Colombia... castellano o espanol?

[thunderbolt]

... in response to Re: re France (long - you have been warn..., posted by AGUILA on Feb 22, 2005

France routinely invades its former colonies - without much foreign protest.  French backed the gov't in Rwanda that presided over the genocide - again noone protested.  They for God's sake blow up nukes in Tahiti of all places - and again nobody protests.

Weird, ha?  Inasmuch as they are mindful of the muslims who live in France, french politicians do not base their policy solely on that.  If the arab countries were to blow up something there, or block oil, or something of that nature, you can rest assured the reaction will follow  France is the most trigger happy country out there when it comes to protecting its 'interests'.

[OkieMan]

... in response to Re: Re: re France (long - you have been ..., posted by thunderbolt on Feb 22, 2005

Hey, maybe some terrorists will try to ruin the French wine and cavier markets.  Then maybe the French will act like they give a crap about the Arab terrorists groups!
I can't speak for anyone else, but I have always thought that a country that thinks eating snails is good food was more than a little strange!

                             OkieMan

[AGUILA]

... in response to Re: Re: re France (long - you have been ..., posted by thunderbolt on Feb 22, 2005

France's policies are very scewed when it comes to antagonizing the Muslims. They would not let our planes fly over their airspace from England when we bombed Libya. Some ally!
They gave Sadam assurances that Uncle Sam would not invade him and did all they could to be a thorn in our side.
I can't recall when they have ever taken the side against a Muslim nation in the last 30 years. In the first Iraq war although they sided against Sadam they still were on the side of the majority of the other Muslim countries against Sadam.
Unfortunately their policy and those of an increasing number of western euro countries with large Muslim populations are being influeneced by this ever increasing population.
An english writer this past year wrote an excellent book  on how if current birthrate trends continue, Muslims will be in the majority in the EC by the the year 2050.

[Malandro]

... in response to re France (long - you have been warned), posted by thunderbolt on Feb 22, 2005

every country will do what it believes it is in its best interest.  France's precarious reliance on foreign sources of energy make it unwilling to go along with the US.  

although I am not sure they "gain alot" by being against Bush, rather they don't lose anything.  

I believe that 90% of Spaniards were against the Iraq invasion but Aznar sent troops anyway.  He was quite popular but his tenure ended in catastrophe when they tried to blame the train bombing on ETA instead of muslim terrorists.  

but I believe it was Aznar who contributed to Afganistan as well before the new government was elected last year.  I am not sure if the new government would have offered troops if they were not already there.

[Pete E]

... in response to Good perspective on France, posted by Malandro on Feb 22, 2005

There was even probably popular support for Neville Chamberlin when he temporarily avoided facing reality before WW2.The short sigtedness and gutlessness of the general population can be very disheartening.But when you have one group telling you something costly isnecesary and another group saying it is not who would you like to believe?
There is a desire to not get involved or not sacrifice anything on the part of  a general population.Kind of a mass inertia against doing anything.Why us?Its not our problem.
Thats where leadership is important.A  LEADER does not just take a poll of his largely uninformed populace and decide what to do based on that.That was Clintons style,his poll was the polls.If a leader,with his
access to huge amounts of imformation,and a responsibility for what could happen decides it is in the best interests of his country to do something he needs to sell it to his  country.
A WORLD leader is a person who can even go beyond just
just thinking about the immediate effects of an action on his own country and look at the long term effects for the world.Tony Blair is such a person I think.Anzar I'm not sure,but I think similar.
Actually there was a huge misread of the US involvement in Vietnam.Yes we eventually got out.But the US population mostly went along with  a bad set of choices by the government for years.We automatically supported the president for the most part untill the failed policies became overwhelmingly obvious.Saddam Housein took this as a sign of American weakness and lack of will.He misread American resolve.He was described as a brinksman who didn't know where the brink is.So now his butt is in Jail instead of running his country,a very good outcome I would argue.

Pete

[OkieMan]

... in response to Hopefully Blair doesn't follow Anzar, posted by Pete E on Feb 22, 2005

Pete,

You mentioned Neville Chamberlain.  Now, there was a man who could have really lead his nation, but instead was a stupid pacifist.  History has not been kind to him.  I lived in England for two years, and I got to know many of the Brits.  They have monuments build to Churchill, nothing for Chamberlain.  But, it seems that the many European countries don't remember the sacrifices of those days.  They find it easier to "hide their head in the sand" too.  Mark my words, it will come home to roost, one day!  In my opinion, it already has; the European governments just don't know it yet!

