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I have gotten the impression that many here in the forum have had (or have friends who have had) marriages with latina women that didn't work out.  I have a buddy who's getting ready to marry a Peruana and my question is: how many of you guys asked your girl to sign a pre-nuptial agreement, how did she respond, etc?

As a side, how long did the marriages last and what were the main reasons for divorcing?  How many of you found that your women became Americanized, etc?  And when you did divorce, what happened?  Did she take you for a lot of dough, did she have to go back to LA, etc?

I met a guy when I was in Barranquilla in March who said the first three years with his Colombiana (he was recently divorced) were incredible... then she got a job... then she got a car... then she started hanging out with ex-football players...

thanks,
-Z

... in response to pre-nups?, posted by zed on May 2, 2005

There are two diametrictly opposed sides here. Let's ignore the 'you might hurt her feelings' if you present one or 'I really do trust her so I don't need one' and the 'UhUh, aint not woman getting half of MY stuff if she doesn't behave'  rethoric for a minute and ask the real question:

What is your pre-nup agreement actually worth? Not the toner it took to print it, if she says through a court appointed intrepreter (that you'll probably wind up paying for as a 'court cost', BTW): "Your honor, he tricked me. He lead me to beleive that this document was part of the normal U.S. marriage requirements (or part of the immigration procedure) and told me that I HAD TO sign it or the judge wouldn't marry us (or INS wouldn't let me stay)".....and she'll probably be able to make that stick unless you provided her with a bilingual lawyer who represented strictly HER interests, and it certainly wouldn't hurt if said lawyer is on her country's consulate office 'approved' list. Who's a judge going to beleive? Some MOB loser or the sweet little thing he took advantage of? I don't mean to imply that as a whole we are 'losers' (remember, I'm in this group also) nor that all the women are pure, sweet and innocent, just asking which way you think a judge will lean.

Those of you who still want one, fine with me, you're not picking my pocket nor breaking my leg, but if you want it done, get it done 'bullet proof'.

... in response to pre-nups?, posted by zed on May 2, 2005


BTW, there is a lot of information in the archives on prenups.  A very good thread was found by using the search function, typing in "prenup".  An especially good and interesting thread was started by Zack entitled "Latinas and prenups, dated 12/01/05.

Zack, did you tell your sweety about your desire to do a prenup and how did she respond?

... in response to pre-nups?, posted by zed on May 2, 2005

I got a prenup.  It cost $1500.  But, when the lawyer explained to her that she has rights to nothing, it shook her up emotionally.  The emotional impact is the most difficult part.  But, she is alright now.  You can also do it yourself.  Nolo press has an excellent book with all the prenup templates on a CD and you can put it together yourself get it signed and notorized without lawyers.   This has less of a negative psychological impact.  There is no legal requirement to have a lawyer do a prenup, although the lawyers want you to believe there is.

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by valuedcustomer on May 3, 2005


Has anyone that you know or any poster on the board used the Nolo Press templates?  

The pre-nup also has to be translated into her language, does it not?

... in response to Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by pablo on May 3, 2005


When I was investigating this, I found several websites that do certified translation like this one:  http://www.online-languagetranslators.com/spanish.htm.  But, as I mentioned I ended up using a lawyer instead.   However, if you do a translation, which translation serves as the prenup ... the English version or the Spanish version?  This creates ambiguity.  Even a certified legal translator could make mistakes and then you have two documents with two different meanings.  My bilingual lawyer made an English version and then personally explained the meaning of every paragraph to her in Spanish and gave her an opportunity to ask questions on each paragraph making sure she understood the meaning.  This is more effective then a Spanish hardcopy because you have if documented that a fluent Spanish speaker fully explained the entire document to her in person and gave her an opportunity to ask questions and make objections or agree to the terms.  

... in response to pre-nups?, posted by zed on May 2, 2005

I pulled the plug after 6 months (prior to her coming to the States, though).  She was too volatile, among other things.  Didn't want to deal with this after she got here, when it'd be much costlier and damaging.

No pre-nup; and I have to wait 2 years before we can sign the divorce papers.  (Per Peruvian law.)

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by doombug on May 3, 2005

Did I hear you right?  You broke up with your girl and have to start over?  Wow dude sorry about that.

The good news is you can start over with out much trouble.

