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After almost two years of searching, writing letters, sending photgraphs,
talking on the phone I have decided that I am calling it quits in my pursuit of
a russian bride. After my 12 year marriage ended due to my wife's infidelity, I
tried entering the dating circle again, but after all those years being married
I felt strange and very uncomfortable most of the time. Also the quality of the
women I was dating was not as high as I would have liked. At the rate I was
going I envisioned myself having my wedding and first social security check on
the same day. I am a conservative type of person with a decent blue collar job,
a nice home and all the trappings of a decent life, a life I wanted to share
with someone.

I discovered electronic dating by accident after frequenting the aol chatterooms
and meeting another man who was looking into the concept. It turned out that we
lived pretty close to each other and became friends. He ended up taking the
plunge and is married now, more on that later. I took a more shy approach and
cast my line out to see what I could catch. I soon found out the sea is full of
fish and my nets were almost always coming in full to the brim. Although most of
my catch were throwbacks. Through the information I could dig up I learned the
ropes and although I did fall for a couple of minor scams, I learned quickly and
was never out any significant amount of money.
Over the last two years I started to become obsessed with the entire russian
woman idea and gradually It started to consume me to the point that my
personality changed, my mom and dad started wondering about my welfare and the
people I employ started making fun of the way I was acting.
It's not like I was psychotic or anything but more that I was the all knowing
xpert on russian women and electronic dating. Nobody else's opinion mattered but
mine and everbody else was wrong except for me.
If I saw a negative story about mail order wives on the tube it was always the
press that was wrong. When my firends chiided me about picking a wife from a
catalog it was them that were wrong and not me.
When I read of other men getting married and their rw trading up on them I
always convinced myself that there must be something wrong with those men and
this would never happen to me.

My wake up call started when the man I mentioned began to have problems with his
russian wife. He got engaged on his first trip and they were married within the
year. He is 50 and owns a  brick company and she is 28 and was a nurse in
russia. Things started out ok until she discovered how to spend his money faster
than he could print it. As it turned out she had met another russian woman
online who was having marriage troubles as well and it just went downhill from
there. While they are still married and in counseling it looks doomed to me but
I hope I am wrong.

As I learned of other american man russian woman couples having troubles I
started to wonder if there was a single reason for these failures and I came to
the conclusion that the entire system is flawed but nobody really wants to admit
it. A couple of evenings at russian mixers confirmed my suspicians. For those of
you lucky to live in a large city the local shooper guids usually list social
events and in my town we have a russian woman/man social that meets twice a
month. The advertisements are usually in the same section as the big beautiful
woman socials and parents without partners meetings.

The first time I wnet to one of the mixers I was very uncomfortable and I was
pretty much ignored but things did get better as the night went along and I
ended up meeting a very nice, outgoing russian lady who ended up becoming a very
good friend of mine. I learned so much talking to these russian women, but yet I
did not learn a thing. Like Dorothy in the Wizard of oz I always knew what the
real deal was, I was just to caught up in frenzy to realize it. I learned from
my russian friends, both men and women, that the primary reason for these ladies
seeking american men is to get out of russia and better their lives. Love is a
way distant second behind a willing american male with a bank account.
I learned that many of the women think nothing of sleeping with whomever just to
get what they want or need be it money, clothes, a promotion or what have you.
And the men are no different with  mistresses being a common side hobby.

I learned that russian women who come to america love to spend money and like to
thow temper tantrums when they don't get what they want.

I learned that the man she married to get the visa is only the first step in the
process and if something better comes along she will trade up.

These are hard habits to break.

It was at this point I started to retrace my steps and take a serious look at
the websites, chattergroups, and agencies that I was funneling my email through
and come to some serious, although admittidly broadbased, conclusions.

I was now looking at these women from the same viewpoint that virtually everyone
else in the world will do when they stumble upon the typical dating website.
Here are the conclusions that I have come to.
It's impossible to even have a chance of getting to really know a person via
email and maybe a 0ne week trip to russia.
And marrying a person after such a relationship is mostly suicidal in nature.
What would an american woman say if you asked her to marry you after a
relationship like that?
She would think you were cookooo, unless she was desperate to get married or
something.
You will never know her true motives nor will you know how many have been there
before you. She will drop you like a hot potato when another, more suitable man
starts emailing her. This is especially true for men who marry well above their
real level, meaning the 50 year old marrying the 20 year old.

