Planet-Love.com Searchable Archives

This message is just a general one of sadness mixed with disgust.  As I have been watching the news coverage of this terrible natural disaster, it is apparant that we are witnessing the best and worst of human behavior.  I know that the response time must seem slow to the people that are there living in those terrible and desperate conditions.  But, as the Director of FEMA has stated, he was waiting for the conditions to stablize, otherwise, his medical and rescue teams would become casualties themselves.  The looting, shooting and other "low life" behavior has shown up very quickly.  The Gulf coast  in general; and in particular, the New Orleans area has always had a lot of poverty and crime anyhow.  Now, everything has degenerated into chaos!  I am praying for the good people in that area, as I am sure all of you are too. Back in 1978, I was stationed at Keesler AFB in Biloxi, MS, and I have travelled to New Orleans and other Gulf Coast areas too.  Back in the late '60's, I lived in the Houston, TX area, so I am rather familiar with those States and areas.  It is all such a sad situation!  I thought Hurrican Andrew was about as bad as it could get; but Katrina has seemingly trumped that!  It is all very sad.  Of course, we are all being hit hard by the high gas prices.  I am just trying to survive through this.  I own a small business, and I drive a lot because I do business in many schools.  This is really hurting me on that score.  Well, I just wanted to share my thoughts.  God Bless America!  WE NEED HIM NOW!

                                   OkieMan

... in response to Hurricane Katrina, posted by OkieMan on Sep 1, 2005

Congrats, Oke.

After being away for a spell, you've posted THE thread with probably the largest variety of posters/responses in quite a while.

If I could do so, I'd award you the "Golden Scribe".  (It's a statuette of a well-endowed nude Latina, with feather in hand, reaching over a writer's shoulder to "dip his ink".)

... in response to Re: Hurricane Katrina, posted by doombug on Sep 3, 2005

Doombug,

You are too kind.  I guess it could be due to the fact that I am brilliant; but actually I think it is because this natural disaster has gotten everyone's attention.  At any rate, I like the nude latina statue idea.  Now, if I could just "blink", and she would come to life and molest my body! ha ha   Boy, do I need a real life "in the flesh" hot, gorgeous, sexy (make that oversexed) latina-- who is in love with only me!  Now, that shouldn't be too hard? ha
Oh well, I can dream can't I?

                             OkieMan

... in response to Hurricane Katrina, posted by OkieMan on Sep 1, 2005

The message being sent worldwide is that we cannot take care of our own domestic crisis since we're too busy sticking our nose into everyone else's affairs... I deal with people internationally every day... To a person, every farang that I've spoken with this week has mirrored that sentiment, regardless of nationality...

It is truly a sad state of affairs and a national disgrace that it has taken this long to get relief to some of these people... The national guard should have been on site, in force within the first 24 - 48 hours... Not 5 days later once anarchy had ensued...

... in response to The message..., posted by wizard on Sep 2, 2005

Wizard,

I agree that there is much room for improvement concerning the Federal and State responses to this disaster.  Right now, the President is about to speak on TV.

                                OkieMan

... in response to Hurricane Katrina, posted by OkieMan on Sep 1, 2005

What a bunch of crybaby idiots! I’m ashamed to be an American while the world is watching these stupid looters acting like wild animals escaped from the zoo. Have these people in New Orleans no shame? Where are the police? Why aren’t they shooting those bozos carrying out TV’s, guns, jewelry, sneakers, 15 pair of new Levi’s, liquor, etc… And don’t tell me they are going to eat that stuff! I can’t condemn those who were hungry and took food or water, but the greedy bastards who were stealing everything they could get their hands on are like rabid dogs and should be shot on the spot.

Where are the men in that city? Why are they stealing, raping, and looting instead of showing a little leadership themselves? Can’t those people do ANYTHING for themselves without blaming the president for not being there in the morning with their breakfast? Where is the city’s disaster plan? Didn’t ANYONE ever think that the city might flood? Why don’t the cops have boats available for emergencies when their city is below sea level? Why isn’t the mayor showing some leadership instead of blaming the president for all his problems?

And who the hell are these idiots shooting at the rescue helicopters? Are these people totally insane? I’m sorry, but I don’t remember folks shooting at the rescuers in Florida and New York during their disasters. How do you help people when you are being shot at?

Why did so many people refuse to evacuate the city when ordered to do so? Why are they sitting there starving instead of walking out? Didn’t they at least have the brains to fill some bottles with water before the storm hit? Where are their emergency rations?

My heart goes out to the weak, the sick, the elderly, and the children. But I am just disgusted with the whining adults who want to blame the government for EVERYTHING while they sit on their asses. Don’t people ever take any responsibility for their own actions anymore?

Ray

... in response to Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Ray on Sep 2, 2005

"Why are they sitting there starving instead of walking out?"

An image yesterday shows a morbidly obese woman standing along the riverbank pouring water into a what looked like a "Hungry Man" meal.  In the water, floating by, is a corpse, and tubby didn't seem the least bit rattled.  

It's a community of "Me First's" and "Blame Them's".  She has every reason in the world not to feel a sense of self-guilt or shame.

... in response to Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Ray on Sep 2, 2005

Blame and pointing fingers is a waste of effort at this point. Right now we need to be taking care of our fellow citizens, providing housing and food and water, reuniting families, We need to be looking to the future to provide jobs, housing etc for our  brothers and sisters in dire need. Please donate something, anything will help!!!

When this is over and people are being taken care of, we can start pointing fingers and blaming those responsible. I for one am ashamed that we could not do more for the people affected by the hurricane.

... in response to Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Ray on Sep 2, 2005

[This message has been edited by Hoda]

let's just focus on "helping" people now. BTW the Mayor of N.O. didn't hold Bush responsible, he thanked the Pres for sending Lt.General Honorey...a real get s**t done or I'll break my foot off in your ass kinda leader. Gen Hororey is one of Louisana'a own...

Gotta love the way he "ordered" everyone with a gun to "point that gat dayyum gun down" & "shoulder that weapon soldier". We're here to help these folks. Wish he could of been there 96 hours ago!

... in response to Enough Blame to go around...., posted by Hoda on Sep 3, 2005

I wasn't going to respond to this thread until the screaming liberals started spouting their nonsense again.

Blame Bush...
Blame Bush...
Blame Bush...

Now suddenly I'm a racist according to one of our fellow posters...ROTFLMGDAO!

Peace,

Ray

... in response to Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Ray on Sep 2, 2005

Dude, you might want to think about the gravity of the situation.  Those looting would be stealing with or without the effects of the hurricane.  You also need to remember that even the junkies are out there homeless and they are probably the major ones out looting, trying to break into hospitals to their hands on drugs. Those are the ones that are most likley shooting.

Some people couldnt' leave as they didn't have a means, plain and simple. Do you question those that didn't leave Florida year after year, storm after storm? Do you questions those in Alabama or Mississippi?  They are complaining and looting as well.  

Quite frankly,  If you have not lived there, been through a hurricane in New Orleans (Like I have), Lost your home (like I Have) been to a shelter(like I have), then quite frankly you don't know and you probably should keep your comments to yourself.  I don't condone the bad actions there. I do find it more important to focus on the good people that are just there and suffering. I'm sorry, but your comments sound really bad and boderline idiot and racist.

As for the mayor, he power has been overuled and or taken away.  I'm trying to find out why, but if you notice he has not been on Televisions since about Monday.  If you visit CNN, you will find some recordings of his statement to the local television stations.  He is extremely passionate about his city and very upset that his powers and suggestions have been ignored.

Why don't they walk out?  Dude the water levels are as high as 10 feet in some areas.  Even when they can walk, where do you suggest they walk to?

Didn't they fill up bottles?  Dude, its been 3,4,5 days. Not to mention if you asked to evacuate your home, you can only take so much.