... in response to Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by Heat on May 3, 2005

Seen how a lot of guys here and elsewhere had novias/esposas who appreciated them more or had better dispositions than mine.  I chose too soon, when I should have followed the advice often given here:  Shop around.

... in response to pre-nups?, posted by zed on May 2, 2005

I am a lawyer and practiced family law for several years during which time I probably handled 500-600 divorces. No pre-nup for me. I would not marry any woman with whom I felt that I needed a pre-nup.

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by utopiacowboy on May 2, 2005

[This message has been edited by pablo]

UC,

That's the first I ever heard you were a lawyer.  Traded in the legal spurs for the cowboy spurs I see.  

Now your disclaimer that you sometimes post makes perfect sense:-)

"Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult."

However, your position not to get a pre-nup surprises me somewhat being that you are an attorney.  Does it have to do with trust/love issues, etc. or is it because of the many divorces that you handled?  I would love for you to elaborate on this and also have another authority with an opposing view.

If one did want a pre-nup, where would you recommend a guy look for one?  I know getting one is somewhat more difficult with a foreign spouse.

Gary B. too, any suggestions in this area?

Gracias.

... in response to Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by pablo on May 3, 2005

Thank you for your question inviting comment from me, Pablo.
I know that you have been a friend so I will make certain comments.
(This will have to be my only public post on this topic however and
I cannot field questions here, but people know how to contact me offline.)

As you know, I have a limited practice in Premarital Agreements for
U.S. gentlemen and Latinas and have done a number of them over
the years.

I prefer not to be drawn into a public debate about the merits or demerits
of "Prenups", more correctly termed state-law "Premarital" or "Antenuptial"
Agreements. In my experience, most guys have pretty fixed and unalterable
views on this topic anyway (they want it or won't marry, or they won't marry
if they feel any need to want it). Some consider a Premarital Agreement
vital, others think they are of little value, except in very limited situations.
Only very few are open to even small, much less radical, shifts in opinion.

Regardless of one's opinion about "prenups", the cold fact is that everyone
already has a "prenup" whether they realize it or not - it is your current state
law rules about property distribution and alimony, spousal support or
maintenance, in case of marriage dissolution.

As for my own view of Premarital Agreements, I subscribe to the conservative
school, it's better to have one - but for the few, not the masses. In other words,
I think that not everybody needs a "prenup". It may however be appropriate for
certain gentlemen in certain couple relationships.

Typically, these are gentlemen who have SUBSTANTIAL needs for
asset and income protection based on their wealth accumulation and
net worth, they are usually men who have been married before once,
twice or more often and gotten "burned", they might have one or more
children from a previous marriage whom they wish to protect financially
in case of a brief new marriage, and men who are concerned about separation
and divorce rates especially in that people and circumstances can often change
over time and who thus prefer to have an "insurance policy".

I believe that a properly drafted Premarital Agreement which complies
with state law and other laws can survive a court challenge, but there is
never a guarantee of course; there are only best efforts to maximize the
probability that it will be successful.  

Premarital Agreements are creatures of your state law and should be carefully
customized to fit a client's situation and needs, if they have any hope to
survive a court challenge. Thus for anyone serious about it, it's always best
to consult an attorney familiar with your particular situation and with the current
requirements and trends of your state law in this area. (I am always astonished
how much misleading and blatantly false information about "prenups" is found
on the Internet.) Another important document which your attorney should be
familiar with is the model law called the "Uniform Premartial Agreement Act"
which has been adopted in many states and is followed by the courts in most
states, even in those which have not yet adopted it formally.

An interesting and unique area as concerns Premarital Agreements with Latinas
or other foreign ladies under visas is how your state law Premarital Agreement
will interact with the minimum financial obligations of the I-134 and I-864
federal Affidavit of Support for immigration. Thus, your state law attorney should
also have a working familiarity with these immigration rules to properly advise you.

As concerns the couple's "trust" issue, I believe that a properly drafted
Premarital Agreement, with language for example memorializing a couple's
love and commitment to each other and expectations for the marriage, can
actually strengthen the relationship and effectively transform a document which
otherwise many initially might view as a "divorce agreement" into just the opposite,
a "marriage agreement" which helps fortify the bonds of a couple's trust.