The entire industry thrives on the horniness, unrealistic expectations and
desperation of the men and couples it with the desire for the russian women to
get to america. It's like one feeds off of the other one in the search for
happiness. Couple this with the rejection from american women that the average
email wife seeking man is likely to have experienced and it becomes like a
sucker pit.
The guy doesn't stand a chance against Madison Avenue like advertising
techniques.

It's all about money, mostly yours and mine and the desire for the dating
serivces to compete to see who can syphon your bank account quicker.

Fiancee visa kits, newpaper advertisements, over priced translation services,
overpriced flower deliveray services and such are only the tip of the iceburg.

The real tip-off to how foolish this entire system is lies in the girls
themselves.

Take a good look at any of the web based dating services and that includes some
of the ones on the A-list.

It seems like sewing, cooking, cleaning and reading good books are the only
things women do in russia. Take a look at some of the age ranges these women
will accept for possible suitors. Sorry, but a 22 year old who is looking for a
man between the ages of 25 and 60 is after one thing only. And this is the norm,
not the exception. It is very difficult to find women who even remotely appear
sincere. And take a look at the pictures. Many of the women look like
professionals to me.

Look at  first dream, one of the better companies  and see for yourself. Check
out ML0201, ML0202 who is 22 years old and looking for a man 45yo to 60yo.

Can you say TRADING UP in 2 years?

And even if you are smart enough to figure this out and laugh about it while
moving on to more reasonable choices, what does it say about the scupoules of
the people running these businesses.
Here are some more look at any of the ladies on the euroladies first page.
Come on already, they look like professionals and I am sure they are good at
whatever they do but cooking, cleaning and sewing isn't high on the list and you
can be sure of that.

These people are appealing to the dumb american man who is eager to part with
his money. This is what the entire concept is based upon. Hard up men who are
looking for non threatening wives and get all caught up in the russian woman
phenomena.
I admit I bought into the program hook line and sinker, but I'm back to reality
now and that reality is no way Jose.
Talk to some russian women who are already living here if you want to know what
the real story is and what the motives of the women really are.
One last thing, I have met several rw/am couples that are very happy and I have
met more than a couple of men who are still looking. These men are everyday
joe's and would make excellent husbands for the right woman but they are just
fooling themselves if they think she is at the end of an email program.

You can find success stories posted on various groups on the internet, but what
you rarely hear about are the failures, mostly because the men are too
embarrassed to admit they were taken in.

My advice is to sit down and take a good honest look at your particular
situation and do what is right for you.
Best wishes and a happy holiday to you, jake

... in response to Time to throw in the towl, posted by jake33 on Dec 22, 2001

I have read some of the posts below and I think RW puts out some great advise.

I myself began my search with blinders on but eventually came to realize the cold hard truth of the reality of life.  But I truly believed that I would find my future wife somewhere in the FSU.

Yes, at first I was really disheartened to hear some terrible stories but I have also heard an equal number of success stories as well.  I told myself that if I had courage and really used my wisdom that I would eventually find a wonderful girl.

My first and foremost advise is to try to pick a lady who fits you.  The majority of guys photos I have seen with their ladies really seem to match in terms of general appearances.  There are a few exceptions but generally.....

I myself found a girl from Ukraine who was not even looking for marriage at the time, yet alone an American man so my situation is a little different since she had more than easy access to be posted on websites and could have an inside line to being "Hooked up" with American guys.

As usual my situation seems to be a little out of the norm but I am 100% sure that her intentions towards me are sincere (no doubt).  The only thing left is to see how she can adapt to life here with me. But that is still a tale yet to be told.

You know that foreign brides are only one way to go and maybe it isn't right for you if you feel it is too risky.  I think if you already have this mindset it will only undermine any trust you could potentially develope and that is the lifeblood of a relationship.  