There are boats, there is a disaster plan. It wasn't very well excuted and that falls on the shoulders of local and state government. Shame on them and they need so shoulder that blame.  The failure of FEMA and others can't be explained away. Plain and simple, the government F*%ked up and big time.

Where are the men?  Dude, to be honest I don't know why I'm responding to some of your BS.  Again, let me explian to you something and hopefully you understand. It is above 90 degrees, immense humidity, NO WATER, NO FOOD, VERY LITTLE SLEEP. THE MEN ARE TRYING TO BE STRONG JUST LIKE THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN.  Try this experiment. ON Tuesday when you are driving to work, turn your heat on in your car and get the temperature up to about 90-95 degress in your car.  Imagine that feeling for 3,4,5,6 days and little or no water or food.  

As for the president and that jack ass Michael Brown, head of FEMA, they are full of shit.  They are all talking about how they didn't know this could happen.  New Orleans is the FEMA model for the ultimate national disaster.  
Ask yourself this, how quickly does Bush get to other national disasters? does he just fly over 4 days later or do his feet hit the ground immediately after the event?

The really intersting thing is most people out there think this thing is only about poverty and or race.  Guess what? It is But just as important, this shows just how inadequate our country is being run from the local, state and especially federal levels. Hell, if you live anywhere a national disaster(earthquake, flood, tornado)can occur, you are a hillbilly's heartbeat away from the same situation.  The response would probably be faster but you too would see just how poorly things are oranized here. Hell, Even Bush has admitted that things have not gone well.  No one wants to speak about why the national guard has no presence.  35% percent of the national guard in Louisiana is in Iraq, and the numbers are the similar for Mississippi and Alabama. DC says we have enugh soldiers to cover national disasters, but the logistics are a different issue. Sure we have the numbers, but they are not accessible. Even today there are only 12-13,000 troops in New Orleans. Before Iraq, the national guard was present helping prepare for the arrival of a hurricane and now, its takes 4,5,6 days after the hurricane for them to arrive.  My suggestions that each of take a hard look at how we make selections for officials. We need to elect smart and good people not just vote party platforms.

Peace and if I have offended you.  Im sure you will get over it. I'm tired of reading BS post for people that have nothing but hair and air between there ears.

... in response to Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Onephd on Sep 3, 2005

[This message has been edited by doombug]

"Why don't they walk out? Dude the water levels are as high as 10 feet in some areas. Even when they can walk, where do you suggest they walk to?"

Um, that'd also apply to potential rescuers (FEMA, the National Guard, etc.) walking or driving in, wouldn't ya think?

You'll reason out of that one, I'm sure.

Anyone who defends the corrupt mayor of New Orleans will of course label everyone else inept and/or racist.

Including the thousands of behind-the-scenes businesses, and millions of individuals, who'll eventually end up donating vast sums of money, resources, time, and effort in the reconstruction effort.

He must have been such an icon of foresight and morality during his reign.  No matter, he'll continue running around whining and blaming and exagerrating, while everyone else repairs what he ultimately had a great responsibility to protect.

[Edit:  Check this out.  Here's an example of the proactive mayor's work:  

http://billhobbs.com/hobbsonline/007188.html.  

Maybe such images are behind his new in-hiding ritual]

... in response to Re: Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by doombug on Sep 3, 2005

Doombug,

Please be fair.  The military, the President and the other emergency aid groups (Salvation Army, Red Cross, etc)
are all actually supposed to "walk on water", or "leap tall buildings in a single bound"!  What's a little water to superheroes?  The truth is that this disaster is soooo big, and covers so much area, and there are sooo many people that were not supposed to still be in the area; it is just unprecedented-- so no, they were not adequately prepared.  By the way, as sad as all of this is,(and yes I understand that some of those people are old and infirmed); I  believe that there were many of those people who just decided to stay, for one reason or the other.  Had they really listened to the authorities and evacuated, they would not be in the position they have been in.  I do not want to appear insensitive; but the numbers have been just too large, and after all, there was plenty of advanced warnings for those people to "haul buns" and get out of New Orleans. Remember, the levies did not immediately break after the worst of the storm hit. So, by then the people were defintely supposed to be long gone-- but they weren't. Besides, I am told this type of storm and flooding is one of those "every 300-500 years  type events.  Now, in truth, who can really prepare for that?  Having said that, naturally there is always room for improvement.  We are only human, and humans have limited power and intelligence.  Only God Himself can know all things and do all things.  The rest of us have to just do the best we can.  Even with that, I hope that we can all learn something about this type of thing--- like quit building cities in a floodplain; or worse yet, a fishbowl!  How smart is that?  That Mississippi Delta area has been used and abused too long.  Now, that is indeed something we can correct.

                              OkieMan

... in response to Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Onephd on Sep 3, 2005

So now I’m a racist? You and your retarded friends that are trying to make a political and racial issue out of this disaster are just demonstrating what screwed up fools you really are.

Did I mention anything about race bozo? NO, YOU DID! Looting and raping and shooting at hospital workers, firefighters, and rescue helicopters is not a “racial problem”. It’s a CHARACTER PROBLEM you stupid idiot!

Now why don’t you drop this stupid "racist" nonsense and pull your little head out of your ass? People like you only make things worse by spouting your liberal rhetoric and calling everyone a racist.

Ray

... in response to Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Ray on Sep 2, 2005

Ray,

As always you are right on.  I have a friend here in North Carolina that is from NO.  He told me that the city has always been corrupt and totally inept from the Mayor to the Police.  I do feel sorry for the elderly and the children.

Keith

... in response to Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Ray on Sep 2, 2005

Hopefully we will get answers over time. Does anyone think that the "terrorists" are watching ? Will we learn from this ? Sometimes s**t happens for a reason.

... in response to Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Ray on Sep 2, 2005

Ok, Trussgrimm ;)

... in response to Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Ray on Sep 2, 2005

AGAIN I WILL SAY

OUR COUNTRY IS BEAING LED BY A TOTAL PRESIDENT THAT IS THE MOST IMCOMNATENT BASTARD IN MODERN HISTORY. HE COULD NOT LEAD A YOU OUT OF A MENSTURAL CYCLE!!!!!!!!

... in response to Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Kiltboy1 on Sep 2, 2005

Hey dip shit!  What has the Mayor done or the Governor?  Not a damn thing but blame Bush.  If I am not mistaken this is the city of New Orleans and the state of Louisiana.  Do they not bare any responsibility here?  What about the folks shooting at the Helicoptors that are trying to rescue people?  I am sure in your pathetic eyes they are somehow justified because they have been disrespected in some way.  

Wake up these people were warned to get the hell out of there.  Granted some people do not have the means and that is sad but it doesn't mean that Bush is to be blamed for everything under the sun.

I have given money to my church and donated water which will be sent to the affected areas.  What have you done to help these people but bitch and cry about Bush.  Quit your whining and do something useful.

Keith

... in response to Re: Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Keith NC on Sep 3, 2005

"Granted some people do not have the means..."

No, many if not most had the means, it's just the media and the activists preying on this callous Bush approach.

The "Honorable" Mayor Nagin left his bus fleets to ground in the first few days (and now they're water-logged and useless); also, notice how many submerged automobiles you see in many images captured during the early days of flooding.  

People stayed or weren't driven out.  The lame and elderly that were left stranded are in a worse situation precisely because of the mayor's ineptitude.

But, overall, it's more clean and appealing to simply brush the whole mess as the fault of the President.  Even if the mayor or governor themselves came out and admitted partial responsibility, these critics would still be calling for the impeachment of the Pres.