For more reading on these and other points, see this article on the topic:

http://www.usaimmigrationattorney.com/PremaritalArticleLatina.html

Good luck to all in your "Prenup" and relationship decisions,
GB

... in response to Re: Re: Re: pre-nups? (Long Comment) , posted by Gary Bala on May 3, 2005

.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: pre-nups? (Long Comment) , posted by Gary Bala on May 3, 2005


Thank you Gary and UC for your replies as they are very much appreciated.  My opinion about "premarital" agreements has changed over the years, certainly not because I have substantial assets, rather crashed and burned, and do have two wonderful children.  

I hope everyone does a copy and paste in their file somewhere.  

Thanks for the link too even if it is to your site.  Only teasing amigo.

... in response to Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by pablo on May 3, 2005

Well, Pablo, as an attorney if someone were to ask me for my advice on this matter, I would recommend a pre-nup. A pre-nup probably would have come in handy in many of the divorces that I handled. I guess I'm like George Clooney after he was blinded by love in "Intolerable Cruelty" - just couldn't do a pre-nup for myself and my wife.

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by utopiacowboy on May 2, 2005

UC said...
"I would not marry any woman with whom I felt that I needed a pre-nup"

First let me say that I feel very strongly about this subject, and my opinion is diametrically opposed to yours.  I can´t say I "disagree" with you, because you didn´t offer advice, you merely stated your position for yourself.  Very tactful, and clever I might add...

Although life experience forces my opinion to differ from yours, what my HEART will dictate to me at the time I´m hearing wedding bells may be another story :-)

Having been divorced from my high school sweetheart after 15 years of marriage, I ALSO did not "marry a woman with whom I felt that I needed a pre-nup".  We dated for 3 years, since 10th grade, then were engaged for 1 year.  To the outside world we seemed like the perfect couple, not unlike Heathcliff and Claire Huxtable.  Both of us were devout Christians, both sets of parents had been married for 30 plus years, etc., etc., etc.  We BOTH entered into marriage under the concept that divorce is NOT an option... In fact there are friends that we grew up with that would not believe we are divorced, and some that know STILL don´t believe it...

One of the things I have learned about divorce from a practical standpoint is that the process is LONG, and emotionally and financially DRAINING.  Far more important to me than the financial loss, was the emotional drain.  The INABILITY to move on with your respective lives, after the death sentence on your marriage has been pronounced, simply because the LEGAL PROCESS takes so LONG.

We had no children.  Only assets to divide.  The legal nature of divorce REQUIRES agreement.  If the parties don´t come to their own agreement, then the court and the loss of money to feed insatiable attorneys will GRADUALLY force the parties to come to agreement.  The emotional nature of divorce is rooted in disagreement.  You do the financial AND EMOTIONAL math...

In short, I think EVERYONE should get a pre-nup IF it can be used a mechanism to dissolve a failed marriage more quickly.

There has been nothing worse in my life than being legally and emotionally tied to a failed marriage, with my life on hold, waiting ENDLESSLY for cooperation from an uncooperative spouse, THEN for the judge to enter a final divorce decree... even when the divorce decree is issued by the judge, the judge asks a final time if BOTH parties WANT the divorce... man was THAT a scary moment... if one party says NO, then the emotional and financial meter starts ticking again...

... in response to Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by Looking4Wife on May 3, 2005

I guess that is one thing the pre-nup won't protect you from... the other person not wanting a divorce...

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by utopiacowboy on May 2, 2005

[This message has been edited by jediknight]

i agree with you UC, the idea of a prenup has never entered my mind when thinking about spending the rest of my life with my girlfriend.. if it had or if i had any doubt, i wouldn't be thinking about marrying her, i'd rather stay single and have many girlfriends with benefits. as far as we're concerned once we get married, that's it, there's no option for divorce, a prenup would put a dark clould over the relationship from the beginning before it even gets started, there would be a lack of trust right from the start and i would not be with someone that i couldn't trust, like the saying goes...prefiero estar solo que mal acompañado. is it possible that i can make a mistake or that things can change in the future, of course but i'm doing everything i can to make sure that doesn't happen, talking to her as much as i can about everything, finding out exactly what kind of person she is, what her character is like through her family and friends, this is really all i can do and as far as i'm concerned she is the one for me.

however, i can understand how someone who has accumilated wealth over the years and expects to continue to do so might be afraid of making a mistake, of marrying the wrong person. there are many women who play the game perfectly, they'll tell you exactly what you want to hear,be affectionate and appear to be the perfect woman for you but as soon as she gets what she wants then you're the one paying for it in the end with a divorce and half of what you've earned together, unfortunatly it happens and it has happened to many here and countless others and it's not just the womans fault, many times it's the guys rushing into things too quickly, not paying attention to signs of potential problems or ignoring red flags, whatever the reasons may be these are the guys that should have a prenup,the ones that are not entirely sure about their novias.
JK

... in response to Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by jediknight on May 3, 2005


Another aspect of a pre-nup besides protecting accumulated wealth before marriage that I think should be addressed is if there are children from a previous marriage.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a pre-nup or posibly better, a living will, be a means to assure the husband's wishes for his children if he were to die?

