All who asked-Low Testorone Symptoms

[Zorrowins]

Hi!
If you read my bio, you know I had low testosterone and it destroyed many, many years of my life(quality). So here's the symptoms (1) low metabolism-your body burns energy at a below normal rate, so you often have a slow but stead weight gain. You also lose muscle mass. The elderly quit eating and get very frail(Think of Austowictz) (2) Cronic low grade depression Nothing you can't handle-not suicidal.Very low grade. You tend to overemphasize the negative and deemphasize the positive. Like if something goes wrong(bad Decision on your part) I used to think, I can't do anything right. I would beat myself up mentally. Sort of in my opinion Pete's doing. Everything is his fault(Right!). His wife would really love the right man(Right!). I think his wife has a personality disorder and can not love anybody but herself.(I don't know of course) (3) Occasional anxiety attacts. With me it was a "guilty" feeling like I was 7 years old and stained my mother's brand new carpet. I couldn't get it up and she would be home in 30 minutes! Or sometimes a general but vague feeling of doom. All of these feelings for no reason! I would think-why am I feeling this way? (4)Low Labido(Sexual) issues. I was not exactly a champion in the bedroom. In my case I explained all of the above issues away blaming my obesity(except the anxiety part-then I felt a little nuts).

Treatment-First a simple blood test determines your testosterone level. Any doctor can request it. However, they don't and won't unless you ask for it. Then if it's low get a referral to an endocrinologist(For God's sake don't let your unqulaified GP treat it!). They will then normally do a MRI or cat scan on your pituitary gland(Master Gland that commands hormone secretions) in your brain(Possible tumor growing next to it and that's the first thing that goes haywire-testosterone production). I use patches to regulate my testosterone. I simply put two on my back at night. They then infuse my body with testosterone over the next 24 hours. This also mimics the body's natural secretation. Injections spike it(a real rush) followed by a gradual let down with depression & anxiety again just before the next injection(Every two weeks). I've done both. So I now have the level of a 35 year old male.

Hope this helps. Just get checked!!!

[Pete E]

... in response to All who asked-Low Testorone Symptoms, posted by Zorrowins on Oct 22, 2003

A couple of comments.Most doctors won't treat you unless you are clinically low,below the low end of average.
I forget the units of measurement,but average is 300 -1200.
Unless you uder 300 they don't tghink you have a problem.The people I go to will set you at the high end because hey think thats optimal.Even 1500 they have no problem with.More imortant is to watch the DHT (di hydro testosterone)element of it that is the cause of any problems,like hair loss anperhaps some more serious things.
You can even take testosterone and have it high and propecia to lower the DHT.Also progesterone,one of the hormones women have more of,is now considered good for the prostate.It does not have feminizing affects like estrogen.
Which brings up another point.A certain amount of the testosterone you take can convert to estrogen.So its good to also take Tomoxafin which lowers any estrogen.
AS far as ijections,if you wre to inject pure testosterone you are right,a big surge then a down.But all the injectables now are of the "Depo",mixed with oil that releases over time.One shot will have some lasting effect for up to a month.So injections for me are so much easier and better.I used to use this messy cream,and it didn't reallt get the T where we wanted it,only up to 700 or so.
Another downside.Taking testosterone shuts down you natural produtionof it.Your testicles will shrink and sperm production will shut down.Its been used as a birth control solution for men,But its that or put up with whatever your low level is.every 4months I go of th e T for a month and take HGC(human Chorionic? gonatropin) this stimulates you natural production and the testicles go back to normal.Then off on the T again.
About the heart thing.I have heasrd concerns,heasrd of guys getting hardening of the arteries.I hadn'tbheard it was from the red blood cells,but that might be right.Red blood cells also do alot of possitive things for you.Testosterone actually lowers cholesterol,mine wsent from 225-250 down to 175.But I am concerned there might be a negative effect also.I need to get a heart scan again.Its an MRI type screening where they can see any calcification that is in you arteries.I did it 4 years ago,just one little area of calcification,they said it was minor.Bub they did say it is an  area where problems sometimes occur.I need to have it done again.Costs $500.I wonder if they have such a thing in Colombia?It could cost $50.
It would be a shame do die over what is basically a plumbing problem.So sreening is a great idea.Its not quite
mainstream medicine,although very scientific.I think primarily because insurance companies do not want to have to pay for it.The mainstream method is the stress treadmill
test.They hook you up to an EKG,put you on a treadmill ang get your heart rate up to about 200.If you ALREASDY have a problem it will show on the EKG.One guy I knew died right on the treadmill.Yup,we found the problem.
Another guy passed his treadmill test but developed some symtoms a few months later and had bypass surgury.They told him you could have died.I guess it wasn't so bad when he took the treadmill test of the test didn't pick it up.traditional medicine can be amazingly stupid.doctors are so scared of doing something otherr than what the long accepted practice is.They don't even care if it will work,if its not mainstream they don't want to do it.Anotherr thing with he treadmill tst.Ths little ditz opf a nurse is getting me ready.She picks up this hair clipper and says I need to shave part 0f you chest so the EKG devies will stick.Then she shaves the whole middle of my chest.About 6 inches wide north to south.I looked real stupid with my shirt off for about 6 months.Like an Mohawk.
I do need to get that heart scan though.I will call today.I could be developing a problem and not know it.And it would be like Larry Ellison said when he almost died when the sailboat race off Austrailia ran in to a huge storm.He was thinking "what a stupid way to die".
Again,if anybody wants imformation on Hormone replacement therapy,Palm Springs Life Extensiom Institute, 800 -327-8939.They will send you lots of imformation.Or do a web search.PSLEI was one of the first to do it but there are alot of other clinics that do it now.Avoid any adds for growth hormone that are pills or spray that supposedly increase you natural growth hormone.THey are useless scams.
Also stay clear of the andesterone and DHT except for maybe 50 mg max of DHT.It can kick up your estrogen also.I got a little fat on the pecs from taking massive doses of DHT.Probably liposuction is the only way I will get rid of it.You see these adds even in car magazines  "Steroids ' it says.Off course they can't sell you steroids.Its some BS formula that is probably useless or maybe damaging.Total nonsense.