Blind critics are entertaining to watch.  Their heads pop out wherever there's a tragedy.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by doombug on Sep 3, 2005

Doombug,

Excellent point about the buses and the cars.  If there were cars there, then someone owned the cars.  Those "someones" chose not to drive the stupid cars out of the danger area.  For the ones who do not own cars, then I can better understand their problems.  But, again, before the "poop hit the fan", there should have been a better job of a "forceable" evacuation.  It's just not good PR to forceably evacuate people; but now, I bet they wish they had.  That is certainly something that the State and local governments should have seen to-- and that is not Bush's fault!  Hopefully, all of these procedures will be effectively evaluated and improved.  Still, hindsight is always 20/20.

                              OkieMan

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by doombug on Sep 3, 2005

It is everybodies fault but none want to accept blame. The Domino effect started at the bottom but the top officials should of forced the issue more.

first the mayor is a real joke. All forms of transportation should of been used to get everybody out. Letting prisoners loose on the streets compounded the crime.

Second the Governor of Louisiana should of communicated better with the mayor to make sure the people were going to be evacuated that needed help.

Third FEMA is a total joke run by a director who's background is real estate. Bush hired him. Why has Bush hired so many a$$ kissing inept staff? They never accept responsibility for their failures. FEMA practiced this exact scenario last year and many people know this and the story is getting out. This one isn't going to get swept under the rug this time.

Wednesday Bush said he never expected this to be so bad. What is he on Coke again the Army Core themselves said the levee would break before the storm hit and they themselves said everybody should of been evacuated last week now this week we didn't expect it to be so bad is the response.

Now Mr Chimp has stated it won't hurt the economy hell we are on the verge of financial ruins. Every year we are closer to a financial breakdown from to much government debt. The debt stands at $145,000 for every American including SS.

It is early September this storm is a 100 billion plus in cost. Oil and natural gas are going through the roof people will cut back while rebuilding goes on. If Greenspan plays his all is fine attitude and raises interest rates and craters the real estate bubble we may be begging to become Mail Order Husbands. Like I said early September is there another bad mother of a storm to put the last nail in our coffin. What if a class five grazes Miami?

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by stefang on Sep 3, 2005

"Letting prisoners loose on the streets compounded the crime."

I think that's called the "Sadam Approach" to garnering public support when you're politically weak.

"The debt stands at $145,000 for every American including SS."

Yep, read this one with a laugh.  FUTURE outlays as current debt is sort of the impression the author was trying to foster.  Alarmist!!  Everyone's gotta be alarmist.  It sells, reaches the headlines, and wins the front page slots.

So, if I make $50,000 now, in twenty years I'll be $865,000 up (after those "debt" reductions), right?  So, technically, I can go splurge right now!!  Woohoo!!!  Booyah!!!  Goin' shopping; I'm goin' shopping--right NOW!!!  Big screen TV; and an I-Pod; and a new 'Stang GT--HERE I COME!!  I'm going shoppin'.  

I'll give a little to charity, too.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Blame, blame, blame...., posted by doombug on Sep 3, 2005

That's right what was I thinking the Government can print as much money as they want, China and Japan promise to continue to support our spending binge for eternity.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Blame, blame, bl..., posted by stefang on Sep 3, 2005

"China and Japan promise to continue to support our spending binge for eternity."

A binge that keeps both of their boats afloat.  

I have a Sony CD radio, Sony 42" LCD television, Sony DVD player, Sony digital camera, Sony VAIO computer, music marketed by Sony's music division.  I've got one of Japan's cars, too--a Mazda Protege.  And buying landfill-quality goods "Made-in-China" is an unavoidable consequence of modern shopping.

I'm one person who generously helped support the Japanese and Chinese economies by purchasing their goods.  

We are their largest export market.  Remove us from the equation, and both of those nations will instantly slip into recession.

No doubt.

All of those media stories meant to make folks feel guilty about being a Yank.  Pretty damn effective.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Blame, blame..., posted by doombug on Sep 3, 2005

So you are relying on foreigners to continue to support your standard of living?  We have the lowest savings rate of developed countries. We will have to pay the piper sooner or later. How it is done through asset sales to foreigners or stagflation to wipe out debt, future generations will have to pay for it.

Japan will start calling in those IOUs they too have a retiring boomer generation and have saved unlike us.  What do we sell as assets to them to cover this bill?

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Blame, b..., posted by stefang on Sep 3, 2005

Got your handy check-list of oft-repeated reasons why the "American Empire" will collapse, eh?  Fortunately, there are a variety of resources that debunk much of this (or offer fairer assessments), so not everyone is beholden to believe you doomsayers (or "doom relayers," since all of your criticisms thus far have already made numerous rounds in print).  

The U.S. savings rate is low partly because Americans have investments that aren't considered by the Commerce Department.  The most significant of these being a home, but pensions and capital gains are also excluded.  The home ownership rate in the U.S. is among the highest in the world--with only Australia and handfull of Euro countries exceeding ours.  Stock portfolio values grow, workers contribute to pension plans, and people buy homes--yet none of these count as "savings"?  Reminds me of how much faith was put into the government's Food Pyramid prior to  it becoming viewed as too antiquated and simplified.  By the way, other countries with high rates of home ownership AND extremely low savings rates are Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Finland, and Sweden.  I suppose they are consumers equally as wreckless as we are.  Or, maybe they have just as few hang-ups about this "sacred" savings rate.

A couple of interesting reads on savings-rate hype:

http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_canto/canto200412100922.asp

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/02_20/b3783078.htm

A more realistic (and optimistic) view of trends in the U.S. can be found in a book put out by the Cato Institute--"It's Getting Better All the Time: 100 Greatest Trends of the Last 100 Years"--by Stephen Moore and Julian L. Simon.  In a chapter titled, "The Wealthiest Society," they note: "Although we hear complaints about American indebtedness, asset values have risen at a much faster rate than has debt."  I suspect most Americans (including researchers like those above) have a little more faith in how they manage their own personal finances than the pessimists who follow credit-card balance and savings-rate trends.    

The IMF summarized as much:  

"The low U.S. household saving rate is, to a large extent, explained by the significant gains in income and wealth achieved over the past decade. Nonetheless, household spending may eventually have to slow somewhat to
close the apparent gap between the personal saving rate and
underlying fundamentals, and there is also the question of
whether the strong trend increase in private indebtedness
can be sustained in a less supportive interest rate environment.  However, the balance sheet of the U.S. household sector still looks robust, partly as a result of the equity market upswing since mid-2003, and households appear to have used mortgage refinancing in part to insulate themselves from possible interest rate increases. Finally, although household exposure to the real estate market has grown, and there are signs of possible overheating in major urban markets, aggregate housing prices do not appear so far out of line with macroeconomic fundamentals that an orderly return to equilibrium cannot be achieved."

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2004/03/pdf/faulkner.pdf

Not everyone subscribes to your grim view.  

Unless you're from Europe.  Then you have every reason to wanna make the  barbarians feel guilty about shit.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Blam..., posted by doombug on Sep 4, 2005

Holy smokes the IMF and balance sheets? You are buying this? Enron had an awesome balance sheet, until the real people who know balance sheets is where the fraud is committed busted their accounting scheme. You know Enron copied a lot of the US Governments accounting schemes. Enron might not of even folded right away if 9/11 didn't happen but they were caught and when they could no longer recieve capital the writing was on the wall. The difference between Enron and the Government is the Feds print money to bail themselves out but this only works as long as they can control the IMF and keep the masses believing that the dollar has value. Cash flow statements is where a company or country shows its strengths and the US has been bleeding red for decades.

