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Happy New Year Guys!

I decided to write this message after I read a post in "Russian wives abroad" discussion site.

Here are what a “lovely” Russian wife (ex-wife) wrote:

"I am one of these (women) that came here to get a green card and to divide all the property after divorce.  I achieved both with the help of an immigrant Russian layer.  We were not sure if I could get 50 % of all property, but my attorney fought for me pretty aggressively (he hates Americans very much). And please note that these are many women like I. Many of whom are my attorney’s clients."

I am a Russian wife myself, but people like this woman just make me sick.

Please do not get blinded by your wife's charms.  

PLEASE for your sake and protection make your Russian wife sign a prenuptial agreement to protect yourself from HER.

... in response to prenuptial agreement, posted by russian2000 on Jan 1, 2002

previously I had nuttin'
speaking of nuttin'.............how was everyone's New Years
...........LP Happy 2002-----------I hope you do a lot of nuttin' this year------------and yes I mean it the dirty way. :)
Joe

... in response to prenuptial agreement, posted by russian2000 on Jan 1, 2002

"Trust in God -- But keep your powder dry"
         -- motto of the Minute Men Militia

I am a hopeless romantic.

I have always thought that pre-nups were cold, calculated,and a sure sign that you expected your marriage to fail...

However... I am 40 years old, and have no equity or savings right now. My first wife got the house in our settlemebnt and squandared it. (After letting it go four months delinquent in payments -- thus ruining my credit -- she sold it for a fraction of what it was worth. My cut? Nothing.)

I have a daughter. She needs for me to be smart with my money and assets from here on out. I don't want to leave her with nothing. I don't want to not be able to send her to college. And I don't want her to be caring for me in my old age.

Guys... PLEASE...

Believe in true love -- be careful of who you marry -- love her like it's never going to end

AND GET A PRENUP SIGNED!!!!

... in response to prenuptial agreement, posted by russian2000 on Jan 1, 2002

...to be astonished at the lack of knowledge here regarding prenups. Never have I seen so much incorrect or poorly understood information bantered about.

I won't go into a long dissertation on the subject but I suggest people do some research before they offer up any information.

I will dispel some "facts" however:

1)The general idea that a prenup is "anti romantic" and shows a lack of trust in a marriage is widely considered nonsense these days. More and more couples do them every year and for good reasons not related to trust or "love". Quite the contrary, prenups are considered by more and more couples as an intelligent sign of good planning. The facts are, if you have a business or substantial assets and she does not, you'd better have one.

2)Prenups are not worth the paper they're written on and a judge can modify them.

This is pure nonsense. Premarital agreements executed on or after January 1, 1986 are subject to the Uniform Premarital Agreement Act, a law passed *just* to prevent this. The key to a solid prenup is twofold: *full* disclosure of assets at the time and *independent* consul for both parties. This is especialy true with R/W, you'd better have a Russian speaking lawyer for her so she understands everything completely.

If the above conditions are met and the prenup is executed as far in advance of the wedding as possible, in 99% of the cases a judge is powerless to alter the conditions of a prenup. There are further simple steps one can take to make it completely airtight.

3) Property:

AZ, CA, ID, LA, NV, NM, TX, WA, and WI are the only Community Property states at the present time. You'd best understand the difference between community property and seperate property in these states as well as how property is equitably divided in non-community property states.
I won't bore you with the details, I suggest you search on "prenups" and study everything you find. There is a wealth of information to be had about this subject.

I could go on and on. Never have I seen so much misinformation about a subject offered by people purported to know about it. The choice is still an individual one but personally, you'd be crazy not to have one, regardless of what culture your wife comes from.  

Consult with an an attorney in your state and you'll find the facts are as follows: Prenups are a widely accepted concept by intelligent couples these days, there is no longer any stigma attachted to them and, properly executed as above, are rock solid in court.

Finally, the concept that marriage is "forever" and "until death do us part" is all one needs to reject the idea of a prenup is an astonishingly simplistic attitude and bordering on insanity in my opinion, especially if one has been married before. Even a Boy Scout lives by a better creed than that.

