The story, # 3

[Pete E]

We have agreed to get married in early February.I will go home and work on all he paperwork for her spousal visa while she wraps up her job and plans the wedding.I extend my trip to 18 days.We spend every evening together plus weekends.We are never alone anywhere where the issue of sex ever came up.She is very affectionate.Nice sweet but less than passionate kisses.
After I get back home I am posting on the board here about it.I posted the whole story at the time.Too bad its gone but it would be embarrasing to have you read everything  I was saying at the time.Talk about the sheep headed for slaughter.
A guy who used to post here named Watcher came on and said you are making a huge mistake here.It started several days of posts.Everybody got in to it.Bud was deffending my quick choice like his quick choice and pointing out all the exits available to me if it turned out bad.
I was inspired,defending my choice.Things would just flash through my head in the shower.I am going to repeat one of them,it had a very spiritual meaning for me at the time.
"" "After my last post I took a shower.Sometimes I get inspiration in the shower.I remember something that had happened one time.I was standing in front of my car showroom.An old man was walking down the street and stopped to talk tp me.His wife had just died.They had been married 52 years.He said he met her at a Rodeo in Montana in 1939,he was a bronk rider.He told her "I have riden wild horses and wild women all over the west." He thougt he was a confirmed Bachelor.He said in A day I was broken.He married her the second day he knew her."
I also remembered a saying from the Prophet,by Cahlil Gibran.
"Think not you can guide the course of love,for love,if it finds you worthy,shall guide you course."'
Watcher comes back and says ,Pete,buddy,your my hero,good luck.
Problem is he was right.All of my thoughts were about my love for her.I didn't really know how she felt about me at all,and there were some red flags if I was willing to see them.
I had a back up plan in  response to the questions.If I am wrong I will just not even take her back with me.Or if it looks like its not working I will just send her back.And come and get another one.I was pretty cocky about it.Felt pretty powerfull at the time.
More later.
Pete

[DallasSteve2]

... in response to The story,  # 3, posted by Pete E on Oct 19, 2003

Pete

I wouldn't put my marriage up as a perfect example.  We have our problems and it may not last.  But, I would point out a couple of glaring differences to your experience.  

1 - My second trip to Cali I asked my wife to marry me.  We were in a nightclub named Fandango, I think, on Avenida Sexta.  She acted like she had just won the lottery.  Or better put, she acted like the man of her dreams just asked her to marry her.  That's the kind of reaction I would want to get.

2 - Same trip, I was with her in Ricardo's agency, All Colombian Girls, and there was another gringo there watching us.  After she left he said to me "I'm looking for a woman who shows me the kind of affection that she shows you".  And she still does.  Lot's of PDA from my wife.  More than I really want, but I try not to pour cold water on her feelings.

Anyway, if someone is getting the cool reception you were getting from your wife, they ought to stop all plans for marriage, in my opinion.

Steve

[Calipro]

... in response to Re: The story,  # 3, posted by DallasSteve2 on Oct 19, 2003

In my opinion the two most important things to a having a long relationship are good sex and a strong commitment to the relationship.

I think it is really important that you can make your wife or lover happy in bed and I don't think it takes a long time to find this out. Also, it has been my experiance that caleñas that are really interested in you are interested in knowing what you are like in bed. I think they put a lot of value on the physical satisfaction in a relationship. When they decide to jump in the sack with you is all over the road. Some will want to find out right away and not waste any time and others will require some kind of a commitment on your part. But, I don't think that most Caleñas are waiting for marriage to have sex. Let me put it this way. I have gone out with a lot of women in Cali that have never been married and I haven't found a virgin yet. Maybe there are some and I just didn't think they were interested but I have never even ran across a Caleña that has used the excuse that they were waiting for marriage to have sex. I wouldn't want to wait until she was here to find out that we weren't sexually compatible.