Again why do you trust your economic means to foreigners and poor government accounting? Think of it this way, you make a $1000 a week but you want a better life so Mr Fuji from Japan decides he will give you another $200 a week to support a better life and then you can buy his products from him. All you have to do is pay interest no problem at first since the loan is small but it is compounding and increasing every week. Soon your $1000 paycheck has to pay $200 to Mr Fuji for interest so now your standard of living is going down  but Mr Fuji is a nice man and he has decided to increase the loan to you for $400 a week so your standard stays high. The moral of the story the US spends 20% of tax revenues just for interest payments. So $1 of every $5 of our tax revenue is sent away as interest just imagine what could of been accomplished with this? The older generations have enjoyed this extra money I call it a party at the expense of future generations and poeple have the nerve today to say they want the best for their children when they continue to enslave them into a future mound of debt.
http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/englund/2005/0124.html

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ..., posted by stefang on Sep 4, 2005

[This message has been edited by doombug]

Still focusing on highlights from the six o'clock news?   Now it's Enron; really OLD news.  One business out of millions in the U.S., but the temptation to harp on the same tired anomaly couldn't be passed up, eh?  

Do you ever read?  Maybe, branch out a little; get a variety of opinions.  Just because someone (a quack website?) told you outlays for interest on the debt was 20% doesn't mean the TRUE number's not actually around 6.7% to 8% (by a variety of estimates).  I hope this correction doesn't ruin your gloomy aspirations.

[The low-ball 6.7% figure is here:  http://www.truthandpolitics.org/2004-outlays-summary.php]  

Got some more scary numbers and headlines?

Here are some realistic data.  The actual interest on the debt for the past ten years:

2004   $321,566,323,971.29    
2003   $318,148,529,151.51    
2002   $332,536,958,599.42    
2001   $359,507,635,242.41    
2000   $361,997,734,302.36    
1999   $353,511,471,722.87    
1998   $363,823,722,920.26    
1997   $355,795,834,214.66    
1996   $343,955,076,695.15    
1995   $332,413,555,030.62  

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdint.htm
 
Those numbers appear to be spiraling out of control.  Or maybe they've leveled off.  Or, maybe it's all "fancy Enron bookkeeping."  They're big numbers alright; but relative to the size of the economy, quite manageable.  In fact, the percentage is historically low.

How about a cute chart that reveals how relatively tame our debt is as compared to other "exemplars of financial prudence":

http://www.optimist123.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/debt_burden_history_20050204_1.gif

And even more detailed:

http://www.optimist123.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/oecd_excel_screenshot_2905.gif

It's been quite a few banner years for debt accumulation in Japan.  But they are a thrifty lot, right?  Saving more is the answer, right?  Buy less goods from abroad, right?  Greenspan will be retiring soon; so, fax in that resume.

This, from your link:  "The lower the credit rating, it is believed, the higher the chances are for a country to default on its sovereign debt obligations."  Since the U.S. hasn't defaulted on its debt, there's no need to harp and whine about why its bond rating is so high.  Default is a pretty big determinant on rating, as anyone with a simple credit card could attest.  The editorial goes on further to nitpick and compare "expanded tax base" with "personal income growth".  More people in the work force affect changes in personal income, but they are not one and the same.

This Dr. Kurt Richebächer is one of the "doom profiteers" who I'd written about in my prior post.  Even his site, "The Daily Reckoning," should have tipped you off to this.  For TRUE personal income growth data, check the TRUE source:

http://www.bea.doc.gov/bea/newsrel/SPINewsRelease.htm

You seem to think that debt and investment is a one-way street, as if the U.S. (businesses and individuals) doesn't invest abroad, while others are immune to debt accumulation.  So, here's another cute graph that reflects U.S. investments abroad along with foreign investments in the U.S.  It's neck and neck, with both streams increasing, and roughly $10 trillion either way.  This reflects a healthy global economy, wouldn't ya think?  Looks like much of the rest of the world is gaining ground (though you'd surmise that we're losing ground):

http://www.bea.doc.gov/bea/newsrel/iip_glance.htm  

By the way, the U.K.--not China, not Japan--hold the greatest direct investment in the U.S.  In fact, China's direct investment is essentially nil, as it's not even reflected in the data.

http://www.bea.gov/bea/di/fdicap/fdicap-04.htm

Here's an enlightened blog exchange about the U.S. savings rate:

"Henry [pretend you're Henry] worries about our low savings rate where another reader takes a more upbeat view.

'I believe that if you count "forced" savings through home purchases as well as the value of 401ks, the US savings rate is in line with or higher than Europe's'

"This comment points to several problems of definition, measurement, and comparability with the "national savings" statistic. Even if we can properly define what it should include and find accurate data on each of its components, international comparisons of savings rates are fraught with danger since countries are just so different. The American dream includes home ownership in a way that the Italian dream simply does not. With the US home ownership rate at an all-time high of 69.2% in Q4 2004 and home equity accounting for 32% of average US household net worth, any meaningful assessment of the financial resources of US households must include home equity.

"I have an even more basic problem with the national savings rate. What exactly is it supposed to measure and why should we care about this number? Journalists like to write about the "low" US savings rate in moralistic tones that make us out to be a nation of spendthrifts who don't sock enough money away for a rainy day. But the issue of how much savings is enough is very different in a macroeconomic setting than in the context of a family budget."

http://www.shiningright.com/shiningright/2005/03/us_rich_country.html

Good luck with your agenda.

On a final note, Bush did it.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ..., posted by doombug on Sep 4, 2005

Doombug,

You seem to be very knowledgeable concerning statistics.  Is that your profession or hobby?  Just curious.  Most of us have just a passing knowledge of these types of figures.  Either you do a lot of research, or this is your field of expertise.  I am just curious.  I don't claim any expertise in this field, but naturally I have my opinions.  I am certainly not anti-business (since I am a conservative Republican), but as most people in the country, I am appalled at corporate greed.  Thanks for your comments.

                         OkieMan

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ..., posted by OkieMan on Sep 4, 2005

It's a crime, but I admit to having just a little more faith in the country than the America bashers.  Still, I can't help wondering what keeps the ungrateful from leaving.  I'd swap a new immigrant for a whining American in a second--if I had such power.  Couldn't Canada have made themselves just a little more appealing during the last election?  All of those promises to leave, and barely a turnstile spun.  

With regards to corporate greed in the U.S.--WAY overblown.  Nonetheless, hard-headed types think every American corporation is an Enron in waiting.  

Transparancey International does an annual survey on  corruption in 146 countries.  The U.S. consistently ranks high on the list (meaning, foreign travelers, residents, businessmen believe there's not much corruption).  This past year, we tied for 17th, with a score of 7.5 (out of a possible 10).  The conspiracy theorists might have guessed we'd rank somewhere near the bottom.  Finland was tops, with a 9.7; and the best LA showing was 20th-place Chile--ranked right below the U.S.--with a score of 7.4.  Colombia was 60th; Mexico 64th; and Haiti, dead last.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ..., posted by doombug on Sep 4, 2005

[This message has been edited by stefang]

When it comes to economics there are many views, people will continue to disagree. To call someone a basher because he has another view seems to be a problem lately. Thomas Jefferson would be seen as a traitor today for challenging the status quo. Both political parties are a joke bleeding Americans dry. Liberals blame everybody and Republicans can't ever accept any blame.

You are living on faith that everything is going to be okay. Greenspan feels the same way in his old age he feels this time is different and the mathematics of debt and deficits don't matter. Greenspan even said the bubble market of 2000 was different because of rising productivity. Buffett has challenged him with half of BRK wealth switched to foreign currencies. Hopefully Buffett is wrong but he follows mathematics and to him the numbers don't add up. Greenspan follows economics thinking numbers can be bent.