I don't think that this type of search is for everyone and maybe you just came to the conclusion that it is not right for you but at least now you know where this road ends for you.  I would not however doom all FSU women as being some kind of greedy beings.  After all, look at the diversity of people here. Do you believe that all people here are the same and hold the same beliefs and ideas?

Jim

... in response to Time to throw in the towl, posted by jake33 on Dec 22, 2001

I'd definitely have to agree that those who are fixated on the young "babe" and don't take the time to get to know someone really well before marrying are indeed taking a very risky approach to this.

Nobody should start with the intention of marrying someone they've known only through e-mail, letters, and phone calls after spending little time with them.  We should all plan on multiple visits and a long period of getting to know someone before deciding to marry.  Tripple that for men trying to marry someone far outside the type of women that they could reasonably date here.  I'd call that unrealistic expectations and the agencies are businesses intent on making a profit in an area where building unrealistic expectations sells.

... in response to Time to throw in the towl, posted by jake33 on Dec 22, 2001

that sound like my wife..........hey my little brat is not an angel by any stretch of the imagination and she can get real close to a punch in the mouth-but that is why we work so well together-we have much in common.
Hey dude go to Nigeria there are some hot chicks there and need good husbands,,,,,,,,,,or better yet go to your local strip club and save one of these beauties from destroying her life with a bunch of losers. Oh yeah there are these hefty girls that need love too-because beauty is onlyu skin deep-no matter how thick the skin...........put you money where you mouth is-I know many very intelligent, nice and good American girls that would love to have a good man-if you don't care about looks-my bet is you do------so before you start labeling look at your own superficial needs and quit being a hypocrite crybaby. If you cannot stand the heat-get out da kitchen
Chef Joe

... in response to Time to throw in the towl, posted by jake33 on Dec 22, 2001

What's your detective hubby up to this weekend.Maybe he found a RW to keep him company.

... in response to Time to throw in the towl, posted by jake33 on Dec 22, 2001

It's the woman...It's the woman !
It doesn't matter where she's from. It just doesn't matter.
This isn't "the land of Oz" as the poster alluded.
This is not a cheese hunt. It takes work to make it work.
"...none so blind as those who refuse to see"
I liked that when I read it.
Merry Christmas all
Karl

... in response to Time to throw in the towl, posted by jake33 on Dec 22, 2001

you post another when you get your act together.  You can do better.

... in response to Time to throw in the towl, posted by jake33 on Dec 22, 2001

I didn't read your whole story as it got quite boring and I can only stand so much tear in my beer kinda stories.

Congradulations...  There is exciting American woman just waiting around every corner to meet a really nice guy like you.

Looks like you have been bless.

The good news for me.  I'm not rich, so I won't have any problems with my girl over spending and my credit cards are all maxed out.  So you see, she'll be stuck with me.  Infact, instead of flying my girl over here...she will be coming to America via a Ocean going freightliner, she will no doubt see the world and when she gets here she won't want to travel for a good long while.

Thanks for your tip.

... in response to Re: No doubt about, posted by wsbill on Dec 22, 2001

I thought all MOB came by Fedex OR DHL. Must be some heavy cargo if you have to ship it,but I doubt it,RW are very light.Only AW cows needs to shipped.

... in response to Ocean going freightliner...??????, posted by Cold Warrior on Dec 23, 2001

Think about this for a second, imagine if you could buy passage on a container ship.  Just think how much time alone you could spend with her, walking arm and arm on the deck of that ship.  Seeing worldy ports before arriving in America.

This would actually be an adventure for the both of you as it would definately be interesting.

... in response to Re: I told here we are going to take a p..., posted by wsbill on Dec 23, 2001

Actually, it's done already.  I remember reading about this in the travel section of the newspaper many years ago.  Many freighters have / had a few staterooms that could be booked for passenger travel.  It's a way of going on a route that's not popular for a regular passenger ship.