Comitment is the tuff one. You could know her six months and not have that one figured out at least not me. I had very good intimate relationships with both my ex-caleñas. The first one didn't have enough comitment and the last one didn't have any.

So it's all a crap shoot as far as I'm concerned. But, I wouldn't spend three weeks looking at the ceiling let alone three years. I'm not even close to being that nice a guy.

[Jersey Mike]

... in response to Sex and Commitment, posted by Calipro on Oct 19, 2003

With all due respect to your opinion, I think that great sex is vastly overrated as a barometer to the quality of a long-term relationship.  In my personal experience, the women of my past who were my most incredible sexual partners have been among the worst possible "wife material" (including my ex-wife and a long-time live-in girlfriend from Brazil.)  And truthfully, I've dumped (and been dumped by) some truly excellent women where there was no sexual chemistry between us.

However, when the sex is great, it certainly makes it easier to fall for a woman, or at least stick around when everthing else is going down the toilet.  Personally, I know I've put up with a lot more BS from women with whom I had great compatibility in bed.  

I've heard it is said that in marriage, sex is like money - plenty of either won't make a bad marriage good, but the lack of either will eventually cause a good marriage to go bad.  Of course, it is also said that if you put a coin in a jar for every time you have sex with your wife in the first year of marriage, and remove a coin from the same jar every time you have sex after the first year, you would never empty the jar. Both are probably not too far from the truth.

[DOMINGUIN]

... in response to Sex and Commitment, posted by Calipro on Oct 19, 2003

I'm not even close to being that nice a guy.

Really? No sh**t? You could have fooled me!!!

WR, just having a little fun!!

Dominguin

[valuedcustomer]

... in response to Sex and Commitment, posted by Calipro on Oct 19, 2003

I think the reason why alot of guys get into trouble in Colombia is because they have sex too quickly.  I am not talking from a position of sexual prudery, but rather it is an issue of control.  For example, if a man goes to an agency and then has sex with the first or second lady, he could be foreclosing his options and can be manipulated by guilt.  If he doesn’t have sex, he can go out with as many ladies as he wants and take his time choosing.  If a lady asks him for money or favors, he can immediately dismiss her without guilt because she is a stranger and he owes her nothing.  But, if she asks for money and he had sex with her the night before, he may be manipulated by his own guilt to give her money.  And, also the most dangerous, manipulative women are the ones who are the most aware of their sexual power and they are the most willing to use it without having any feelings for the man they are setting up.  Thus, a man too eager for sex is going to attract the worst women like a light attracts flies.  So why not wait awhile and save yourself a ton of heartache?  

As a side note, my novia finished reading a really interesting book “Yakuzi”.  It was written by an investigative reporter from Colombia who documents the Yakuzi ( “Japanese mafia”) and explains how they recruit Colombian women into prostitution in Japan.  The book will give you alot of insight into prostitution in Colombia.  There is another fictional book about a Brazilian prostitute which just came out by the Popular Latin American author Paulo Cuelho called “Onze minutos”.  Unfortunetly, I don’t think either book has an English version.  

[greg]

... in response to Re: Sex and Commitment, posted by valuedcustomer on Oct 19, 2003

Once a Guy that wasn't sexually active in America meet the first Woman South of the Border for sex, he may stick with her, even marry her. Most Good Guys don't want to become sexually involved with more than one woman, so yes having sex with the First woman in SA could be a problem for us FENCERS. The Fencer may fall in love with this lady after the first date of good sex, unfortunetly the Lady may decide that the sex wasn't good, and ditch the Guy. Fencer can be left with a broken heart on his first few days in Colombia. Not easy for old Farts to find an attractive younger Woman here, so when he arrive in SA..Mistakes do happen when thinking with the little head

[Calipro]

... in response to Agreed!!, posted by greg on Oct 20, 2003

One night of good sex and you're in love. You guys need to get out more!

I have heard some guys get beat by their wives, do you think it's true???

Don't let this happen to you!!