As for other countries GDP to debt. I am talking about our country the one we should be protecting. Relying on foreigners to remain strong to keep us strong is what many including Buffett and Gross say is wrong. Japan bailed us out over a decade ago and they took the brunt of the pain to keep exports growing they may not do the same next time.
As our debt and balance of foreign payments grow it will be harder in the future to handle a shock like Katrina. This is what my original post was about. Another Katrina hits Miami or a 9.0 hits LA and we may not be able to pay for these things. Social Security which is not as bad as Medicare is going to be growing very large in the near future. Today the government has the advantage of raiding the surplus every year but around 2012-17 it will flip over to them adding to a deficit in SS. That is money that has been kept off the books since the Feds don't practice GAAP principles.

Best case scenario. Greenspan is right foreigners continue to see US as safe and don't pull out their money. China India Brazil continue to grow and eventually buy goods from America. America in 30 or 40 years steps aside and lets China take the lead. We go into the golden sunset like Britain and relinquish our dynasty.

Canada has a strong future as long as global demand continues. Oil Sands make it one of the richest countries in the world. They hold a vast supply of water nickle coal etc.. Many students from other countries are deciding to study in Canada and England because of the new immigration laws are pushing the brightest away from our country. My parents were Canadian and I have been thinking about getting a dual citizenship. The difference between the two countries is not much except in the US you can make more money. Canada has higher taxes but with services and the housing is much cheaper. Overall a good paying job in America with good benefits is better than the Canadian counterpart but for the poorer citizens Canada takes better care of them. A lot of American companies set up operations in Canada because the national medical plan is cheaper in taxes than offering insurance plans here.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ..., posted by OkieMan on Sep 4, 2005

An economist? Why, he's a fellow who has been to school and studied money and all those things. And his guess is ALMOST as good as yours.

Credit: Will Rogers

... in response to What's and economist?, posted by Michael B on Sep 4, 2005

[This message has been edited by doombug]

A pharmacist?  Why, he's been comparing drug prices between Mexico and the U.S. since grad. school.  And his final analysis was SUPPOSED to be indisputable.

Credit: Me

Y'all think you can just throw something out there and nobody will challenge it.  

That only works with children.

... in response to Re: What's and economist?, posted by doombug on Sep 4, 2005

[This message has been edited by Michael B]

You have confussed me. Since you've used the word 'challenge', you must be challenging something, but it isn't clear what. Are you challenging that Will Rogers actually said what I attributed to him? Or are you challenging the price of drugs in Mexico? Or do you really have a degree in ecconomics and take umbrage with what Mr. Rogers said?

... in response to Re: Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Keith NC on Sep 3, 2005

No War policy
No foreign Policy( Except to piss off everybody we can)
No Energy policy
No domestic healthcare policy
No Tax Reform policy

The only Dip shits around here are YOU AND BUSH

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Kiltboy1 on Sep 3, 2005

War Policy =  Kill all terrorist and others that want to kill us.  

Foreign Policy =  Who cares if the French don't like us.  We saved their assess twice and what do we get for it.  Not even a thank you.

Energy Policy =  Just passed.

Domestic Healthcare Policy =  We have the best healthcare system in the world.  Why do so many in foreign countries want to come here for their medical care.

Tax Reform Policy =  I will admit that I want Bush to do alot more.  1. Get rid of Death Taxes.  2. Get rid of Capital Gains Taxes.  3.  I would like to see Income Taxes eliminated and instead have the Fair Tax.  That way eveyone pays their fair share.  Including those that are living off my tax dollars paying for their out of wedlock kids.  

Liberal Policy for everything = Complain, obstruct, whine.  Did I mention blame Bush for everything but offer no solutions themselves.

You liberals are so predictible.  You haven't had a new playbook since the sixties.  Maybe that is why you keep getting your assess kicked in election after election since 1994.  Unless you come up with some solutions or new ideas you will continue to get bitch slapped at the polls every time.  People don't gravitate to losers who complain all the time.  People like a winners.  Are the Republicans perfect.  Not at all. But they are better than the other option.  

Have a nice freakin day,

Keith

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Kiltboy1 on Sep 3, 2005

Spoken like a true liberal. You know what a true liberal is? That's a person who alone does nothing ... but as a group decide nothing should be done! Give it a rest Kiltboy, who cares what you think about Bush.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Craig on Sep 3, 2005

Craig

I agree we should do something

IMPEACH BUSH AND BRING IN MCAIN !!!!!

NOT LIBREAL, JUST TIRED OF INCOMPATANCE FROM BUSH, BUT I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST LIBERALS EITHER .

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Craig on Sep 3, 2005

Craig

I agree we should do something

IMPEACH BUSH AND BRING IN MCAIN !!!!!

NOT LIBREAL, JUST TIRED OF INCOMPATANCE FROM BUSH, BUT I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST LIBERALS EITHER .

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Craig on Sep 3, 2005

Craig

I agree we should do something

IMPEACH BUSH AND BRING IN MCAIN !!!!!

NOT LIBREAL, JUST TIRED OF INCOMPATANCE FROM BUSH, BUT I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST LIBERALS EITHER .

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Blame, blame, blame...., posted by Kiltboy1 on Sep 3, 2005

I didn't know McCain was next in the line of succession if Bush were to be impeached. Maybe you should read the constitution… LOL!

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Blame, blame, blame...., posted by Kiltboy1 on Sep 3, 2005

I think the word is "incompetence"  and the Senator is "McCain".   Now can we get back to what this board is all about... finding that special latina...

... in response to Re: Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Keith NC on Sep 3, 2005

Keith NC,

You are right.  Everyone wants to lay every problem, every natural disaster, etc at the feet of Bush.  Every President seems to catch the heat for one thing or the other.  But, I have never seen any other President in my lifetime being blamed for everything under the sun like Bush.  First, we got hit by terrorist on 9/11.  That's supposed to be Bush's fault, even though he had been in office just a few months (at that time).  Remember, Osama bin Laden had been arrested by some country in Africa (I can't remember which country) back in the '90s.  They called Clinton to see what he wanted to do, and bin Laden was released!  But, the Democrats don't want to blame Clinton for anything.  I guess to them it was ok for him to boink all the White House interns.  If Bush passes gas, the Democrats want to blame him for air pollution.  Keep in mind, no one is perfect.  But, what happened to people being accountable for their own actions?  It's more politically correct for everyone to be a "victim".  After all, it's common for the lawyers to try that when a known criminal is being tried for a crime.  But, "society" made him do it!  What a crock!!!  My heart goes out to the true victims of this tragedy.  But, I guarantee you, some of those people just simply did not want to leave their homes.  They thought they could ride it out.  Well, when everything goes wrong-- it's time to blame Bush again!!
Hog wash!!

                                   OkieMan

P.S.  Oklahoma will be housing some of these refugees.  I wish I could do more to help.  Our church and many others are pitching in to help.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by OkieMan on Sep 3, 2005

Okieman,

I think the country that Osama was in was Sudan.  You are right they let him go to Afghanistan.  There were all kinds of terrorist acts committeed against America in the Nineties and not a damn thing was done about it.  Oh yeah, a pharmacuetical factory was bombed I think.  

I used to live on the coast of North Carolina and I can tell you that when a Hurricane was coming we got the hell out of there.  It didn't matter if it was a category 1,2,3,4 or 5.  I wasn't going to take that risk.  But we did have those folks that were going to ride it out.  They stayed knowing that they could be killed.

Basically what we have alot of in our society these days, is that no one wants to take responsibility for themselves.  They want to blame everyone else but themselves for the choices they make.  Life is about choices good or bad.  But we have to be willing to take responsibility for the choices that we do make.  In a liberals viewpoint no one is responsible for anything.  Unless of course you are a conservative then you're responsible for all of the Evil in the world.  

Keith

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Keith NC on Sep 4, 2005

Keith,

Yeah, I hear you.  According to the liberal mentality, everyone is or could be a "victim".  In their way of thinking, there is no accountability. Changing the subject, but one of my sisters took a vacation in your fair state, this summer.  She said it was beautiful at Cape Hatteris (?)  I believe that is where she went. Take care.