... in response to Time to throw in the towl, posted by jake33 on Dec 22, 2001

There is a lot of truth in what you say,  but that truth applies to you and to you only.  May be you are Claire, may
you are a troll, what do I care.  What I do know for sure is that, you do not fall for a photo of a girl, 9 hours away,
earlier than you.   You are taking your best shot, by your standards, why shouldn't girl do the same.
One more thing that I do know for sure,  you do not eat the good stuff.  You only get from a girl what you are
giving to her.   You want to use them and you wind up being use.   Fair enough no.
Why come crying, you do need someone to hold on to the light for you.
Do you think that women are different here in North America.  They go for all they can get, like you try to do.
My guess is, if you are true, your prostate is in a swing and you are not too sharp with the stick.

... in response to Re: Time to throw in the towl, posted by micha1 on Dec 22, 2001

It is finish the time, when you could sell the girl short.  May they be american, russian or whatever.
They got smart, but they are still women, give them what they want and need and they will be at your knees.
But remember they are always thinking, you should also.  May you should try thinking about what you could
improve on, do not think for them.

... in response to Time to throw in the towl, posted by jake33 on Dec 22, 2001

Jake,

despite what everybody posted below, that was a good post. It's good to have a realistic view. And you know what, many things you posted are very true andright.  I am not the one to tell you that high demand results in higher supply and whatever you see on the agencies' catalogs is only illustration to that.

But you know what, I think that your post is also a result of feeling hurt, being treated unfair? You think you have been fooled and ready to blame agencies, women (I guess especially Russian women) for doing this to you. And you know what? - you are the only one to do what YOU want to do. You want to find your spouse? There is thousands of way to do it and Russian wife may be not a solution for you. Or may be yes, but it does not have to be some sleezy 20 year old who is looking for sugar daddy. If you don't like that, there are many other ways to do it.

I am really glad that you were able to see through all the scams and bad sides of the industry. In some way it is the same like many of us who come to America start to realize how much everything is driven by one slogan "spend your money!!!". If you don't want to be another person trading for a new car every year, mixing up your credit cards you need to realize WHAT you want in this life and what makes YOU happy and not your bank :)

I think the very last sentence was the best in your post. Do what is right for you. There are plenty of women in US and in Russia who might be what you are looking for. But do YOU know what it is? If yes than stick to it and go for it!!! :)

Merry Christmas,

Russian Wife

... in response to good wake up call for you, posted by RW on Dec 22, 2001

Actually my experiences, excluding the small amount of scams I initally fell for (less than $100.00 overall), were quite positive. I met some truly interesting women and experienced things I never could have experienced had I not tried something different. Everyone is their own person and they are the only ones who know what is best for them. I am not here to judge the guy who falls in love after a week with a lady, nor am I in any position to say that the amrw scene is a total scam. I am merely saying that in my experience the odds against sucess are very high and that falling for the patter that the dating services spew forth is extremely foolish.

If you want to truly evaluate the sincerity and motives of a service, go and look at their webpage and see what they have to offer.

In my opinion a site that has 20 year old women looking for men up to 60 years old speaks for itself.

I have been reading the archives for a while now and I know I am going to be beat up but I have to admire Mdante for the approach he took in bringing his wife here.
Think about it.
What better way to insure yourself against scamming then by having the lady do all the work.
Granted this is less than chiverlous, but still we all have to agree that we are not talking about having malts with jane at the local malt shop here.

My feeling is that the typical scam girl would have balked at his offer simply because there are many more men in the sea just dying to marry her and if she looks half as good in person as her picture that is a fact!!!

This approach is risky and not for the faint of heart, but I suspect it will weed out the low leval scammers.

Personally I don't understand why men who seem to be so interested in Russian culture and women can't find RW here who they can date.
My city is full of them, but understand they don't cook,sew,clean house all day long and you have nothing to offer them other than love and affection.
They are here already.

Jake

... in response to thank you, posted by jake33 on Dec 22, 2001

That's why I posted many times before you should be looking not for RUSSIAN woman, but the WOMAN you want to spend the rest of your life with... She might HAPPEN to be Russian, Ukranian, American,.... (fill in the blank). But if you say she must be Russian because ALL russian women cook, clean the house, have traditional values, sit at home - that is set up for disaster.