[Kiltboy1]

... in response to Wow!!, posted by Calipro on Oct 20, 2003

My wife hit me 1 time in the mouth during a heated arguement and it busted my lip.

I told her if she ever hit me again , she better have her bags packed when she does , because she will not be living in my house ever again.I told her she is not in Colombia anymore and that we do not tolerate behavior like this in America.

She also has gotten my passwords to my emails and looked at who i am sending to.I showed her the article about the woman in Arizona that went to jail for doing the same thing and that privacy is protected in this country . I think it woke he up !!

[Calipro]

... in response to Re: Sex and Commitment, posted by valuedcustomer on Oct 19, 2003

[This message has been edited by Calipro]

I think I'll skip the books on prositution. It's a topic I am not really interested in.

I can tell you truthfully that I have never felt guilty as a result of having sex with any women. But, then again I have never forced myself on any women. I'm not sure why anyone would feel guilty for having sex unless it was because you broke some religious convictions. But, that's why I like this board so much. I never knew some of you guys were around. So please explain if you have time.

Also it is not always good for a women to jump into bed with me because I am just as likely to dump her for not having sexual chemistry than to buy her anything. I am a firm believer that most people don't have a lot of control over who they are attracted to sexualy so I don't think it pays to buy a women anything in the begining of a relationship (at all).

And if you are going to tell me that women don't enjoy sex as much as men, I won't buy that either because I have been to bed with quite a few women that I am sure enjoyed themselves more than I did.

I don't know how much heartach I have caused myself with this approach to life and women. But, I have certainly saved myself a lot of frustration by spending a lot of time with women that are not interested in me in a sexual way.

[valuedcustomer]

... in response to Re: Re: Sex and Commitment, posted by Calipro on Oct 20, 2003

I was using “you” in the plural sense and my comments were not specifically directed at you personally.  Unfortunately, English doesn’t differentiate between a plural and singular “you” like Spanish does.  

Some guys do feel guilty..... not for having sex.... but because they think they have some obligation to a woman that they just had sex with.  Why else are they giving money to somebody who is essentially a stranger?  

I am not a sexual prude, so I am not talking about guilt for sex based on religious convictions.  I am really taking about the issue of maintaining control of the situation.  If a man has only a week of vacation and goes to agencies, I recommend he spend all that time dating as many women as possible.  Having sex with any one women takes valuable time, she may be trying to lock him in, or even con him, it creates feelings such as guilt, and makes him a vulnerable subject of the rumor mill... in which case the other ladies will back off.  Once he makes a commitment, he can have sex on the second trip with the right lady.  Just a suggestion.  

Some may be interested in the book on prostitution.  It gives some insight into the difficult situation that many women are faced with in Latin America and some insight into which women are more likely to trade sex for luxury (whether through prostitution or a marriage agency) and which women are more likely to be guided by their inner compass and reserve sex for love.  Since, I have a relationship I have met many Colombian woman through my novia and have become aware of their situation.  My novia also has many beautiful women in her family (including several models and a former Miss Barranquilla) and I have met them and learned alot about their situations and the temptations and pressure they face, and something about how they think.  So, my advice is coming from some experience.  

As for sex, women are more likely to have good sex with a man they love, and if a man puts all his resources into finding the right lady.. the good sex is likely to follow.  And Latinas, in particular, will be very affectionate and attentive to the right man.  It’s just a matter of applying some simple rules of common sense.  So, if the sex really is that bad on your second trip (which is not likely if you took care of the important things) then start over.  

A good latina is a gift from heaven.  She will treat you like a king and you will grow to love having her call you “papi”.  I recommend that guys don’t squander valuable time in finding her.  That’s all I have to say about the subject.

 

[Calipro]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Sex and Commitment, posted by valuedcustomer on Oct 20, 2003

Sorry, I thought your post was directed as me.

