Colombia is Dangerous

[Traveller]

Well, if all goes well, I am off to Miami to take a job. One of the perks is I get to live in house in South Beach.
I am leaving Cali not because of the danger or anything like that, but just the apathy of Colombians of doing business. Business and work ethics just suck here. I had example after example written on this board, but the power suddenly went off and I lost all that, but maybe when I get an itch, I'll write them down again.
Yes, yes, Colombia. Danger. We have all heard it a million times. And a million times more after that. No, don't minimize it, be aware of it, but don't dwell on it. Once again, it's not that bad here at all.
Take into consideration this: As of 2003, there are roughly 6,323,726,626 individual human beings on this planet. Take into account that more than likely ALL of those people will be dead in 100 years. If you go by general natural lifespans, 151,780 people die everyday worldwide. That's 55.4 million a year. This does not include, bombs, accidents, illnesses, infant mortality rates, murders, meteors, wars, alcohol poisoning, drownings, shark attacks, starvation, serial killers, vending machines falling on you, or any one of a million other things that will kill you. So, the original estimate is probably quite a bit higher than 151,780. But, there are roughly 354,261 births everyday, so we even out. Anyways, if you take all those deaths everyday, every year for that matter, how many of those who die are Americans in Colombia? If there are deaths, what is that percentage for the day or the year? Stats say you will more than likely be killed by something else than a bomb or terrorist attack in Colombia.
Don't know just bored felt like writing.

[Michael B]

... in response to Colombia is Dangerous, posted by Traveller on Oct 14, 2003

50,000+ campesinos blockcading the roads, burning bacarriades in the streets, La Paz out of gasoline and almost out of food, tanks guarding the presidential residence, the army shooting into crowds (60 dead in the last three days). And the ironic thing, in the midst of all this, almost every picture has two or three Indian women, with their brightly colored dresses and derby hats, just sitting there, as though nothing was going on around them

[Traveller]

... in response to Colombia is Dangerous, posted by Traveller on Oct 14, 2003

One small silly fact. I have lived in Cali for 2 years 3 months. So, that is about 820 days. That means that I have outlived, more or less, 124,459,600 people worldwide. That's roughly 3 times the population of Colombia.

[DavidMN]

... in response to Colombia is Dangerous, posted by Traveller on Oct 14, 2003

I, for one, would appreciate it if you have the time someday to reconstruct your comments. From some of your earlier posts it sounded like you were 'in clover' in the sense of self-employed plus a steady govt check, young, good looking, in one of the chica capitals of the world.

I read about the resourceful and scrappy Colombian entrepreneurs who make a living in a very difficult environment, but apparently that's not the type you encountered. Could it have something to do with the fashion/modeling/entertainment industries? Lots of egos and high maintenance people there, I imagine. Anyway, best of luck in your new venture.

David

[Traveller]

... in response to Re: Colombia (moving out), posted by DavidMN on Oct 14, 2003

Actually no. The Modeling stuff is pretty lucrative. But, all accounts that made money were from magazines, websites,  and the TV show. I did pretty well with that. But, I can make more money working full time for the show.
You aren't going to make dime in modeling domestically. People just don't pay for any modeling stuff. It's incredible. I had a model who got a job in Bogota for Bogota Fashion. They would pay for plane ticket and nothing else. No food, lodging, nothing. The clubs whenever they have a fashion show in the club, the club doesn't pay the girls anything, even though they charge a cover for the show. Not a dime of it goes to the girls.

[DavidMN]

... in response to Re: Re: Colombia (moving out), posted by Traveller on Oct 14, 2003

Thanks for the response and for the extensive comments below. Interesting about Ecuador and its relative openness to investment vs. Colombia. Those infuriating, pointless, Catch-22 bureaucratic obstacles can make the sanest person go nuts. I wonder if some of it has to do with Colombia arriving relatively late to the game? I believe they had a big revamp of their constitution in 1991 and prior to that time they never allowed much foreign investment at all. Then with the recession and slow growth since 1999 the world's not exactly been beating down their door to invest.

I had to laugh about your "boobs too big" comment. I've seen some young Colombian women that are SO out of proportion they look ridiculous. It's my understanding that a lot of would-be models need to fit a certain height/proportion scale if they are to have any hope of moving into high end runway work. Your story seems to confirm that.