Pete

[Zorrowins]

... in response to Re: All who asked-Low Testorone Symptoms, posted by Pete E on Oct 22, 2003

Both of these posts were very informative. I would like Pete to tell me how much this treatment costs. I've heard HGH injections are very expensive-$25,000 per year. Is this true? Also do you inject yourelf? I'm going to call the 800 number you left and see if there is an affiliate in the Boston area.

My only disagreement with Jersey Mike is on avoiding soy. I read a book "The Testosterone Syndrom" I believe and the author advocated eating soy based products. He said it does indeed act like estrogen, but only has 1/500th the strength of real estrogen. So soy fills the receptors in your prostrate that estrogen would normally fills and thusly delays and/or prevents prostate cancer and other prostrate problems. He stated eating soy is doublely important if you are overweight because fat procudes estrogen too.

Pete have you ever heard of Selegiline(Eldepryl) which is supose to help repair your pituitary gland and other brain problems, thusly stimulating your own natural production fo testosterone? I've tried to get several doctors to prescribe some for me. But to no avail as this is a non-protcal use of it(Parkinson disease only).

Thanks!

[Jersey Mike]

... in response to Question Re:Excellent Posts from Pete &a..., posted by Zorrowins on Oct 23, 2003

Yeah, I know my comments about soy are fairly controversial and are not part of the mainstream.  But much of the "soy is good for you" message is coming from the agricultural lobbyists who have a strong financial interest in increasing soy consumption.

My personal favorite website is:
www.t-mag.com

(A free site but requires sign-in to view)  The site has lots of no BS info on weight training, sports nutrition, and provides unapologetic info on steroids and testosterone replacement for intelligent people who wish to think for themselves.  They have a very negative take on soy that men should read and understand, and then make up their own minds.

Do a search on soy - several articles with medical research footnotes are available.  There is a mounting body of evidence that men (and perhaps women as well) should not take soy-based products.

BTW, there are documented cases of vegetarian women who ate large amounts of soy as their primary protein source, and have had their menstrual cycles disrupted by the soy isoflavones.  Apparently, the soy caused a hormonal condition/response that was similar to pregnancy in these women.  Is this something that men want to be eating?  Until I know more about it, I will avoid soy products.