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by utopiacowboy on May 2, 2005

I feel the same way.

Hey Babe, I don't trust you, but if you'll just sign away the rights I'd have to give an AW, I'll marry you anyway.........says a lot more about the man's poor judgement than it does about the woman's possible poor character. Why on earth anybody would marry somebody they don't trust is beyond me.

... in response to Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by Michael B on May 3, 2005


Michael,

I hear what you are saying but it doesn't necessarily have to do with not trusting a fiancée if you want a pre-nup but rather an "insurance policy" to protect your hard earned assets in the unfortunate but 50+% chance that the marriage will fail.  No one (or at least no one should) enters into a marriage thinking that they will be getting a divorce down the road but the odds are against most marriages and that they WILL fail.

People change and what once may have been a great marriage could end up on the rocks, then what?  If you are in a community state your ex-wife would be entitled to half of everything that you own.  I think if it's handled correctly, it doesn't have to be an issue that involves poor judgment, or he doesn't love me/trust me enough.

... in response to Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by Michael B on May 3, 2005

Micheal B and Utopiacowboy,

I agree with you in that I wouldn't marry a woman I don't trust either. But even if I trusted a woman 100% I would still get a prenup because some people change over time.  After 5 or 10 years of marriage that sweet, trustworthy Latina may be more hard-nosed or frustrated, or even vindictive, especially if the marriage hasn't been working as well as you expected. Every man who got burned because they didn't get a prenup says the same thing in the end: "I didn't get a prenup because I trusted her. She isn't the same woman today that she was 10 years ago."

Zack

... in response to Re: Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by zack on May 3, 2005


My point exactly.

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by utopiacowboy on May 2, 2005

i agree with you.  I want the pre-nup for my protection, not hers.  i will never marry a woman who will not sign the prenup

beattledog

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by utopiacowboy on May 2, 2005

From my perspective this is one of the more valuable posts on this board in a long time...

... in response to Re: Re: pre-nups?, posted by MarkNJ on May 3, 2005

My two cents…well maybe a nickel!  Concerning Pre-nups…

Women change…so do men… what if your wife cheats on you, withholds love from you, or treats you like dirt? Do you want to hand over half of your assets? And, gentlemen...what if you change your mind?

We have the right to change our minds …if a marriage is not working you should be in the position to let the lady know so she can find true love and you can find happiness…I believe most of us  want the same thing in a relationship…to be loved, to be respected, to be treated with dignity, to feel like we have good communication, etc…in  that respect, wouldn’t it be nice to have; a spouse who really loves us and just doesn’t stay with us for the benefits of financial security…

Regarding the actual Pre-nup document…I think that you should have an attorney prepare your pre-nup document but than you need to review it closely. Make sure that it is not just a one way document that favors you and just you. Throw some things in there for your wife.  Add some loving language to soften the document. Why?   Attorneys are paid to represent your interests and they usually make the document sound so harsh that you can’t blame a lady for not wanting to sign.

Also guys, especially the newer guys that are just starting to explore South America…Believe me when I tell you- that you are in the driver’s seat. This is not Kansas anymore….it may take you some time but the smart guys figure out real soon that our rules do not apply down here! You are the man and you can ask for what you really want and as importantly what you need. Many of the men in South America do not want marriage- as it impedes them from fooling around. We Americans offer fidelity and security..That is what many of these ladies are looking for.

So deliver the goods. Just make sure you are getting a fair exchange- in return….Most of the men I know tell me what they really want is to be loved and respected. They want to feel like they really make a difference and I believe most men really want to provide for their woman...  In one way or another they want to feel like real men. How does this occur…?  It may be different for each and evey man, but I can tell you, that once you feel that you are that real man, it makes you want to do everything for that lady. So few women really understand that about men…From what I have observed, most men want to feel like they are good providers, respected and that they are  loved.   Most women want to feel like they are loved and are providing something very useful to the relationship. They don’t truly understand our needs  just as so few of us really understand their needs...Unless you are blessed , it stands to reason that there could be future problems.