                       OkieMan

... in response to Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Kiltboy1 on Sep 2, 2005

Hey dumb ass do you think people should be responsible for the selfs?  Why did this not happen in Miami?

Or is it the people of Louisianan?

... in response to Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Kiltboy1 on Sep 2, 2005

I have never like Bush and now he has really showed what he really is worth.
Where was he until Wednesday? Wednesday night he was on T.V. he stated that
he ordered Air force one to fly over the gulf coast so he could see the damage.
He could not see anything in several area because of the clouds I think he said.
Now can anyone tell me what a Jet flying that high saw anything? I am sorrry but
this guy is a big boob.... Today is Friday he finally went into several areas to see
what really happened. What day did this happen? Monday I think...

... in response to Re: Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Fuzzyone on Sep 3, 2005

"He could not see anything in several area because of the clouds I think he said."

Strange, I recall seeing photos taken FROM Air Force One, as the President was doing his LOW fly overs.  Specifically, an image of a collapsed bridge stands out, taken from a few thousand feet up.

Don't be tempted to lie or mistate things, now.  Next, you'll claim Bush was actually on a ferris wheel in Anaheim during Katrina's visit.

... in response to Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Kiltboy1 on Sep 2, 2005

Too much wine is right! ROFL!

... in response to Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Kiltboy1 on Sep 2, 2005

Sorry about the bad spelling, a little too much Vino

Perdonerme !

... in response to Re: Re: Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Kiltboy1 on Sep 2, 2005

Yeah!, Bush should have been standing on a levee holding back the storm surge with a water pail.

He's incompetent! He wasn't able to stop a hurricane!

It's just sad that some people merely view this catastrophe as a good opportunity to score political points off Bush.

... in response to Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Ray on Sep 2, 2005

I take it that you've never spent time in NOLA...

You obviously don't understand socio-economic makeup of the inhabitants... Rational behavior and cognitive thought are not a requirement for living there, they are actually a detriment...

... in response to Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Ray on Sep 2, 2005

Ray,

I share many of your feelings. Unfortunately, there is a massive movement to "blame Bush" for everything.  Believe me, even though this tragedy should not be politicized, it is.  Also, when you get that many people in one area who have been in poverty and crime for many generations; their mindset is not the same as the rest of us.  Having said that, it is still a terrible tragedy, and to some extend, I do believe the response time has not been up to our expectations.  But, remember, many of the National Guard units are deployed fighting for our freedom.  So, naturally, we are indeed stretched too thin.  I sincerely hope that some new assessments can be made to improve our response time in the future.  But, in my opinion, there should be some serious attention paid to how and where New Orleans is rebuild.  To build a city in a known marshy, swampy area below sea level; how crazy is that?  But, it all started about 300 hundred years ago.  Hey, let's blame the French!! That works for me! ha  No seriously, we have to do something and quickly.  The entire gulf area is too important.  We have our largest port in New Orleans, and many others close by.  I guess Mother Nature did what the terrorists couldn't!  Now, that's creepy!

   

                                 OkieMan

... in response to Blame, blame, blame..., posted by Ray on Sep 2, 2005

First, my heart breaks for the people suffering in NO and all the other areas affected by Katrina.

As I'm watching this on TV I'm having flashbacks to the LA riots of the 90's: people come to help you and you shoot at them? You live in a bowl below sea level, a hurricane is coming and you don't leave? You burn your city and blame others? I know it is a minority, (oops, I can't say that) a small percentage of the population doing these things, but why don't these people do something about their situation?  (That's a rhetoical question which I'll answer in a minute.) AND THE FIRST LINE OF RESPONSIBILITY IS WITH THE CITY OF NEW ORLEANS!!!!!!  Then the state, then Fed's.  And it's the State National Guard, so it has to be called out by the state Governor, not the President. There's a huge gato encerrado with the NO mayor, I'll lay money on that.

To answer my earlier question, the reason these people aren't helping themselves is because they depend on government handouts. THey have lost the ability to think for and take care of themselves.  When we go to a National Park, we're told not to feed the animals: why is the human animal any different? Se we're just seeing the results of government programs that never give people an incentive to get off those programs.

Anyway, it's great to hear the outpouring of donations and support from around the country and to hear of those who did all they could to help their families and others in this crisis time.

... in response to Well said, Ray!, posted by surfscum on Sep 2, 2005

Surfscum,

Those are excellent points.  If people live by the Government then they die by the Government.  I am true believer in self reliance.  I don't depend on the Government for anything if I have anything to do with it.  Alot of these people lost the ability to take care of themselves because like you said they were dependent on the Government.  I hope in the future the young people that survived will be more independent and rely more on their self preservation to survive in the future.

The Mayor down there is no Guliani for sure.  He has shown no leadership.  The only thing he has done is cry and whine about Bush.  Why even have a Mayor if it is the sole responsiblity of the President.  I have never seen so much incompetence in a city or state in my life.  

Keith

... in response to Re: Well said, Ray!, posted by Keith NC on Sep 3, 2005

[This message has been edited by stefang]

Guliani did not have his whole city wiped out. The New Orleans mayor is worthless in proving he did not try to get people out that wanted help. To compare the two is impossible, if a 9.0 earthquake hit New York and leveled the city Guliani would of been powerless. Having two buildings destroyed is nothing compared to a hurricane that just slammed a 400 by 200 mile area. 3500 people died because of what happened but it did not displace over a million people. Local Mayors and Governors don't have the resources to handle such a disaster on their own that is what FEMA a disgrace was made for. I want to edit here and point out that the continuing rise of the federal powers and weakening state powers has made it virtually impossible for states to handle their own disasters anymore. In the past states had more rights to run their own policies but today the Feds continue to take away state rights and state funding by draining taxpayers for Federal gain at states expense.

Bush is a failure as long as he allows the director of FEMA continue to collect a paycheck.

Mistakes where made from the beginning from the mayor who did not try to move the needy, to the state level in not being ready, to the last line the federal government always proving they are overpaid. Most of these looters are your typical criminals and it did not help that precincts released prisoners from jails instead of moving them farther north. After Walmart allowed people to get basic necessities news crews caught the local police who were supposed to suprvise the giveaway actually steal TVs and jewelry. How can you have peace in a city if the keepers of peace are commiting the same crimes.

Mississipi Governor asked Bush to recall his National Guard troops from Iraq for this upcoming hurricane before it hit but Bush told him there were plenty of troops to help from other states. Bush's own Republicans are seeing he failed but you can barely get a squeek from him because he is never willing to admit he has failed and this proves that he is no leader. Where are these other state troops and why weren't they ready to offer support? The truth is the government wasn't prepared again as usual even after most private industries were warning this could be the greatest disaster to date.

Why was Red Cross blocked from delivering food and water? They were turned back for the reason they could be in harms way. Every day people have no food or water, the chances increase they will have to become stronger predators increasing the chance of rioting and killing for basic necessities. If the Red Cross were allowed to help it would of showed how worthless FEMA has been to date.

... in response to Re: Re: Well said, Ray!, posted by stefang on Sep 3, 2005

Stefang,

I am not comparing the terroist attack on the WTC  with  Hurricane Katrina.  Both were terrible events.  Hurricane Katrina will be far worse when it is all said and done.  Although both regrettably happened.

I was talking about the leadership skills of the Mayor of NO and the former Mayor of NY City.  Regardless I never saw any leadership from the Mayor of NO taking charge of the situation on TV.  

Keith

... in response to Well said, Ray!, posted by surfscum on Sep 2, 2005

I just heard they found 80 people dead in a retirement home. Do you ever think that many of these people could not flee? Your right, the Mayor really messed up and seems to be showing it by blaming everybody but himself. When they have city buses under water not being used it shows incompetence.

