Relayed post by JF

[Pete E]

A friend of mine has been reading here but has not been able to ge a password to post,so he wantedme to post this for him regarding my situation.
This guy knows me and Rocio personally although we have not spent alot of time together.

Pete

                                                        Negligence fraud

The message I get from the situation is this: In law there are at least 2 kinds of fraud, the malicious intentional kind, and the negligence kind. Negligence fraud is for example where info is held back by one party which, had it been known by the other party, would have allowed the other party to avoid some kind of injury or damage, in your case financial and emotional damage, and time you can never get back. I believe your wife started with the best of intentions, and I believe she tried more or less as best she could during the relationship to have a better relationship and desired the same. I believe she had in varying degrees real gratitude for the time, effort, money, and love/devotion spent on her and her child, gratitude which she or others confused with love. I believe she confused the sacrifice of leaving her native country with love ("Look how much I left behind for you"). I believe she confused various forms of sacrifice and/or marital duties (cleaning the house, sex, whatever) as being love (which I suppose could be but not in the rich, emotional sense you think it should be). Finally, I believe she had real inner conflict over things not being better with you, and of course a lot of denial. BUT, at SOME POINT she had a responsibility to communicate in a straightforward manner that she was not attracted to you, not in love with you emotionally, or whatever was an accurate description of the facts for her. We can all argue when that point should have been, but that point arrived some time in the past and she said nothing, or just as accurately, she dodged and obfuscated and communicated in indirect ways. (But, of course she communicated much more honestly in body language). The lesson is that we all have to set good boundaries so that our time, effort, money, love and devotion spent on another person isn't wasted endlessly. If the relationship is in trouble and the other party wants patience, we have to nail down the specifics of that patience. What should I be patient for? What is going to change? How long do you expect me to wait? Otherwise, one could wait forever because the other person is engaging in the passivity and denial of negligence fraud.

[Pete E]

... in response to Relayed post by JF, posted by Pete E on Oct 22, 2003

Yes,there is fruad or deception by witholding imformation.
She never ever has fessed up about anything or even said how she feels about anything.Its been mostly denial of a problem.Followed actions very inconsistent with there not being a problem.
But you give her more credit than me for how long her intentions might have been good.Maybe,initially.Later.No way.

Pete

[jim c]

... in response to Answer, posted by Pete E on Oct 22, 2003

Well I am glad I am leaving for Cartagena, so I won't have to read anymore of this crap. Look its over!!!! Assigning percentages of blame with the assistance of other burned out angry men will not change your future. You are,as I am sixty years old. When will you stop looking for who is responsible for your life. I'll fill you in,   YOU ARE!!

It is your responsibility to move on or are you looking for a reason to be nasty.maybe there is someone.Whatwill knowing that do for you
I had a friend who had the same obsession problem as you I used to tell him to go hitchhiking so someone new could hear his woes. If there is no one else, then whose fault is it? Your life is yours and should be based on your decisions not on hers, she only passed thru and you are still here. So do yourself a favor and make decisions based on your future and leave the past alone. jc

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Answer, posted by jim c on Oct 22, 2003

Jim,
I agree the post you responded to was crap.I was making her wrong there,definetly.
Some guys might have read that to think you said my whole story telling here is crap.You didn't say that,even though I know you do not approve of being so public.
And I know I'm responsible for my life.I can't change anybody else but I can change me.And your post below was really timely,the one about accepting what you can't change and changing what you can and knowing the difference.
I talked to a friend from Colombia,a Colombiano,just before your post.He held out a little ray of hope that it might be fixable.If that was the case then I would be very embarased
saying so much here.I only did that when I thought all hope was lost.
Part of me thinks you are righ about not posting.TThe other part wanted to tell the story.And I did get alot of support that feels good to me.
I talked with my wife this morning.Maybe 15 miniutes.But it might be more talking than we have ever done,actually talking about what was really going on.It really bothers her that I posted.As she was telling me that I was thinking maybe you are right.
I don't have a problem with you at all.I was even thinking he might be so pissed off at me I can't look him up if I get to Cartegena.
I do appreciate all thoughtfull feedback,and I think yours was.

