their primary goal.  But there are many who want that knight in shining armor as their dream in life, and stability is a part of that.  Keep looking, and maybe you will find such a woman.

... in response to Re: Re: Gee, isn't that why the INS give..., posted by Ryan on Jan 29, 2002

Ryan,
You have the unique ability to be an ass even when you are right!  I posted to Bill below:
Bill,
If you really don't give a sh!t, then why bother? Give THE GIRL a break and let her find someone that truely loves her. It is obvious that you don't.
KenC

... in response to Re: Re: Gee, isn't that why the INS give..., posted by Ryan on Jan 29, 2002

on this one I'd say hold on to your ideals or else you'll end up settling on something less than what you want. And I don't know why anyone would want to do that.

... in response to Ryan, I rarely agree w/ you, but, posted by Stan B on Jan 29, 2002

When I was talking with her and telling about the financial woes.  I said to her (as she knows german), I said "Bill, dumpkoft" (stupid) and she said "no, No".

If she thought otherwise, she probably wouldn't have said anything.  So atleast she thinks I'm no dummy... Now, I've got to work on you guys...hi hi.

... in response to Re: Something interestingly happened rec..., posted by wsbill on Jan 29, 2002

Bill,

Words are powerful. I would not even jest about such - especially if the woman is strong - just my take.

... in response to Re: Something interestingly happened rec..., posted by wsbill on Jan 29, 2002

but I wouldn't go into it w/ the thought that if it doesn't work out that it will be a nice 90 day vacation. I'd think that if you decide that its not going to work, that it will be hard to have fun and treat the rest of their time as a vacation. Just try to imagine the disappointment your fiancee and son would have after their hopes were crushed and the thought that they will be viewed as failures upon their return.
But I do agree with your post where you say that your aren't looking for 'the perfect woman', but that your looking for the perfect woman for you. I hope you found her.

... in response to Re: Gee, isn't that why the INS gives yo..., posted by wsbill on Jan 29, 2002

Bill, I must agree with Richard and Dan.  If you don't feel in your heart of hearts 110% sure that you are going to get married then if it doesn't work out the 90 day period will in all likelihood be utter misery for both of you; it won't be a vacation.  Of course, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be evaluating how you live together, but it would be extremely traumatic to go throught the K-1 process, bring a lady to America, and then have to send her back.  So my advice is that if you don't feel deep in your heart of hearts that this is the one, a 90 day "vacation" will be small comfort to both you and her and a poor rationalization of the situation.  If you've got serious doubts, you're much better off taking the route Steve just chose.

... in response to Re: Re: Gee, isn't that why the INS give..., posted by Charles on Jan 29, 2002

Charles,
Right on the money with your post!  Somehow, Bill thinks that he will enrich his girls life by experiencing tomatoe growing in the hills of TN.  What a "gift".  LOL
KenC

... in response to the voice of reason, posted by KenC on Jan 30, 2002

The tomatos are just a ploy for her to gain local acceptance, she is interior designer specializing in fancy drapes, etc...

In these parts people don't do business with strangers.  She would experience discrimation as to her being know as a foreigner coming in and taking over.

The tomato/vegtable business is will be our dacha.  This whole idea is for the merchants to get to know her and no doubt once they find out who is, where she is from and what did she do in her native country - A European Drape & Curtain maker.  I'm sure once she opens her doors for business the local women will be getting in touch with her.
(Think of the tomato/veggie business as seed money for her business).  

I'll continue to do either autoglass or I'll be working at Goodyear and doing glass on the side.  Got an interview tomorrow for GT, so will see.

... in response to Re: Gee, isn't that why the INS gives yo..., posted by wsbill on Jan 29, 2002

...INS that. Why do you think they require a "Letter of Intent" to marry? They will take a dim view of your looking at it as a trial period.

Steve, I feel for ya but why in the heck would you ask a women to marry you after two weeks?