On the other hand, I hope that "cook,sew,clean house all day long" are not the only criteria for you.

Russian Wife

... in response to good wake up call for you, posted by RW on Dec 22, 2001

I agree with you and that is why, I was not limiting my search for a nice partner, friend , companion and lover to just this hemisphere. I am very glad that I did not limit myself to here. The gal I found in the ukraine has made me feel more comfortable and appreciated than anyone I ever met before. Just wish she was here know

... in response to Time to throw in the towl, posted by jake33 on Dec 22, 2001

I have nothing to gain or lose by posting a message here. I was simply telling what my 2 years of searching has shown me.

I have nothing against any of the dating services, but I was simply putting some facts on the table for discussion.

I chose FD as an example because it is one of the better services and my point was simply to show that there is a motive involved no matter what you wish to believe.

If I were running an agency and had 20 year old women posting ad's looking for men up to 60 years old I would not allow them to post their advertisements because in my eyes it sullies my reputation and makes me look bad.

As for the ages of the women, I emailed women from 29 to 50 years of age, although the ads I posted got plenty of activity from women under 25 years and as young as 17 years old.

As for the couples I know that are doing well they are way down in the minority, way down...

In short I am simply trying to say that taking an honest, open, non-biased look at the entire system and what you are doing and how you are going about it, will in all likelyhood lead to a healthier and possibly more successful relationship for you and whomever you end up with.

That's really all I meant.

jake.

one last thing, to the person who posted that disgusting diatribe of filth, you really need to have mummy wash your mouth out with a box of Tide. Fortunately you are not typical of the people I have met in this endeavor. Most of them are decent people just looking for happiness.

... in response to Maybe reality is too sad to deal with?, posted by jake33 on Dec 22, 2001

n/t

... in response to Time to throw in the towl, posted by jake33 on Dec 22, 2001

There are some truths in what you have written but you say in one sentence that you know some AM/RWs that are happy and then out of the other corner of your mouth you say you (as in us) don't stand a chance.  Kind of contradictory don't you think?  Also, failures are more likely to be publized while successes are not (can't sell happiness).  Therefore, while there are some truths, such as you can't possibly know a girl in one week, your story just reinterates the fact that this is a slow methodical screening process for those who think with their real heads.  Thanks for helping us drive this point home to the newbies.  Obviously, you didn't learn much in your quest (whether it real or imaginary) since you never referred to experiences with ladies your own age (you seemed fixated on the young ones and age differences, a sure sign of a troll) or what you did to screen them.  I vote troll, but thanks for the entertaining reading.  I was getting kind of bored reading some of the more mundain stuff on the board :)  BTW, trolls typically show up on the weekends.  Gee, is this Saturday?

... in response to Time to throw in the towl, posted by jake33 on Dec 22, 2001

It must be Claire. She mentions Jack's site. Everyone knows she has an itch for Jack. What a weirdo. After the viscious post on RWA attacking Dalton Brooks fiancee you'd think she'd learn by now.

-blm

... in response to Troll time again, posted by BarryM on Dec 22, 2001

I didn't even notice the subtle Jack bashing.  That's another clue right there.  I did notice bad spelling, references to Russian women looking like prostitutes (she loves to say that), overall similar writing style.  Plus, like you say, she comes out on the weekend.

... in response to Time to throw in the towl, posted by jake33 on Dec 22, 2001

Find something better to do Claire.

... in response to Time to throw in the towl, posted by jake33 on Dec 22, 2001

Maybe I'm getting jaded in my old age but how many of these posts can PL.com receive in one month?

I digress.  Jake, thank you for the kind, caring, honest, revealing, bleeding-heart, heard-it-a-million-times-before post.  I'm SO sorry for you situation.  You are the weakest link, goodbye!

... in response to Here we go again..., posted by DR on Dec 22, 2001

...I dunno, but if not, every story is valuable.

DR, me thinks you *are* jaded because your quest is over, but for those who are still lookin, doesn't it occur to you that getting so many of these posts all the time and hearing it elsewhere infers something?