[Pete E]

... in response to Question Re:Excellent Posts from Pete &a..., posted by Zorrowins on Oct 23, 2003

Selegeline.Yes I take that to.Plus adrenal extract,thyroid,T2,another form of thyroid,pregnenolone and progesterone.Plus testosterone,growth hormone and tomaxofin.
When I cycle off the testosterone I take HCG and Clomid to get my natural tesosterone back up.The progesterone is more recent.I have  a high PSA count for 2 or 3 yeasrs.They have done 2 prostate biopsies,no cancer,but I do have prostatitus,and imflamation of the prostate that will cause the PSA to go up.PSA can be a sign of cancer,but also a sign of smething else,even an infection of the prostate.I had that once and psa went from 8 to 23 in one month.The doctor said no way its cancer,it wouldn't change that fast.Cipro took care of but it took about a month of it to do the job.They gave me this progesterone by another name,I foget what it was.Then I read that progesterone will help,and then foud out that was what thery were already giving me.
In addition I have either ulcerative colitis or chrons disease,they have neve been able to tell me which.They fairly recently started giving me predisone,a powerfull healing steroid.It did wonders for the problem,now they are phasing me off that because of side effects.For that condition I also take cipro,asacol and pureothol.The last being a drug that lowers your immune systyem.I don't like taking it but I didn't wan't surgery either.
All of the drugs for the ulcerative colitus are covered under my insurance and prescribed by mainstream doctors.The others I pay for myself.Its probably $200 a month not counting the growth hormone.
The growth hormone costs $100 a week for 10 internatinal units.8 IU would be $80 a week,thats a more typical dose.These prices are if you pre pay for a year.A 12 week  prepay on 10 IU costs $140 a week.Its gotten cheaper a little in the last 6 years I have been using it  off and on.A patent by the drug company that produces it was suposed to expire a couple of years ago but I guess they have been able to stall that.When that happens I think the price will drop at least 50%.Before this company came up with growth hormone they used to ge  it from the pituatries of cadavers,mostlyt aborted fetesus.There were big problems with that form of it.People got brain tumors because the cancer was in the HGH source.I think thats what killed Lyle Alzado.Other than him I know of no fatalities from steroids or growth hormone but there were others I think from the olod form of growth hormone.
Mainstream doctors will give you none of this except in cases of an extreme deficiency.PSLEI will.They are far from mainstream but licenced medical doctors.I can't find the 800 number right now,I put it in a previous post.There regular number is 760-327-8939.They will send you lots of imformation.
Most if not all of this stuff is available on the black market over the internet.I buy some of it there because in some cases its much cheaper.You can get about anthing but hard drugs.Probably 20 different types of steroids.Its illegal to buy it that way but I never had a problem other than customs seizing 2 shipments.They send you a letter would you like to claim it?No,thank you.The best sources appear to be offshore but ship from within the US.
Oh,the growth hormone you inject with a small needle just under  the skin,real easy.The testosterone you inject right in to the muscle,I use the buttocks.Tried the thigh but it made it too sore.You use at least a 1" needle with a large diameter, like 22 G,whatever that is.The testosterone is in oil and injets very slowly.It takes a little guts to just jam that needle in but it usually doesn't hurt much.
Did I cover everything?

Pete

[Jersey Mike]

... in response to Re: Question Re:Excellent Posts from Pet..., posted by Pete E on Oct 23, 2003

Pete,
I wish that I could find where I read it, but I remember reading that Lyle Alzado died of an exceedingly rare form of cancer that is almost only found in HIV/AIDS patients.  Alzado was an admitted intravenous drug abuser.

I know that he speculated that steroid use was the source of his brain cancer before he died, but this is unsubstantiated.    It is more likely that he wished to avoid the stigma of having AIDS.  Unfortunately, it has become an accepted fact that his cancer was brought on by steroids, and I do not know that this is true.

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Question Re:Excellent Posts from..., posted by Jersey Mike on Oct 24, 2003

It was a brain tumor he died from,so I just made that guess that he might of used the older form of HGH that was known o cause brain tumors.But the new lab created version has been around awhile,10 years plus,maybe 20,so that may not be it.But there was absolutely nothing that indicated it was steroids other than what Lyle said,he took a certain steroid that caused the problem.
Interestingly enough he was interviewed about this by Maria Shriver,Arnolds wife.She even replayed an old interview where he adamately denied using steroids,she  asked him,why did you lie to us?Of course Arnold was a big time steroid user,you couldn't get to where he was without it.I bet that has been a subject of discussion at his house and I thought they would dig it up during the campain but they didn't.
Following bodybuilding I understood about steroids before the public ever became aware.Somewhere about the mid 60's the guys all just got huge.It was not new training techniques.There is not much new there in many years.The only thing of significance is its now recognized it takes the body at least 5 days to recover from a hard workout so you should not hit a particular muscle group more often than that.That was the most significant thing I ever leared.Back in the work out every 2 days era if I worked out really hard I would feel weaker in 2 days,not stronger.Dave Draper was the first one to have the kind of mass that steroids can give you.
There is a guy who owns a gym in Las Vegas,Chet Yorton,former Mr America and Mr Universe..He never used steroids and although built very well he doesn't have that steroid mass.He actually beat Arnold in a competittion when Arnold first came here,primarily because he really worked his legs and Arnold had neglected his,just big upper Body.I worked out in his Gym one time and met him.I was tempted to ask him about steroids.Later I learned where he was at with it,adamently opposed to them.I would have got a real lecture I'm sure.
The current champion Bodybuilders are even more huge and cut up than Arnold ever was.On a whole different level again,guys like Ronny Coleman,several times Mr olympia.Just lots more drugs of course.And all of this was milked for money by Joe Weider,who talked about his secret training methods while showing you alll these guys on steroids.They went through an era of denial,followed by a brief era of truthfullness,which got them so much heat its back to the denial.