Fwiw, it doesn't have to mean the end. Sometimes a little holiday from each other can rekindle things, as long as you forgive her. You do have some investment in each other and stranger things have happened.

Then again, lieing is a bad thing and there are lots of other fish in that sea.

... in response to Geez, don't tell the..., posted by LP on Jan 29, 2002

I asked her to marry me after just over 2 weeks of physical time together but we had spent 3 months talking to each other on the phone.
I know what you mean though. Making such a big commitment when you hardly know each other is fool hardy and in fact it was the downfall of our relationship because it added a lot of extra pressure. My reasoning for getting engaged was because I wanted to show her that I was committed to her and also because I thought it was what she wanted to hear. Turned out to be a big mistake though. I think we both realised it, we just were not at a stage in the relationship when we could make that committment.
I will probably call her in a couple of weeks and ask her to send the ring back (no, I'm just joking). I will call her though and see how she is.
STEVE

... in response to Re: Geez, don't tell the..., posted by SteveD on Jan 29, 2002

There is a ring involved?

Do not worry, if she is a lady and not a low life she will return the ring without you even asking plain and simple - no discussion.

So, I guess you have placed before her  the opportunity to show you who she really is did you not. I hope you are not a product of abuse her but a reflection of her respect for  the situation and you. I hope she does not disappoint you and all of us.

... in response to Re: Geez, don't tell the..., posted by SteveD on Jan 29, 2002

....my point was that when one makes that commitment one usually stops all other contacts one may have and puts all the eggs in the one basket.

If it goes down the toilet then you have to begin again from scratch. Better to keep many deals going at once until you are sure, that way if one blows up the others are still there to fall back on. Until you're sure, quanity is the key, you can choose the quality later on.

Smart move to call. The additude among many here that a relationship should be executed for the slightest problem strikes me as a little harsh. After all, these are people,  not commodities.

Good luck to you.

... in response to I understand...., posted by LP on Jan 29, 2002

This is true they are not commodities, and trust me, if they smell that they are being looked upon as such they will realize it quickly, so if you're going to have a few different possibilities at the same time you had better be very carefull. For example I've heard of guys going as far as meeting a girl then have her take him to the airport so she would think he left when he was really waiting for her to leave so he could go spend time with the next girl on the other side of town.
Mike

... in response to Re: Gee, isn't that why the INS gives yo..., posted by wsbill on Jan 29, 2002

Your right, the 90 day period is to allow a couple to make sure that they do want to get married.  However, sometimes as a relationship develops, one or both people may learn something about the other person that makes them believe the other person is not the one for them.  When you suspect that the other person might not be the one for you, bringing her over for a “90 day vacation” may not be a good idea as it will / may be difficult to send her back. As Steve said, “It would have been an absolute nightmare if I had brought her over here on a fiancee visa and we had found out then that we were incompatable. (sic)”  I’m glad you believe that your lady is for you. (That’s the way it should be.)  In your case, a  “90 day vacation” may be ok.  For me,  I wouldn’t bring someone over unless I was 110% sure it was going to work.

... in response to Re: Sometimes it's not worth providing h..., posted by Richard on Jan 29, 2002

If I felt she wasn't worth the time and effort to bring stateside and live with me.

I would have rejected her a long time ago and we would have parted ways.

... in response to Re: Sometimes it's not worth providing h..., posted by Richard on Jan 29, 2002

Maybe it's just me, but if I brought a girl here that had a child and if she was not the girl for me, I still would suffer long enough so she could legally stay here without me instead of humiliating her by sending her back if this would be the situation for her. I made the bed so now I have to sleep in it kinda thing. If you're lucky she could get her conditional green card within a year and will be permitted to stay even if you divorce after that. ( she'll just have a longer wait for citizenship)Women with kids change all the rules for me. It's different if one adult has an effect on another adult, but a child doesn't deserve to also suffer or be dragged around the world like baggage.
Mike

... in response to Re: Re: Sometimes it's not worth providi..., posted by Mike on Jan 29, 2002

For one thing, she'll be coming over on a plane ticket which is a round trip ticket (cheaper price).  If things didn't pan out.  She's going home, attitude and all.