If I heard a tale of woe a "million times" I'd at least be inclined to investigate it more and pay some attention, if only to cover my butt. One thing I would not do is automaticaly decide the guy involved was solely the problem.

This guy makes some very valid observations that coincide with what I've seen also, and that's 1) There are none so blind as those who refuse to see and 2) A cup of water is a fortune to a man dying of thirst.

Not 100%, but lots of truth there for those willing to open their eyes.

... in response to Is this a troll?....., posted by LP on Dec 22, 2001

I've been wrong before when I said someone probably isn't a troll, but this guy doesn't fit any of the electronic signatures of known trolls.  The only troll-like attribute that he displays is that his first post is negative and done on a weekend.

Unless one of the four known trolls responsible for the majority of the "negative" posts (with changing stories) has changed their internet provider (and other things) then this is someone new.

... in response to Doesn't fit any of my profiles, posted by Patrick on Dec 24, 2001

They should put you in charge of Airline security, and the guy running Airline security in charge of Planet Love.

... in response to Is this a troll?....., posted by LP on Dec 22, 2001

LP
your comments are very justified, he speaks with a lot of truth, and deaf ears dont like truths ! Its just more good advice.
Good Luck
John

... in response to Spot On LP, 100%, posted by JohnL on Dec 22, 2001

....He seems legit, post is long and he seems sincere,
but everyone here knows what a lousy judge of character I am. :-)

Still, what he says has a lot of merit, in a general sense and much of it has been my experience also. (lol..wait, that didn't come out right.)

I'll defer to these guys, who are better than me at smellin a bad one, but I dunno....

... in response to Is this a troll?....., posted by LP on Dec 22, 2001

Picture a fecal covered fat hairy anus puckered up 2 inches from your nose. That's what the troll post is. If you've hang around sh!t long enough, you forget what it smells like!

The subject of scammers, visa foxes and other RW hookers is overblown on here. It seems to be the #1 subject discussed on here and very few people seem to know what they're talking about concerning it.

-blm

... in response to Is this a troll?....., posted by LP on Dec 22, 2001

lp, if you cannot tell this is a troll then you have drank to much holiday cheer!

... in response to Is this a troll?....., posted by LP on Dec 22, 2001

Listen, I'm not here to save anyone and neither is Jake.  If Jake was sincere, he'd just vanish...*poof*...instead of departing with a singular post!  So melodramatic it's sickening.  It's even written in the EXACT SAME STYLE as some of the previous posts.  Check it out for yourself.  You can change the subject matter but it's much harder to change the style or writing when it's written by the SAME person!  Ha!  ;)

"If I heard a tale of woe a "million times" I'd at least be inclined to investigate it more and pay some attention, if only to cover my butt. One thing I would not do is automaticaly decide the guy involved was solely the problem."

Hearing tales of woe only serve to make people paranoid and second-guess themselves.  Who needs that?  Make solid/sound decisions, take decisive action, and don't look back.

Also, I hope you're not implying that I 'decided automatically that this guy was the problem'.  To do such would imply that I took this person's email seriously...which I did not!  ;)

"Not 100%, but lots of truth there for those willing to open their eyes."

Again, let me emphasize one point, even liars tell the truth sometimes.  However, which are the lies and which are the truths?  ;)  My money's on him being a troll!

... in response to Even liars tell the truth sometimes..., posted by DR on Dec 22, 2001

It took them a year to stop ending with the word "loser" in their posts.  It makes them sound more sincere.  

I think if we were seeing a bunch of individual guys writing about their negative experiences, they would sound different every time.  Maybe this person took my creative writing criticism to heart, you can't just keep pasting the same material here over and over.  Write something new.

... in response to Yeah, it looks familiar, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 22, 2001

Bad spelling and references to all the women looking like prostitutes.  I think Claire is trying to spell better but she's not educated and it's an uphill battle against years of ignorance.  The ending is somewhat kinder and gentler than in the past but still not that different.