Pete

[Ralph]

... in response to Re: Answer, posted by jim c on Oct 22, 2003

If you don't want to read it. . . . . .don't. Bueller has a friend that might have just learned a valuable lesson from Pete. It takes guts to post ones private matters and mistakes online.

Pete has always been more open than most. That is how he is. You are more private. Fine, but you will never change Pete's personality.

If Pete wants to vent, get feedback, post his story to help others, or just think out loud. . . . . . . .let him.

[Bueller]

... in response to grumpy, posted by Ralph on Oct 23, 2003

...Rocío is well aware of this board and can come refute him anytime.

[jim c]

... in response to Re: Answer, posted by jim c on Oct 22, 2003

Lord grant me the power to change the things I can change. the peace to accept what I cannot change and the wisdom to know the difference between the two.

[JunFan]

... in response to Re: Re: Answer, posted by jim c on Oct 22, 2003

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

[DOMINGUIN]

... in response to Re: Re: Answer, posted by jim c on Oct 22, 2003


jimc:

Lord, grant me the blessings of a clear mind and fast legs, so the next time I have the hots for a a female lawyer, I will like run like hell in the opposite direction.

That was you, wasn't it? And we all heard about it.

Pete is down and he needs to vent, if he wants to vent some more, we can decide for ourselves if we want to hear it.  Yes we're all responsible for our lives and the mistakes that we make, but only a grumpy bastard (that's not a personal insult, just an observation) piles on when a decent man is down.

Dominguin

[Red Clay]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Answer, posted by DOMINGUIN on Oct 22, 2003

Agreed.

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Answer, posted by DOMINGUIN on Oct 22, 2003

I really appreciate you sticking up for me.But I don't feel Jim piled on me.I am really considering what he had to say,especially his second post.
I am just reconsidering eveything right now.And I appreciate you guys letting me vent but I'm a little burnt out on it myself right now.Like did I really need to do that? I guess I thought so.
I do really appreciate all the support I have recieved.

Thanks,

Pete

[burbuja2]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Answer, posted by DOMINGUIN on Oct 22, 2003

Dominguin: What you say is correct.  However, I don't think JimC was piling on Petey at all.  In Jim's straight-from-the-shoulder manner of communication, he is only trying to help.  Although his manner may be gruff, his advice is sound.  I think you misunderstood the intent of his post.

[DOMINGUIN]

... in response to Let's Extinguish this Flame Before It St..., posted by burbuja2 on Oct 22, 2003


Well, if jimc takes offense then here is an apology to him in advance.

But when he writes: "I'm tired of reading this crap", and implying that Pete is a burned out angry old man,  personally I think its over the line. And I don't happen to think gruffness is a positive personality trait. We all use this board as an outlet to express ourselves and some of us do it differently then others.  But as the point has been made more then once, it doesn't take much more effort to express yourself politely

Its real easy to sit in front of our computer and anonymously write: "Come on get over it, move on with your life, when that person is going through a terrible time.  As far as I know from the board, jimc went through at least one divorce, I also went through one divorce as did many of the men on the board and I think that most of us would agree that we all get through it differently and in different lengths of time. Firing off a "straight from the shoulder" email that tis time to move on is not helpful.    

Jim's email was a self directed prayer about receiivng serenity, perhaps it might have been more effective if it was about another often neglected Christian virtue--charity toward others.