Just because they are from another country doesn't mean their any different from American women.

This whole misconception that if she has to return home after visiting the USA for a possible marriage to a guy is pretty wimpy logic.  Total BS.  Especially, if she has a child...what were they thinking when she got knocked up.

No doubt, they're going to get her hell.  Cause they all know, if they can survive living with you for 2-5 years or more, they'll be home free.

These ladies are not stupid.
----------------------------
You had better check your state laws before you say "I do".
It's best to be totally debt free and own everything before they can claim it's theirs.

Ask KenC, he knows it all.

... in response to Re: Re: Sometimes it's not worth providi..., posted by Mike on Jan 29, 2002


If I brought her over here, with good intentions, and then discovered that it didn't work.. I'd feel obligation:

To buy her a one way ticket home, and offer her some set up money while she got reacclimated.

Under NO circumstances would I tough it out for two years so she could get a green card.

Are you serious???

That would include alimony, child support, and probably half of everything you own... after all she is your WIFE now, and entitled to all of the goodies that comes with that.

And if you don't think she'd figure out how to find a lawyer in two years to make sure you could be taken for the absolute limit -- your are a dreamer...

Folks, wake up here to your risks in this enterprise...

... in response to Yeah... it's just you, posted by MarkInTx on Jan 29, 2002

Firstly I wouldn't bring a women here with a child unless I was sure there would be future between us, if I was going to bring her and her child here to see if we could have a happy life and felt we failed at this, then why make her and her child miserable for the sake of my comfort. Look how this guy is bringing her and her CHILD here as if to go on a test drive. Fu@k these are humans. As for losing everything then think of this chance you take before bringing them here. Why do you think these laws were made to start with? Was it so women can marry then screw the guy , or was it made so women can't be dominated by control freaks? If a man is stupid enough to take such a gamble then he is stupid enough to lose the farm.
Mike

... in response to Re: Yeah... it's just you, posted by Mike on Jan 30, 2002

My premise is that if I brought the woman over here it would be because I sincerely expected it to work.

I don't subscribe to the "90 Day Test Drive" Theory.

For one thing, I think that is an insanely expensive idea. If a guy thinks he doesn't have enough money to go over and spend time with her until he is sure she is the one -- he shouldn't be doing this.

It is MORE expensive to bring someone over and have it not work out. BY FAR...

But, you are waaay too idealistic if you think that you can ever be "sure there is a future".

I married a wonderful AW. I was SURE that we would be together forever. Three years later it was over. Neither of us could have predicted, or prevented it.

And I am talking about someone I saw several times a week, and talked to every night for the whole dating period. And we spoke each other's language, shared each other's culture, and were even within 3 months of each other in age, so we grew up watching the same dumb TV shows, and buying the same candy as kids.

You can NEVER be sure.

You can only make the best decision you can.

You only owe a woman honesty and sincerety. Green Card is nothing you should feel obligated to provide.

I don't care if She's Old Mother Hubbard and has so many kids that she doesn't know WHAT to do. That's not your fault... and that's not your responsibility.

Period.

... in response to Re: Re: Sometimes it's not worth providi..., posted by Mike on Jan 29, 2002

First of all, I will agree with you, that when a child, or children, are involved the rules change as the stakes are much higher.

Second of all, how high of a price would you be willing to pay to allow her/them to stay?  For example, are you living in a community property state?  Or, do you live in Florida, where the homestead act makes your wife an equal owner of your house, not just entitled to half of the appreciation after the marraige.

This is not to mention the emotional costs to all parties.

Disclaimer, these are just some thoughts I've been think lately.  That said, it would be nice if everything worked out: you know the "lived happily ever after" part of fairy tales...