I blame the whole government. You know why? They take roughly 5 months of wages in taxes from Americans and when such a tragedy was slowly unfolding the whole system failed from local all the way to federal. They need to see their wages and benefits cut across the board. So many resources were wasted that could of been used. We can't help victims until weeks later but we can invade another country on a days notice, seems to me I see where are taxes went.

Some of the oil companies already are getting back online. Seems businesses know what to do but our government is really sad for what we pay.

... in response to Hurricane Katrina, posted by OkieMan on Sep 1, 2005

Keesler AFB in Biloxi, MS.

Gone now.

... in response to Re: Hurricane Katrina, posted by doombug on Sep 2, 2005

Doombug,

When you said that Keesler AFB is gone now, are you referring the hurricane damage, or was it closed down before the storm?  Unfortunately, I have not been able to get any updated info on that; but I have noticed that the news media has never mentioned it during their coverage of the Biloxi and Gulfport damage.  So, it makes me think that it might have already been shut down.  At any rate, I have some happy memories of the time that I spent there.  It was a training base, and at the time I was stationed there, I met many good looking girls.  Needless to say, I was a much younger man then.  In fact, I turned 25 while I was there.  After that, I returned home for a short time, and then shipped out for RAF Lakenheath, England for 2 years.  Boy, that was some good times there too.

                                 OkieMan

... in response to Re: Re: Hurricane Katrina, posted by OkieMan on Sep 2, 2005

An earlier report I'd read made it seem as if the base was completely obliterated.  But, this isn't the case.  The base did appear to receive the worst punishment of those in the region, though:

"Military bases in the path of Hurricane Katrina and its resulting floodwaters were continuing to assess damage today while reaching out to affected servicemembers and their families to provide support.
Keesler Air Force Base, Miss., appears to have received the heaviest damage after taking a direct hit from the Category 4 hurricane."

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Aug2005/20050831_2580.html

... in response to Hurricane Katrina, posted by OkieMan on Sep 1, 2005

I guess if I were in a place for over 4 days without food, water, a place to sleep, corpses rotting, love-ones missing and sleeping in filthy places to name a few, I too would think the response time is damn slow.

It seems we are more worry about the looting than getting the help out to the people, the babies that are living on those conditions, the old. Hey, too bad for us eh? We have to deal with the gas price while others just lost every thing they had including their families. Look at the pictures. It looks like a third-world country for God’s sake.

Yes, I am disgusted and mad. I am mad at the time response given by authorities. I am mad at we being able to help other countries and we can’t help our own. I am mad at us being so selfish.

But I am going to do a little something to help. I am going to do just like Patrick did. I am going to go online and donate more money than I already did since it seems our government doesn’t have the resources to help its own people. Sorry. I am just very frustrated with all this. Please just get out your wallets and help.

... in response to Huh, posted by Georgina on Sep 2, 2005

These people need immediate assistance,much faster than money can be collected.Only the federal government is capabell of that.
Charity money will be usefull later,but is not the immediate solution needed now.

Pete

... in response to THe problem with charity , posted by Pete E on Sep 2, 2005

Donating money right now is the most effective way for us to help since obviously we can't all go over there. The American Red Cross uses this money right now to provide immediate assistance like shelter and food. Also, of course, people are more willing to provide monetary help when things just happened. A month from now every body will forget about the suffering of those people and it won’t be on TV anymore, but the need will still be there. That’s why is so important to encourage people to donate right now to provide that much needed long-term relieve right now.

... in response to Not so true, posted by Georgina on Sep 2, 2005

[This message has been edited by doombug]

The downside with relying strictly on the Red Cross and/or donations to other charities is that people and charities can't be pressured to stick it out for the long haul; you don't know for certain where your money will go; and administrative costs (and graft) eat up a big chunk of what you give.  On the other hand, the Feds will be pressured by the affected cities, states, and their respective citizens to aid with redevelopment for years to come.  

Recall the WTC attacks.  Here's how Red Cross donations were processed in some parts of the country by a few selfish (possibly even corrupt) chapters:  

"In the wake of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Towers, American citizens responded generously with over $1 Billion in donations received at over 1,000 local chapters of the American Red Cross. Donations intended for the victims and their families. According to documents obtained by CBS News, a dozen of the Red Cross chapters audited were making, or 'coding', donations as local funds. This means that chapters like San Diego, Southwest Florida, and Gateway Area, Iowa would keep the money instead of sending it in for Sept. 11 victims.  What’s more, the Savannah chapter 'could not provide information regarding cash (and) checks collected'. In the LosAngeles chapter there had been 'no accurate accounting for the funds received after Sept.11, believed then to total at least one half $1 million.'"

http://ngowatch.org/Mastrodonato.pdf

However, despite those exceptional cases, Red Cross holds an overall rating of "60.36" on a scale of "70".  Program expenses (your donations at work) hover around 91% of utilization, and administrative costs are 5% of utilization.  The charity has earned the trust of most people/organizations, and is an excellent benchmark by which to judge other charities.

Still, I'd be extremely careful with donations in general.  Make for certain no one will skim off excessive amounts beyond what is "normal" prior to such funds reaching their intended need.  To find out what is normal, and to see what charities are legit., check out this site:

http://www.charitynavigator.org/

... in response to Hurricane Katrina, posted by OkieMan on Sep 1, 2005

I hope everyone will pitch in and help out with a donation.  I think this event eclipses 9/11 by a huge margin in terms of relief effort needed.

I donated $500 to the Red Cross an hour ago.

www.redcross.org

... in response to Re: Hurricane Katrina [support needed], posted by Patrick on Sep 2, 2005


5, 50 or 500...we all can contribute something. Besides money, one probably can go down to thier local Salvation Army or Red Cross & help load goods...

This tragedy CANNOT slip to Page Six in our lives! Whatever you give, will be more than welcomed!

... in response to Re: Hurricane Katrina [support needed], posted by Patrick on Sep 2, 2005

Quite a few people are donating. Have you seen the donation numbers?

... in response to Hurricane Katrina, posted by OkieMan on Sep 1, 2005

Huh?  with all due respect and I'm trying to start a fight, but you said, that  "help must seem slow"? Man, the effort to save New Orleans is in fact too slow. I am from New Orleans and My family is still there(all safe thank God) There is no one in the US government that will  disagree with the fact that response has been way too slow.  In fact, the only person not claiming so is Michael Brown head of FEMA.  He is blaming the delay on the looting and violence. That is striaght BS.  If you go to any New Orleans based website(www.nola.com or local TV stations websites) and get the daily reports from local officials, they state clearly that the violence and looting is only a minute population.  I don't condone stealing but if you saw the early images from CNN, overwhelmingly, most of the people were stealing food, pampers, things to drink.  Remember people evacuated as early as Saturday evening.  Looting didn't really start up until about Tuesday evening with it esculating during the last 36 hours. Those individuals that are stealing clothes, electronics would be stealing those things regardless of of a flood and they are not indicative of the vast majority of people from New Orleans.

There has been failure at every level of Government, local, state, and especially Federal.  If you watch the news as I have, you will pick up bits of pieces of things and understand what is happening there.  There is policitcal infighting, posturing compounding by lack of communications, water, and electricity.  I hope the America realizes how severe this situation really is and shows the support it has shown for other national disasters.

... in response to Re: Hurricane Katrina, posted by Onephd on Sep 2, 2005

I wrote the first post late last night. As of this morning, President Bust is on his way to assess the situation, and kick up the response time.  I don't claim to know or understand all the situations.  The main thing is that I was trying to simply comment on this terrible natural disaster.  Instead of being in some third world country, we now have this catastrophe on our own shores!  How sad and tragic!