                                 OkieMan

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Hopefully Blair doesn't follow Anzar, posted by OkieMan on Feb 22, 2005

Churchill lost his relection as prime minister right after the war.Real short memory or short on gratitude over there.
Goog luck Tony.You are my hero even if your countrymen are not big on you right now.

Pete

[OkieMan]

... in response to But - - , posted by Pete E on Feb 22, 2005

Pete,
You are right, he did lose that election.  However, if memory serves me right, he had one more go at it.  At any rate, I was looking at the "big picture".  After all these years, I think history has been very kind to Mr. Churchill; not so with Mr. Chamberlain.  Through the passage of time, many events and people involved in those events can be seen in a better light; be it for good or bad.

                                OkieMan

[Pete E]

... in response to But - - , posted by Pete E on Feb 22, 2005

In my opinion 3  real giants of world leaders have come out of England in the last 60 years.Churchill,Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair.
And Margaret Thatcher didn't ride in to fame as someones wife like  Hilary.She got to her position the old fashioned way.She earned it.

Pete

[OkieMan]

... in response to And - - , posted by Pete E on Feb 22, 2005

Yeah, I agree about those people.  I lived in England when Maggie was first elected.  Most of us americans (Air Force types) were very impressed with her.  She certainly served her country with honor and distinction.  I came back to the States in July of 80, just in time to help elect Ronald Reagan.  He is certainly one of my heroes!  Today, I bought my first batch of Ronald Reagan postage stamps.  Cool.

                                OkieMan

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: good info Pete my point bein..., posted by OkieMan on Feb 21, 2005

The problem with France is we saved their ass twice and they have never forgiven us for it.
There is lots of negativity in europe about the US.They resent our power.Plus there is a pacifist reaction to WW2.
Kind of like we got in to after WW1.We didn't want to get involved.Kind of a desire not to be responsible for anything.
There seems to be no thought at all about what a terrible oppresive regime Iraq was.Anybody who can't tell the difference between George Bush and Saddam Housein really has their head up their butt.Like night and day to any person whom is willing to THINK about it,not just negatively react.

Pete

Pete

[OkieMan]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: good info Pete my point ..., posted by Pete E on Feb 22, 2005

Pete,

 True, how true!  I think that DeGaulle was a major pain in the posterior, even though he did help some.  But, as you said, I think that much of the French attitude goes to the examples that you cited.  Also, Europe as a whole has become so socialized, not only in their government, but in the culture as well.  Pure and simple, in almost all cases, they will never see eye to eye with us.  It is just convenient for them to now blame President Bush and his policies on Iraq, etc.  But, no matter who is in the White House, the Europeans will find a way to make the US and "the bad guy". I have travelled to Europe quite a bit, but it was several years ago.  Even then, they were having a big problem with many of their immigrant citizens; mainly from camel jockey land!  Mak no mistake, those people are having a very adverse affect on European politics!

                                  OkieMan

[AGUILA]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: good info Pete my point bein..., posted by OkieMan on Feb 21, 2005

I was in Spain when Franco was alive and I will say this much, that sucker kept the prices cheap. My buddy and I had a 4  bedroom apartment on the beach in Torremolinas for $160/month! That was the going rate.
We went to Majorca and stayed at a 4 star hotel right along the water and paid $10 a day and it included 3 meals.
A heineken at the grocery store cost 9 cents back then (this was summer of 1975, months before he died)
Things were unbelievable cheap because Franco had installed all these price controls on everything. I would agree that it was 3rd world back then.
Lots of german tourists all over the place and also lots of english. The real fish and chips crowd on budget vacations.
You would be hard pressed to go out partying everynight and eat out every day and spend $100 for the week back then.

[OkieMan]

... in response to Franco, posted by AGUILA on Feb 21, 2005

Aquila,

That was an interesting story.  I did not realize that the prices of goods and services were so low back then.  What took you over there, at that time?  I have some cousins who were stationed in Spain in the 60's and 70's.  One of my cousins married a lady of Spain, so to speak.  They have been married now for over 30 years, and live in Wichita, Kansas.  They had two children, who are obviously grown now.  Unfortunately, I have not gotten to be around them in the last several years.  But, I remember them telling me stories about their time in Spain.  My cousin's wife is a little petite lady, and wouldn't you know it; her name is Maria!  What a shock, huh?  She is sweet too.

                         OkieMan

[AGUILA]

... in response to Re: Franco, posted by OkieMan on Feb 21, 2005

I went there when i was in college back in 75.