Richard

... in response to Re: Sometimes it's not worth providing h..., posted by Richard on Jan 29, 2002

More like 50/50.  Spend such a short time together as most of us guys, usually less than a month to a week with that special lady.

Unlike Dan who has lived there for a long period of time, he has found a real diamond in the rough.  We're like pearl divers, we can only hold our breaths for so long (two weeks normally), in hopes of finding that real gem.

You know that's the biggest problem with traveling 3500 miles and visiting someone who hardly speaks english, and trying to make heads or tails of a relationship.

I have atleast had the luxury of using Marty's wife to ask this young lady a few questions.  I and I must confess that I put some weight on decision making on what his wife says about my girl.

Let me put it to you this way.  The last time I was in Kiev and had some time to myself, I did stop in to a marriage agency and looked through all their catalog of pretty women.  But I just didn't have the interest in looking for someone else.

I think, I've found the closest match for myself.  There are still alot of question we have to ask one another.

I'm sure there are alot of guys out there that are looking for the perfect lady and have dated hundreds and are still looking.  They're lost in a sea of beautiful women. Because they really don't know what they're looking for.

Then again, there are guys that meet one lady, who is not perfect in every way, shape or form.  And they'll marry them and live happily ever after.

I don't want to marry someone I am infatuated with or total dropdead beautiful girl.  I want to marry someone because of her personal character and qualities, I'm not a beautiful guy, I'm a average dude.  

 

... in response to Re: I don't think anyone can be 100% sur..., posted by wsbill on Jan 29, 2002

It cracks me up every time I think about it.  Such a great analogy Bill.  

"We're like pearl divers, we can only hold our breaths for so long (two weeks normally), in hopes of finding that real gem."

... in response to Re: I don't think anyone can be 100% sur..., posted by wsbill on Jan 29, 2002

I especially liked this

"Unlike Dan who has lived there for a long period of time, he has found a real diamond in the rough. We're like pearl divers, we can only hold our breaths for so long (two weeks normally), in hopes of finding that real gem."

... in response to Re: I don't think anyone can be 100% sur..., posted by wsbill on Jan 29, 2002

You're right about not being able to be 100% sure: I was overstating my case to make a point.  You do seem to be sure enough about this.

... in response to Re: Gee, isn't that why the INS gives yo..., posted by wsbill on Jan 29, 2002

Bill,

The 90-day period for the K-1 is for couples that are already committed to marriage and are simply in need of some time (90 days) to make arrangements.

If you present yourself and your lady to the INS as if you are planning to use the 90-day window to MAKE a decision, they will probably make it difficult for her to gain access to the country.

I am not saying people don't use this 90-day period for exactly the purpose you described - only that it was never intended for that purpose by the INS - so be cautious how you describe it to your lady and especially how you respond to INS questioning.

- Dan

... in response to Nope, Nada, Nyet . . ., posted by Dan on Jan 29, 2002

I suspect there is a VERY high percentage rate of men that bring girls here just to see if it is going to work or not before making the plung.
Mike

... in response to Nope, Nada, Nyet . . ., posted by Dan on Jan 29, 2002

Well, ya learn something new everyday on this message board.

Who sez my post are a frivious waste of space.

Thanks Dan, for clarifying that.

http://www.geocities.com/wsbill

... in response to ending my engagement...final part, posted by SteveD on Jan 29, 2002

Well, Steve, after the feelings fade away, you're going to be really pissed at how she treated you. I personally think you're being too nice and giving her way too much credit. You did react in the correct way though, by just letting her go and letting the whole mess go.

At least you know the next time around the type of personality traits to avoid and perhaps the traits to look for. There is something you can give her credit for, and that is that she felt guilty about stringing you along for so long. Her behavior was a loud indication of her true feelings.

Good luck on the next go round.

-blm

... in response to ending my engagement...final part, posted by SteveD on Jan 29, 2002

Sounds like you both knew that it wasn't working out.  Calling off the engagement has freed the both of you up to find more compatible mates.  I wish you both better luck next time.