... in response to I continue...., posted by LP on Jan 2, 2002

she knows me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!and if she parts with my sh1t it will be the death of her! :p
Joe

... in response to I continue...., posted by LP on Jan 2, 2002

LP, you are right, one more time,
and futhermore, do not worry about the RW not knowing about the "prenups" contract,  most of them do know
the law, of the country where they are going) better than the average guy, who thinks he is saving them from a
life of hell and taking them to the land of milk and honey.

... in response to I continue...., posted by LP on Jan 2, 2002

I agree with what you are saying.  However, there is one thing I have been wondering about:  how do you go about getting your fiance' an "independent" lawyer when you, most likely, are paying for her lawyer.  The separate lawyers, especially one that can speak her native tongue is, hopefully, easy, but I wonder if she can challenge the prenup on the grounds that her lawyer wasn't independent in that the husband paid for the lawyer.  I geuss that is something to discuss with the lawyer...

... in response to Re: I continue...., posted by Richard on Jan 2, 2002

...Trust me, her attorney will work in her best interests no matter who foots the bill. In fact, a good divorce guy recently told me that your paying for her independent counsel is recommended as it shows a good faith attempt in assuring an equitable agreement at *your* expense.

It's just one of many details that can be done to assure it holds up in court. However, as long as full disclosure is made, each party has independent counsel, the agreement was not completed under duress, and there are no stipulations in the prenup that could invalidate any due process of law, (such as community property statues) it *must* be upheld. The PMAA of 1986 was enacted for just this reason, to assure that judges must follow set standards in evaluating prenups. If you meet those standards when executing the agreement (thats the real trick), it *has* to stand up.

I'm not an attorney and there is much more to know about this topic from a legal point of view, but the nonsense I see posted here sometimes makes me shake my head. Wether you choose to do a prenup or not is up to you. Frankly, you would have to be daft to not seriously consider it, in my opinion. I know in my case I'd be a fool to ignore having one and I'm in a community property state.

Hey, don't believe anything people tell you, including me. It's in my nature to gather all the information I can from reliable sources about anything I get involved in. This takes time, money and *multiple* opinions from experts in whatever field of endeavor I'm looking at. Do your research and then go get further facts from people who should know. Doing this allows you to know the subject matter and permits you to evaluate the "expert" you're consulting.

Never go into anything blind, never rely totaly on someone else to educate you about *anything*, even a so called expert. By knowing something about it beforehand you can make far more intelligent choices about any decision.
When *multiple* expert opinions coicide with what *you've* learned on your own, then you can start to feel comfortably in control and proceed further.

After all, it's *your* ass on the line. Alawys begin by educating yourself first. Remember, knowledge is power.

... in response to I continue...., posted by LP on Jan 2, 2002

I often disagree with LP; but this time he is very right.

Mark

... in response to prenuptial agreement, posted by russian2000 on Jan 1, 2002

I can vouch for the authenticity of this post. Whether one decides on a pre-nupt or not is a personal decision; but I once asked my wife to read the posts at Russian Wives Abroad forum, which has a Russian language section; a lot of the posts were from disgruntled wives; most of the posts dealt with money issues; how they can get help from the system. This is communication between them and not meant for AM.
My wife was shocked, but the fact that RW get to know the system very quickly; and if they came here just for the green card, they can get it... without you.

Ask your wife or girl friend to read the Board; it would be a revelation.

Mark

... in response to prenuptial agreement, posted by russian2000 on Jan 1, 2002

I don't know how many states let the woman just take half the man's property after a few years but liberal judges do strange things.  If you live in a community property state it doesn't mean that half your property automatically becomes hers after marriage.  You would have to convert it to community property by putting her name on it as with a house, brokerage account or bank account. It would also be community property if it was acquired after marriage.  Some states will convert a couples property to community property after 10 years of marriage.  That's why Tom Cruise can't keep a wife for 10 years.  Florida does that too and one of my coworkers lost half his marriage property to his unfaithful American wife and he had to pay her alimony while she lived with her new boyfriend.  

If you have a business, substantial assets or children from a previous marriage, you should do a prenup.  Always consult a lawyer before marriage.  The woman must be represented by her own lawyer and should have a translator to help her understand what she is signing.  You have to disclose all assets and you can't force her to sign within the last 30 days of her 90 day K1 visa.  