I'm personally not aware of any guys at any of the marriage agencies that have given a women money because she was having sex with him. If you ask me most seem to be a little bit on the tight wad side. But, I wouldn't doubt that it has happened in the past. I met a guy once that bought a girl a pair of pants and was pretty pissed because he didn't get anything.

You are dead right about the rumor mill. That's why I almost all ways recommend a guy stay at a hotel instead of the agencies. You can over come the rumor mill problem by not having sex at all but that seems a little to drastic to me.

I'm not sure a book could really tell you what women will save sex for true love and which won't. It sounds like a gross generalization at best. But, I would be interested in hearing the temptations and pressures your wife's friends have faced.

I'll tell you about a phenomena that I have run into in Cali that I have never seen anywhere else.

On avenida sexta there are prostitues and they will come right up to you and ask you if you want something or are looking for something. They strike me as hard cold and dirty. And then there are what I call unprofessional prostitues.

If you can get a table close enough to the street you can split a large bottle of wiskey with a friend. A large bottle of Buchanan's will set you back a few pesos but it is worth it. These unprofessional prostitues (as I jokingly call them) will see you sitting with your male friend and ask if they can join you. If you like them you say "sure why not!"
If you can't get a table close enought were people can easly see you from the street don't bother buying the bottle of wiskey. Just tell the doorman (and tip him) you would like some company but no prostitues. So when he sees something nice walk down the street he will direct them your way.
Anyway I have met a number of women this way and some very nice looking. After drinking and dancing the night away, they usually end up in your hotel. I keep waiting for at least one to ask for money but none as of yet has. When I wake up in the morning, I ask myself do I want to see this girl again. If the answer is no, I give the girl 100,000 to 120,000 pesos give her a peck on the cheek and send her on her way (Is that guilt or gratitude?). If the answer is yes. I take her to breakfast, give her my phone number and tell her I'll take her out that night. I have never gotten any complaints either way.

I call these girls unprofessional prostitues because they don't ask for money up front and because I don't really think they would go home with just anybody. But, it is obvious they are looking for something, anything a boyfriend , money or whatever. What does your novia think about this?

[valuedcustomer]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Sex and Commitment, posted by Calipro on Oct 20, 2003

My novia is a costeña, and hence doesn’t know that much about Cali.  Costeñas live on the Atlantic Coast of Colombia whereas Cali is closer to the Pacific Coast.  They are different cultures.  A third culture in Colombia are the mountain people, i.e. those who live in mountain regions like Bogotá and Medellin.  The most popular telenovela in Colombia is “La Costeña y el Cachaco” about a woman from the coast (La costeña) and a man from Bogota (El Cachaco).  One of the underlying tensions of the telenovela is the difference between the cultures of the coast and the mountains and the conflicts it creates between the couple.  There are also further subcultures, like the people from Medellin (paises) are known for being particularly industrious, and since they have a textile industry Medellin is also the modeling and fashion center of Colombia.  I was there a few weeks ago and visited an interactive science museum.  They also have a great museum of Botero sculpture.  Cali is known for being one of the more libertine place of Colombia and is a culture unto itself.  My novia says that the costeña women are the most traditional women of Colombia.  From my experience, I have to agree because she is very attentive to me and when I go to Colombia she is always watching over me to see I am alright, even when she is at work calling several times during the day.  Additionally, costeñas are just as warm and outgoing as the Cali women.  Although my novia lives in Bogota, all of her roomates and most of her friends are costeñas.  They seem to be more comfortable interacting with each other than with people from Bogotá and like to tell jokes about the coast and have fun and fiestas.

[beenthere]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sex and Commitment, posted by valuedcustomer on Oct 21, 2003

Word for word, probably one of the most informative and intelligent posts I've read in a long time on this forum.
It's good to see there are other people on this forum who are interested (and understand) the culture of Colombia.

[JSlo]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sex and Commitme..., posted by beenthere on Oct 21, 2003

I have to agree. It can't be overstated, the importance of learning culture and language. Wish you and your novia the best and thanks for sharing.
JSlo