Pete

[lswote]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Question Re:Excellent Posts ..., posted by Pete E on Oct 24, 2003

Pete, do you like how the current top bodybuilders look?  Some of them look so freaky now, I can't see what the attraction is anymore.  In my opinion, Arnold perhaps typified the best of what you could get with a steroid enhanced body, more mass and definition without the grotesque look. I saw this recent picture of a guy who injected himself with some kind of oil that helped him get 28 inch arms.  Used to be that even 28 inch thighs were unusual, but 28 inches arms look completely stupid.  I used to wish I could look like the bodybuilders, but now so many of them look like hulk-sized freaks that I have no envy whatsoever.

[Pete E]

... in response to Total off topic, posted by lswote on Oct 24, 2003

Bruce,
Yes they have gotten more freaky.Arnold was big,but these guys Have such definition and vascularuty(all the blood vessle apparent).
Thats the problem with drugs,you just get in a competition to see who can take the most.
But,on the other side of the aisle is the physicians desk reffence which says steroids have no benefit in athletic performance.40 lbs more muscle doesn't help?? All this drug controversy,like the new one now that was designed to avoid detection.All for something that doesn't even work??Its political,say its useless if you don't like it.But also even alot of doctors didn't know the truth.THey thought it was all water gain.Well muscle is probably 60% water.It works,adds muscle big time.

Pete

[Jersey Mike]

... in response to Total off topic, posted by lswote on Oct 24, 2003

Iswote,
I completely agree - these guys look weird now, whereas they used to look healthy.  Funny thing is that for most of the year, they look even worse - the mags only show them in "contest shape" when they diet down.

I admit that back when I was in college in the late 70's, I played Div 1A football and did a few cycles to bring up my weight.  (This is before they started treating steroids as a controlled substance and the stuff was a lot easier to get and cheaper.)  We did a fraction of what is used by these guys today, and we were careful to cycle off.  Blew up like a balloon though - gained about 30 lbs. in about 2 months.  Of course, back then the doctors' standard line was that steroids don't work - it's only a placebo effect.  Yeah, right.

Today, I still lift (more powerlifting than bodybuilding) but do not use anything aside from supplements like protein powders and creatine.  But I am very open to the idea of testosterone replacement as I age to remain as energetic and vibrant as possible, and to keep up my quality of life.

[Zorrowins]

... in response to Re: Question Re:Excellent Posts from Pet..., posted by Pete E on Oct 23, 2003

It's encouraging to meet a fellow traveller that's procative in trying to live life to the fullest! Now a couple of sidebars (1) Chrons disease-I read 2 to 3 grams(20-30 tablets) of fish oil helps. I also saw a show about an Italian treatment. As you know Chron's is an autoimmune disease. In other words your own immune system attacks yourself. So the researchers gave people an intestinal parasite that their immune system can destroy in 2 months or so. Guess what- they had absolutely no symtoms of Chron's until the parasite was destroyed. Then they simply drank another parasite. Think of the US Army(you're immune system) guarding the US border. Then we are invated by Russia. So all the troops are called off the Border and go after the Russians(much greater threat). Same deal! (2) For prostate problems try Saw Palmetto and another additive from an African plant. Also Soy products might help as I already discussed in an earlier post.