I know some of you guys think marriage should last forever but that's what I thought the first time.  My wife behaved drastically different after we got married.  I don't think it's realistic to say that you should know you wife very well before you marry her either.  It will take you 5 to 10 years to get to really know a woman.  I have had one woman ask me about American divorce laws because she wanted to marry an American man, then divorce him after she got to the US.  Always CYA in case the worst happens or else you'll feel pretty stupid.  Then you can join that other forum (RWNA) but don't come crying to us at this forum.

... in response to prenuptial agreement, posted by russian2000 on Jan 1, 2002

How about being sure of the person that you are going to marry instead of trying to rely on the legal system to safeguard yourself.

Prenups are ify at best and almost any (scumbag) lawyer will shoot them so full of holes that they will be next to worthless.

Use your head (the big one), take your time, and be sure that you know the person that you are going to marry.

One of the biggest problems with our society today, IMO, is that people refuse to take responsibility for their actions.

Marriage is suppose to be FOREVER people. You are giving your spouse half of everything that you own. That is the whole idea (share and share alike until death do us part). If you need to provide an escape clause to secure your future (just in case), you are dooming your marriage to failure.

... in response to Oh Jeez..., posted by Rags on Jan 1, 2002

You're right: marriage is supposed to be forever - or until death (by natural causes) does the couple part.  However, it does not always work out like this.   Many of us here are pursing second marriages.

... in response to Re: Oh Jeez..., posted by Richard on Jan 1, 2002

.... I'd expect that kind of thinking from a kid, but not a 46 year old. Rags, I can *maybe* forgive your statement (given that you're newly married and happy as a clam at this point), but once again I'll point out the obvious:

Just how many people *aren't* "sure" about being right for each other the day they marry? Every single couple who stands upon the alter today (and in the past) professes undying love, swears they will edure, they will be different. 100% are sure in their minds, yet in this country 50% will fail. And in many cases fail in a way so acrimonious that assault and murder is often involved. At minimum, it's usually a torturous legal and emotional demise to those who were "sure" not so long before.

And most of these "sure" folks were likely the result of longterm, well developed relationships, not the typical FSU song and dance. Is this your first marriage? If not, I can't believe you would make such an illogical statement. (In fact, I can't believe you'd make it even if this *is* your first marraige.)

This common sense and well known knowledge are one of the few things you *should* be "sure" about. That, and people can bend logic in astounding ways to rationalize any action they wish to make. Of course, logic and reason does not work on drunken men.

So whats your excuse? Are you one of those guys who thinks his "sureness" is "different" from everyone else's? That in "your case" it really is a "sure" thing? lol...If so, you'd be another example of how people's common sense can be swayed by the Power, and once again proves my theory that being in love is the *worst* time to get married. In addition, your
comments amount to quite a statement to make after only a short time of being marriage.

It's all a crap shoot, plain and simple. Your situation is no different than the millions who've come before you, regardless of who they married.
In fact, your progress and thinking at this point is typical of all those who came before you and failed. If you actually think you're situation is different enough to ignore the possibility of failure (and it's financial consequences), you be in one serious delusional state.

lol, sometimes you guys just slay me.

... in response to Jeez is right..., posted by LP on Jan 2, 2002

Hey LP, I've got 15 years of marriage(s) behind me (don't you read profiles) so I can speak with some authority on this subject. That's my "excuse".

What's with the attitude? Not getting any lately?

And I might add that I AM happier than any clam has any right to be. I have learned from my past mistakes and hopefully have got it right this time. Only time will tell. (Check back with me in a couple of decades O.K.)

I have no great delusions of fairy tale marriages and have faced the financial crisis when mine have failed. I was, even in my prior ignorance, smart enough to choose women that allowed me a fair (and undisputed) settlement when it came time to part.

My point was that if you are not willing to give her half of everything that you have and will have, DON'T DO IT!

And what's with "being in love is the *worse* time to get married"? Dude, you had better just stay on the sidelines and dream about what some of us have 'cause your priorities are all screwed up. There is no way that you can make a marriage work (and it IS work) with such paranoia and mistrust.

Oh yeah, what's with the "drunken men" crack?