                             OkieMan

... in response to Re: Re: Hurricane Katrina, posted by OkieMan on Sep 2, 2005

President Bush
Man, we do not have a President , we have a total idiot running the country and i am a republican. This guy is not capable of getting things done. Thanks George for coming off your MONTH LONG VACATION 2 DAYS EARLY

FRIGEN IDIOT

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Hurricane Katrina, posted by Kiltboy1 on Sep 2, 2005

Kiltboy1

Are the city and state not responsible at all?  Are they not idiots? I smell a rat.  You sound like one of those democratic operatives that blames Bush first for everything.  The guy can't get a break.  

He went on National televison to declare a state of Emergency before the Hurricane hit.  It is not his fault if alot of these people stayed behind.  The Mayor got his incompetent ass out of the city and went to Baton Rouge.  Where is the Mayors leadership.  

Bring Rudy in there.  I am sure he would have handeled the situation a hell of alot differently.    

Keith

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Hurricane Katrina, posted by Kiltboy1 on Sep 2, 2005

You must be engaging your emotions before your brain.  There is no vacation if you are president.  H's working all the time.  Get a grip.  It's always a state and local problem.  The feds have very little disaster management talent.

... in response to Re: Hurricane Katrina, posted by Onephd on Sep 2, 2005

I think the delay is intentional, they know if they had dropped food and water on tuesday (and we all know they could have) the people would want more and not want to leave the city. They want everyone out so they are waiting until today and they will send in LOTS of buses today. The people will be fighting to leave and that's what they want. Then they will declare martial law and send the reporters home saying, "We have evacuated everyone, now we need to collect the bodies, go home no one wants to see that". Then tell will send in the military to clean up the few that are left.

... in response to Re: Re: Hurricane Katrina, posted by Bubba on Sep 2, 2005

And what is exactly the motive for this?

... in response to Conspiracy already in progress?, posted by Heat on Sep 2, 2005

Just to get the people to leave, they have ordered a complete abandonment of NO and a lot of people wouldn't leave if they could get food and water.

... in response to Re: Conspiracy already in progress?, posted by Bubba on Sep 2, 2005

Sorry, I can't join the hate Bush party. Give the guy a break. It's not like something like this happens all the time. New Orleans was a disaster waiting to happen. It's a city below sea level in a major hurricane area. I don't think it should be rebuilt. Let it revert to its natural state, a salt water marsh.

It's an insult to all the people down there doing what they can to say that nothing has been done to help the people of New Orleans.

... in response to Re: Re: Conspiracy already in progress?, posted by Avispa on Sep 2, 2005

I agree with that assessment, except for one thing.  We have to have the ports there.  So, the ports must be rebuild and maintained; but the city itself should be somehow rebuilt in a somewhat better location.  Man has already screwed up the natural marshes surrounding that area around the Mississippi River.  That needs to be restored and put the people in an area a little higher elevation.  I know it will be tough to do, but why rebuild in that "fish bowl"?  That's nuts!!
At any rate, I certainly would never want to live there.
At least in Oklahoma, I can usually dodge the tornadoes.  There on the Gulf, the disaster area is the size of Great Britain!!  That's hard to dodge!

               
                                 OkieMan

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Conspiracy already in progre..., posted by OkieMan on Sep 3, 2005

Great points, Oke.

Unfortunately, not rebuilding the city is seen by many as sacrilegious.  House Speaker Dennis Hastert expressed an opinion about abandoning such an effort, and he was immediately denounced

So, "Katrina 2: Marsh Blues Revisited," should be in theaters within twenty years.

One columnist equates such efforts with mudslide lovin' homeowners in California:

"It’s the same toss of the dice in California. It makes no sense to me to build a house on the side of a potential mudslide. People do it. They take pictures of their grand homes and send them all over the place. They brag on their chances. And then calamity hits.  

They go back and ask for the same mudslide spill all over again."

http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/article_9315.shtml

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Conspiracy already in pr..., posted by doombug on Sep 3, 2005

Doombug,

Good points.  Mark my words, the insurance companies are all taking such a hit, that somewhere along the way, they will force the issue.  For instance, they have refused to write flood insurance in certain areas already.  I don't know what all the stipulations are; but you can bet when insurance companies  start to refuse to insure certain areas (homes and businesses), and because of that many lending institutions will not lend to build, because they know that there is a strong likelyhood of storm damage-- that is when the changes will really come.  Hit people hard enough in the old pocket book and you get their attention.  It is absolutely stupid to continue to build in such a way where you are almost guaranteed to be damaged or destroyed again!  With all the storms(hurricanes, tornadoes, etc) that has hit Florida, and the gulf states, I bet many people will not even be able to rebuild.  Even though I don't like insurance companies, you can't blame them for putting the brakes on this kind of lunacy!  Maybe that will turn the tide on these people doing what they do, I don't know.  One can only hope.

                               OkieMan

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Conspiracy already i..., posted by OkieMan on Sep 3, 2005

A lot of reasons that homes will continue to be built in danger zones have more to do with lobbying. The real estate industry loves those coastlines and make sure the government will bailout a home worth millions(federal flood insurance). The insurance industry doesn't want to cover them but Uncle Sam will because their is money to be made by the people who greased the politicians in setting up relief funds to homeowners who might lose the home to a catastrophe. If it was allowed to private industry and they were unwilling to cover these homes then they would not be built, your tax dollars at work.

The question is where do you build homes? Almost the whole US has some form of catastrophe that could emerge. Earthquakes, Hurricanes, Tornados, Floods we have it all. We even have a mother of all catastrophes under Yellowstone waiting in dormancy, hopefully for a long long time.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Conspiracy alrea..., posted by stefang on Sep 4, 2005

Stefang,

Good points.  However, you would seem to indicate that the "movers and shakers",(the big money people) who do indeed make things happen, are the major consideration there. That is true to some extent, but that is not the total picture.  What about the poor who generation after generation can not or will not provide for themselves; but they want the government to continually bail them out when something bad happens. I heard today that the poor also live in the lowest part (elevation wise) of the basin that New Orleans sits in.  Everyone down there knew that, but the evacuation was not handled right.  As far as I am concerned, that is up to the local and State government agencies.  They were there all these years, day in and day out, knowing that this could happen.  Bush or any President cannot handle every single problem for every single city in the country.  Again, that is what the State and local governments are supposed to be doing for their own people.  Then it is up to the people to use the brain that God gave them to get out of harms way.  The only ones with an excuse are the children, the elderly, the sick, etc. I am far from a rich man, so I am not an elitist.  I am just tired of people from any and all walks of life thinking that the government owes them a living.  The last time I checked, all levels of government gets their money from taxing the rest of us.  So, how about a little more personal responsibility, and a little less sitting around for someone else to bail you out?  Having said that, I am still very compassionate towards the hurricane victims. By the way, Oklahoma is now housing many of these hurricane victims.  I also think a dose of common sense should prevail when it comes to "rebuilding" in these known hurricane and flood proned areas.  For instance, the area I live in is very close to the Arkansas River, and for years was very prone to flooding. In my part of the state, we are fairly low elevation too.   But, we passed some bond issues to deal with proper flood control, etc, and now we are all much better off.  Plus, I will tell you  that my own home and land is not right on the banks of the river.  It is in a very safe area.  I don't like courting disaster.  Again, common sense.  By the way, we have a major port in our area that connects to the Mississippi River. Barges from here float right down the Mississippi to New Orleans-- and they have been doing that for years. So, all of this disaster is affecting our economy too; especially if the port of New Orleans is not opened up soon! Also, Oklahoma has a huge amount of lakes for its size. So, I do have some prospective on these issues.  Our waterways are very important to us.

                              OkieMan

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Conspiracy already in progre..., posted by OkieMan on Sep 3, 2005

Everything that you say is true

beattledog