... in response to Yeah, it looks familiar, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 22, 2001

I remember that very post of yours.  Man, that seems like such a LONG time ago.  Time flies, huh?  :D

Cheers...
DR

... in response to Even liars tell the truth sometimes..., posted by DR on Dec 22, 2001

....to you guy's superior troll sniffing, I'm not so good at that. (He is registered and has a profile, guess that means squat.) lol..Guess that makes me a trusting cynic, a very strange breed indeed.

Troll or not, me thinks he speaks some truth, his tale may be a fabrication but some of his generalities ring very true.

DR, paranoia and second guessin will save your butt when you *can't* make sound/solid decisions. It can actually be a heathly thing if used properly.

Jaded in your old age? lol..No offense, but I see you're 27. Just how many whacks can you have had at 27? You need to get beat up some more. :-) *I* claim jadedness, I was married with kids before you were born. (ouch, it hurts to say it :-) I envy you, you can afford "not to look back" becuase the road streches so far out ahead. :-)

My point is that paranoia and second guessing is a learned skill, and is a heathly thing in moderation. In the professions I've been in, lack of it can kill you.

lol...But I gotta admit, you be a Jedi troll hunter, ya musta trained early. :-)

... in response to OK, I bow...., posted by LP on Dec 22, 2001

"Troll or not, me thinks he speaks some truth, his tale may be a fabrication but some of his generalities ring very true."

I agree with you completely that there may be elements of truth tucked away in 'his' message...but those elements aren't limited to relationships with RW/UW.  Furthermore, 'his' post is no different from what is always stated here.  The only difference is that 'his' post is disingenuous...and I object to such behavior.  When Claire (see archives if you don't know who she is) *first* began 'trolling' here, she at least attacked people directly.  This person, whether Claire or not, hides behind false pretenses and facades.  Why?  I think it's because this person has no real experience with marriage to a RW/UW and needs to fabricate stories in order to strengthen 'his' argument.  

Let me say one more thing about this issue before I move to the next topic.  Whenever I read a post here at PL.com like the one in question, I always have this question in the back of my mind, 'Why did this person write this'?  In the case with 'Jake', why did 'Jake' spend 30-60 minutes writing that long series of paragraphs that most people didn't even read?  This question is rhetorical...just something to think about.

"DR, paranoia and second guessin will save your butt when you *can't* make sound/solid decisions. It can actually be a heathly thing if used properly."

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.  I will not let paranoia and second-guesses ruin/taint my perfectly healthy marriage.  Taken in context with the rest of your message, I understand your point about me being young and having the freedom to hold such an opinion; I can't argue with you there.  And, I'd like to say, from your lips to God's ear.  ;)

"Just how many whacks can you have had at 27?"

As far as relationships are concerned, umm, not many whacks at all.  I think I've fared pretty well, actually.  :D  

Now then, what I'm about to write is a bit of a departure from the body and spirit of this post but you brought up the issue of age so I think it's appropriate to make these comments.  As a young person, I must admit to you that it's a bit troublesome to read some of the posts here at PL.com.  I jokingly referred to myself as being 'jaded' earlier when I wanted to minimize the vitriol of my initial post to 'Jake'.  However, 'jaded' is a poor word choice considering that I have always been disappointed by the behavior of some of my 'elders' here at PL.com, even during my first week here almost 2 years ago.  Certainly, some of the poor behaviors displayed here are due to failed relationships...emotional baggage and what-not...but, as we all know, explanations of poor behavior are no excuses for poor behavior.  I don't know what drives 'Jake' exactly but I wish 'he' and his ilk would move along quietly...freeing bandwidth for the genuine, rational folk to discuss issues with sincerity.

Hmm.  I think maybe my time at PL.com is coming to an end.  I've garnered just about every nugget of truth to be found here.  It's been fun...but, as you even said, "my search is over".  

Cheers...
DR

... in response to Okay...your post deserves better treatme..., posted by DR on Dec 22, 2001

..with much of what you say. About paranioa and second guessing: I was speaking in general terms, not just about marriage. A dose of suspicion about most things does no harm. Call it learned intuition, a gut feeling, the hair on the back of your neck standing up kinda thing.