Dominguin

[jim c]

... in response to Re: Let's Extinguish this Flame Before I..., posted by DOMINGUIN on Oct 22, 2003

Look Dom

  There is nothing anonymous about me. I am not a sniper like some here.  I have more respect for Pete than you may think and have. There are plenty of well wishing syncophants here to offer him milk and cookies and a there, there as they pat him on the head. Pete knows exactly where I am coming from. He is presently hurting and taking tangents to avoid the terrible reality that he cared for some one who may not have cared for him equaly. Obsessing on the tale of the past will not let him find closure. Trying to find a reason ( the possibility of another man ) will not make him feel better. Nor will a buck up little camper from you.

   Pete and I have had this discussion before about the value of reinforcement from strangers comments on events they know nothing about. You were not there and either was I, so my opinion is to move on, for as loud as his lament may be, she may have even greater reason to leave him. What happened between them is their business and now that he is hurting, he is breaching that contract even though he knows better. I am sure he got my message and understands it better than you. I for one would enjoy his friendship for he has a natural tendency to be a moral and honest man without a hidden agenda.

 As to my past yes I have commented  on my relationships  six or seven times in the three years I have been on this board. Some of the info was helpfull to others and anecdotal as to what I have experienced, but I have never sat here crying in my beer writing a soap opera and asking for solutions to my problems or condemnation for the mean nasty latina who jilted me. Pete is not the first to burn his bridges on this list and won't be the last. You lays you money down and takes your chances. So don't ask for absolution let alone advice, if you didn't listen in the first place.  jim c

[lswote]

... in response to Re: Re: Let's Extinguish this Flame Befo..., posted by jim c on Oct 23, 2003

Jim, I think you are unfair to say "Pete and I have had this discussion before about the value of reinforcement from strangers comments on events they know nothing about", after all every friend starts out as a stranger to us.  It is the process of give and take that makes us friends.  Granted there are a few posters here on this board who don't see the same rules that are applied in life toward friendship and people in general, applicable to this forum and act like horses asses or give advice that even a 10 year old could do a better job of, but many posters are thoughtful and considerate and I think you are just being a big grouch about the whole thing in many ways.  You definitely need to get to Cartagena!

I think the one thing you are overlooking or perhaps don't see as any value in this situation is the need to vent for someone in a difficult situation.  I suspect that nothing being said on this forum in response to Pete's posts will cause him to be in worse circumstances than if he kept things to himself and more than likely a few posters have enlightened him as to his possibilities and I am also pretty sure it has helped his mental state to be able to have a place to speak his mind.

Regarding whether he has an obligation to keep matters between himself and his wife private, I would say that might have been true earlier in the marriage, but I think his wife has invalidated any obligation in that area by refusing to resolve matters between them and forcing him to take other means to resolve the situation.  Trust, when looked at from a legal perspective, i.e. when legally trying to determine when trust is violated to the extent there might be legal recompense, is usually measured by both parties actions, not just the person who is being accused of the violation of trust.  Thus if trust is broken by one party, the other party can not be held accountable if also breaking the trust.  Rocio, not only broke the trust in tangible ways such as failure to render marital services, but in intangible ways such as mockingly substituting Pete's name in a song about a foolish romantic partner or laughing about him with her friends while he was within earshot.

I think Pete can be faulted in his marriage, there were decisions he made or didn’t make that affected where he is today.  His wife, while immoral in her decisions and deceptions, was no diabolical manipulator who blindingly controlled the person she was deceiving, but rather Pete chose to believe the best of her when most of us probably wouldn’t have.  But as I have said before, I think the world would be a better place if more people had the kind of trust that Pete has and while not agreeing with all his decisions, I certainly will not fault his character for the choices he made.

I think when Pete can actually take some actions to move on and get out of the situation, such as move to Latin America, then it would be in his best interests to put Rocio, and this whole mess, as far behind him as possible.  But right now he is not free to get out of the circumstances and is still having to face Rocio on a daily basis and still deal with the pain and rejection of the situation and I think this forum is invaluable to him in helping give him the strength to deal with it.  What is more, it is a real eye opener to many people about the flip side of the "marriage to a Latina" coin.