A good approach concerning pre nuptials…Tell your wife in a kind way, make her feel secure, plan for her financial future and security but make sure you protect yourself and your family. Such as…? Let your future wife know that your house may go to your children if you have them and not to her and her family.  Just make sure that you also have some life insurance to provide for her welfare.

By the way pre-nups must be drafted correctly, signed at least a few weeks before the marriage, must be witness and notarized and both parties must give full disclosure of their assets. It is best to attach a schedule of assets and liabilities to that pre-nup and have that witnessed as well. Have the document done in English and in Spanish…There are even attorneys on this messege board who can get you through this stuff in a nice way so you are not shooting yourself in the foot. If you did these documents yourself you may never even be aware of these above  requirements…and also, each state can have special requirements.

Someone mentioned that each state is different…that is so true. What applies in one state may not apply at all in another state. I also favor having Trust documents drawn up that have separate property agreements. It protects your assets in most cases and is not   as harsh as many pre-nups. Also, in some states, simply keeping your property in your own name and not adding her as a joint owner can help protect those assets.

In summary, by doing proper planning with a good pre-nup, trust documents, insurance polices, and the like... you can protect both you and your spouse…I have done estate planning for a lot of years. My experience tells me that you need to go to a well informed attorney for preliminary help and for drafting of the actual documents. However, you need to make sure that you in fact provide for your future wife in the event of your early demise, disability, sickness, etc. Also, she should be taken care of somewhat over the years. She may not work in a well paying profession but that is not reason to leave her without resources in future years. Good luck gentlemen...and I might add, may all men experience the warmth of a Latin lady at least once in their lifetime!

... in response to Re: Re: Re: pre-nups?(kinda of long!), posted by Lifeisgreat on May 3, 2005

I think it's the winner.  Great JOB!

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by utopiacowboy on May 2, 2005


Well done, well said UTC....

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by utopiacowboy on May 2, 2005

n/t

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by utopiacowboy on May 2, 2005

Either did my brother, but after 5 years of marriage, his wife thought the grass was greener on the other side of the fence, and soon filed for divorce, and we all thought she was nice girl, had her head on straight, level headed ect, People change and so do marriages. Any man with assets
marrying a girl with none, which is the norm with marrying a foreign women, should have one. Ask yourself, or her this question, what are you bringing to the table (so to speak) as far as assets. Most women, nothing, the man, a lot. Who do you think will get half the assets in a divorce, the WOMAN. Sorry, I didnt work my butt off for 20 years, so somebody could take HALF.

... in response to Re: pre-nups?, posted by utopiacowboy on May 2, 2005

that is interesting .... I am maybe a few months away from being married . please explain briefly why you do not consider to have a pre-nup... ok  Jake

... in response to pre-nups?, posted by zed on May 2, 2005

Get a pre-nup!!! You tell her no pre-nup no marriage. I was marred to a B**** from Bogotá for 3 months and it was all about money. My Ex came here and changed about a week later. Now I am marred to one of the most wonderful persons in the world, a great lady from Cali. If your girlfriend loves you she will sign. But you got to make the pre-nup look as she was not being used or taken advantage of or a Judge will through it out.

Marriage is a contract, an agreement with guarantees from the state (each US state is different) One guarantee is alimony and the other is 50% of what you made during the time of your marriage. The only way you can get out of alimony and the 50% is for your wife to give up her rights given to her by the state,  The same as way as someone giving up their right to a speedy trial. The only thing you cannot get out of is child support.

Now Colombian women are more understanding about signing pre-nups, they realize times have changed. Relationships don’t last forever. I told wife when we started dating that I would not get marred without a pre-nup. And she understood. My wife could had the right to stop seeing me and dropped me like a rock and found someone else. But my wife is secure in herself that if things don’t work out between us, she still has a life ahead of her without me buying it for her.

Marriage is the only place where you can get screwed twice … once in the marriage and next in court, three times if she screwing your best friend.

People change all the time. Is a B**** worth the risk of you losing your will being?  

... in response to pre-nups?, posted by zed on May 2, 2005

Better have one.