P.S. Good luck and keep looking for that 100% garuntee, I'm sure that there is one out there somewhere.

... in response to Re: Jeez is right..., posted by Rags on Jan 3, 2002

..Lemme get this straight.

You have 15 years of failed marriage(s!)behind you and yet you claim a belief of not needing a prenup if one "makes sure of the person your marrying"?!? Say what??

*Thats* your excuse? You have multiple failed marriages and from those experiences you've now concluded you're "sure" that this one will work? Weren't you just as sure about the others?

I don't get it. If I was you, I wouldn't be bragging about this kind of "logic". Actualy, it *does* sound like the "reasoning" of a drunken man. lol, you be a funny guy!

Btw, I'm gettin plenty. And without the hassle, risks, expense, and travel to another country to find it. All the benefits, with none of the problems.

Who's closer to 100%?

... in response to prenuptial agreement, posted by russian2000 on Jan 1, 2002

Hello Russian2000.   These women had better be sure that their fiancee lives in a community property state or they will get NOTHING if he owned the assets before.   Except the house. An attorney told me that even if you owned a house outright, it IS possible for the man to lose up to 1/2 of the house as it COULD be sold and the proceeds divided. Normally he stated that many men just rent for their ex an apartment or the judge deems this and some alimony and he keeps the house.  Of course judges rulings are as numerous and varied as the stars and every case can and will no doubtedly be different too.    tim

... in response to Re: prenuptial agreement, posted by Tim Collins 333 on Jan 1, 2002

Some confusion here. You infer that the husband's pre-marraige property becomes community property after marraige in a community property state. This is not the case. Pre-marraige property does NOT convert to community property - it remains the husband's seperate property.

... in response to Re: Re: prenuptial agreement, posted by WilliamF on Jan 2, 2002

Exactly.   I forgot to put the "non" in front of the "community."  Thanks for noticing!!  I live in Oregon...........squeezed between two community property states, Washington and California.   I did not do this by design of course, I realized this AFTER I was engaged. After mulling it over, I decided not to acquire a pre-nup as it seems to me as if it is like bringing a bodybag to a wedding. Personally, I have never heard of a pre-nup working in these type of relationships and I do not want to convey a feeling of mistrust to her when she is preparing for the interview.         tim

... in response to Re: prenuptial agreement, posted by Tim Collins 333 on Jan 1, 2002

That's not quite right - at least in my understanding.

As I understand it there are / were (my information is 6 years old) situations.

One is community property: all assets of both spouses are put into one pool (community property) and split evenly.

The other, and most common, is equitable distribution.  In this situation, each spouse retains the value of what they owned, *at the time of the marriage* and split any appreciation in the value of the of assets owned before the marriage as well as any joint (vs. community) property that they have acquired since the marriage.  (For example if the American partner owns a house before the marriage, the increased value of the house after the marriage is considered joint property and split by the spouses in the event of a divorce.)  Joint property is split *equitably* not 50 50.  For example, if one spouse is unable to work and support his/herself this spouse would receive more of the joint assets than the other spouse.  The split could potentially be 80% for the non working spouse vs. 20% for the other spouse.

One thing that should be noted is that if you ever live in a community property state, your separate property converts to community property and remains community property even though you later move to an equitable distribution state.

The last category is what is known as a title state: the property belongs to whomever is on the title.  Last I heard, Mississippi was the only remaining title state, but that may have changed.

Disclaimers:

1) I am not a lawyer.

2) My knowledge comes from discussions with lawyers in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Hence, this may not be correct elsewhere.  (For example, the Florida Homestead Act needs to be taken in consideration by those of us who live in Florida.)

3) My knowledge is from the early to mid 90's.

... in response to Re: Re: prenuptial agreement, posted by Richard on Jan 1, 2002

They will tell you whatever sounds good or what you want to hear.

My last divorce was in CA (a community property state) and everything that I had before my marriage was mine. Only items purchased after the marriage were common property. The same goes for retirement, savings, investments, etc.

BTW, do you know how to tell when a lawyer is lying? Their lips move.

... in response to Don't trust lawyers Richard, posted by Rags on Jan 3, 2002

I'm glad to hear that I was wrong about your premarital property.