[lswote]

... in response to To Pete-Some Interesting Information &am..., posted by Zorrowins on Oct 23, 2003

Hmmm, very interesting.  My peripheral neuropathy is similar to Chron's disease.  My immune system is destroying the outer sheathing on the sensory nerves in my feet, so the nerves are slowly dying from exposure.  It is a very painful condition and of course when the nerves are completely dead I will have no feeling at all in the affected areas (fortunately it is only affecting the sensory nerves, not the motor nerves, so my feet still work okay, just lack sensation and have a lot of pain).  So far in the 5 years I have had the condition, the neurologists that number over 20 now have found no reason for the condition.  Most often peripheral neuropathy is caused by diabetes or liver disease and sometimes heavy metal or pesticide exposure but I have been tested as clean for all those possible reasons and a boatload more and the doctors are pretty much closing in on the cause being genetic, i.e. my genes have programmed my body to attack itself.  Really sucks, let me tell you.  I went from being a physical powerhouse to unable to mow my own lawn in 5 short years. I probably should be a little more stoic about the whole thing and a little less whiny, as I have much to be thankful about in life, but my self-image was really centered around my physical body, and I just don't have the same self-confidence about myself now that my body isn't what it used to be.

[Pete E]

... in response to To Pete-Some Interesting Information &am..., posted by Zorrowins on Oct 23, 2003

Very interesting about the parasite thing.Hmm.
Theres got to be a cure,someday.It seems like too simple a problem.
Maybe one of the purposes of my venting was to get that imformation.
How do I look it up?

Thanks,

Pete

[Zorrowins]

... in response to Re: To Pete-Some Interesting Information..., posted by Pete E on Oct 24, 2003

Hi1
I only caught a TV show about this "distracting" the immune system. I know there was a segment on an autoimmune problem that had something to do with the blood system(Lupus maybe?). I also beieve it was on PBS like Nova? I only really rermember the Chrons disease treatment because I know a couple of people with Chrons. But they were also injecting people with something too. One of the points they made was our environment is too sterile. That many of these autoimmune diseases are unknown in Third World Countries. That our immune system is all charged up with nothing to do! At any rate the whole point of the show was how giving our immune system an invader was very effective at removing the "troops" from attacking our own body to going after the invader. And until the invader was destroyed these people were pretty much symtom free. Of course the"troops" resumed their attack on our own body after the invader was destroyed. Not a cure. So they just went back for another treatment.

[Jersey Mike]

... in response to Re: All who asked-Low Testorone Symptoms, posted by Pete E on Oct 22, 2003

I have been doing research on the subject of testosterone ("T") in order to try to slow down my own natural aging process.  Rather than aging "gracefully", I intend to fight the inevitable and attempt to keep my own levels as high as possible for as long as possible, and I remain open to the option of T therapy in the future.

There are some ways to enhance your body's own natural production of testosterone for those who may not qualify for full T replacement therapy.  None of these will substitute for  actual T replacement therapy, but may help slow the natural reduction of T levels.  BTW, your body's T levels vary during the day (highest in the AM) and also from day-to-day based many different factors.

First, things that contribute to suppress your natural T levels:  
Alcohol is probably the #1 external factor for reducing your T level.  Stress and lack of sleep also are shown to drastically reduce T.  Chronic overexertion/overtraining from exercise can reduce T levels, although it has been shown by some researchers that T levels will rise briefly after intense exercise.  (Surprisingly, it has been shown that in-season competitive athletes may have lower T levels than non-competitive couch potatos, probably for this reason.)  A low-fat diet is known to reduce T levels, and it is believed that Atkins-type diets are better for T levels in men.  And men should AVOID SOY and soy-based products, which contain certain isoflavones that mimic the effects of estrogen in the body.

Loss of excess body fat has been shown to raise natural T levels in both males and females (perhaps this is why both men and women who lose fat want sex more often?)  A diet that is difficient in zinc and/or magnesium has been shown by research to contribute to low T levels - try a product called ZMA.  (ZMA is made by the same company, BALCO Labs, that is being investigated for steroid production, and Barry Bonds has been subpoened as a witness, among others.  ZMA is sold by several different companies and distribution sources.)  ZMA has been shown to be effective ONLY for those who have below-normal T levels, but can raise t levels by up to 30% in these individuals according to the research.  Avoid excess low-intensity exercise - instead try short burst of resistance exercises (weightlifting) which will improve your lean mass to total body weight ratio.

One of the worst sources of info on the subject are mainstream medical professionals.  Most conventional doctors are so far behind the curve on the research it's pathetic.  I predict that T replacement therapy will become widely popular for both men AND women over the next 10 years.  (Women naturally have about 5-10% of the T levels that men have, but some forward-thinking medical professionals are beginning to prescribe T therapy for women with no sex drive and for those who are suffering from osteoporosis, and to generally counter the effects of aging.  Interestingly, estrogen therapy for post-menopausal women, which had been heralded as a panacea until recently, has been shown to contribute to a higher incidence of heart attacks and strokes, and contributes to osteoporosis.)

A writer/researcher/bodybuilder with some good info on the subject:
www.johnberardi.com