As for marriage, they all start out well. People change and bad things sometimes happen that you can't control. I hope you never know the feeling of helplessness that occurs when you simply can't stop the downward spiral between you and a loved one. Add in some betrayal, a dash of infidelity, and a pinch of outright dishonesty and you'll reach a point where you'll be circling the drain so fast you'll never know what happened. The worst part is that it can scar your soul for a very long time.

If you've escaped many whacks thus far, you've been very fortunate. However, in a general sense, your time may well be coming as it does for 95% of us. You're young and have much time to suffer the emotional trauma that life mets out, often with little notice. I hope you get less than your "fair" share but, statisticly speaking, there is seldom avoiding most of it. All you can do is try to control what you can, so as to not perpertrate any upon yourself. Believe me, there are enough folks who'll do it for you.

Keeping all this in mind, try to forgive your "elders" (including me) for their behavior here at times. Yes, me thinks you be correct in that much of it is due to stress, as I suspect some here have had or are having a tough time. Yes, it seems at first glance that would be a poor excuse but as you age life often becomes more complicated and the pressure builds instead of remaining at the the same level.

lol..I'm reminded of a youngster that once told an old man he wasn't "with it". The old guy growled: "I used to be with "it", then "it" all changed and became very confusing and scary to me."   He then leaned right into the youngster's face, lowered his voice and whispered: "It'll happen to you".

Jeesh, sorry to sound so fatalistic but thats what age (life experience) can sometimes do. Glad to see you have an open mind about it, many guys your age still think they know it all, like when we were teens. Marriage and kids will wise people up quickly and you've got a good start on that road. It just goes by so fast, sometimes it's unsettling when you finally realize your rushing head long towards the Big Sleep. lol..We all oughta be born with a clock imbedded in our chests that counts down, then we would look at life in quite a different way. Even without, it's good to keep in mind that no one gets out alive. :-)

Yeah, I know who ClairWitch is, not much we can do about her. Jake? Well, it seems his post had everything to do with R/W, and only R/W. Your comment that his situation would apply to any relationship seems in error, at least keeping in mind he was refering to an FSU search.

I submit that your situation may skew your veiwpoint because you're finsihed with the phase he was in, you're now in "phase two". While married guys like you have much to offer on phase two, it seems only natural that they would have a slight aversion to those who "whine" about not having the same luck. After all, you've been successful, and if you did it why can't they? lol...thats a rhetorical question for you also :-) Just try to keep in mind that there but for the grace of God.....

His post may have been no different than "whats always stated here", but that doesn't change the fact much of it is truth and he may not have visited us much before he made it. Maybe he simply found us and decided he would try to "help" us out. After all, wanting to help others is basic human nature. Why did he write all that? I think he was just trying to offer us his experiences, simple as that. The fact that they were a rehashing of whats been here so many times before actually seems valuable to me, it's one more data point. After all, knowledge is power.

FWIW, old Jake emailed me after he got beat up. I know that doesn't mean much, but in talking to him I got the impression he was only trying to help. He just couldn't pull it off, didn't know how. Frankly, to tar and feather a guy, then run him outta town on a rail based only on intuition is a behavior here thats disappointing to me. We could have given him the benefit of the doubt, at least beyond one post. Oh well, your tolerance will increase with the number of your years, Grasshoppa. :-)

lol...Never been much of a philosopher, see how long and boring this post is? While I'm keenly aware perhaps thousands will read these words, my writing style is always as if I'm writing privately to the one I'm posting to, in this case you. Thanx for stickin with it, the others can take a hike. :-)

My best wishes for the new year and many more to come.

... in response to Okay...your post deserves better treatme..., posted by DR on Dec 22, 2001

I hope things go well for you and you can come back with some positive progress reports.  Guys don't post much after they get married and I can't blame them.  You're in a high stress situation with medical school.  

The reason you stuck in my mind over the many other posters here is because my brother in law did some of his pre med at Vandy and several of my friends went there.  He's a very successful doctor now and sister is very happy with him.

... in response to OK, I bow...., posted by LP on Dec 22, 2001

n/t

... in response to Trained by David Caradine himself, grass..., posted by DR on Dec 22, 2001

n.t