Regards,

David

[cancunhound]

... in response to Re: Colombia (moving out), posted by DavidMN on Oct 14, 2003

I believe many of the issues dealing with the hastles of investments/etc..  in Colombia stems from the drug issue, they've got to control laundering or it would really get out of hand.  Could be worse - have you checked out the scene right now in Bolivia?  Seems like the majority of the public doesn't want anything to do with exportation of the massive natural gas reserves to the US (I wouldn't recommend a visit there right now).

[Jeff S]

... in response to Colombia is Dangerous, posted by Traveller on Oct 14, 2003

I had an uncle survive D-Day and the Battle of the Bulge and come home to tell about it. In the mid 1950s, he was killed falling off a tractor plowing a field on the family farm. Does this mean that rural North Carolina in 1955 was more dangerous than Omaha Beach on June 6th? It sure was for my uncle. I guess it just means that when your number is up, well as Clint Eastwood said in Unforgoven, "We all got it comin', kid."

- Jeff

[zack]

... in response to Colombia is Dangerous, posted by Traveller on Oct 14, 2003

Hi traveller, I didn't think you'd be back this soon, and I sure didn't expect you to return with another post about the Colombian danger level since you are so sick of defending it. But good to hear from you. Your post sums it up well.

Maybe I didn't read enough posts, but were you trying to start a business in Colombia? I'm assuming the work ethic is bad there because the economy has been bad for so long that they developed this "I don't care" mindset.

You are moving to South Beach, Florida? I've never been there, but I hear it is the party capital of the U.S.A., as I'm sure you know.  Probably the closest thing to Colombia from a pretty woman standpoint. Good luck.

Zack

[Traveller]

... in response to Re: Colombia is Dangerous, posted by zack on Oct 14, 2003

Yeah, I will be spliting my time between Miami and the Bahamas. Got a job with a TV reality show.
The work ethic is bad for several reasons. For example: Waitresses. You usually do not get service because people do not tip here, so there is no incentive to give good service. Or, the tip is included in the bill, once again, no incentive to give good service.
Another example: Corruption. You get hassled by the cops because you have a couple of clients finishing up drinks at closing. You are effectively closed, no music, outsdie lights off, bills are paid, you're closed. The cops try to fine you (try to get a payoff) for violating the law for hours of business, but yet right behind the wall is a club with the same license as your bar and they have over 100 people and the music is booming right through the wall. There is no mistaking they are open. But, they pay the cops off, so the cops don't hassle them.
Another example: Trust. I could go on and on about this one, but I'll go with one. A while back I had a house in Arboleda. I gave the maid money to buy chicken. She bought 6 lbs worth. The next night I went in to cook some ot htat chicken and 5 lbs of it was gone. I asked where did it go. She told me that a guest we had ate it. Well, for one thing, the guy was vegetarian, and two, I don't think the guy would eat 5 lbs of chicken in 16 hours. Turns out she took it home.
Another example: Initiative: Once again, I could go on for awhile about this, but here's a few. I told my manager to keep calling this place because we left mirrors that were installed at our old location. The new management was suppose to pay us for them. I forgot about it and when i remembered, about 2 weeks later, I asked the manager what happened with the mirriors. Make a long story short, she never called. Even if you make them write stuff down, it won't get done unless you constantly looking over their shoulder.
I gave my manager money to pay my phone bill 3 weeks ago. Well, my phone gets shut off. Why? Because she waited for the third notice before she paid it. Only problem, the third notice is the one they shut the phone off with. Instead of just taking the second notice and paying it, she waited for the third notice.
I used to have another manager. Every month, I sent her money to pay the utilities. After we decided to move locations she wrote and told me she needed the money for the last three months of utilities. Till this day she has no explanation where the money I sent her went. Suppose this one can go under trust.
Another example: Organization: When I was in Ecuador I needed a 30 day extension on my passport due to the stupidity of the Colombian Consulate (there is an entirely different story). Anyways, I went down to immigration, paid my 85 cents and spent my 5 minutes getting the extension. No problem. In Colombia, I needed the exact same thing. It took me three weeks and around 60,000 pesos to get an extension.
My VISA. Most countries down here, it's not a big deal. Ecuador for example, you can get an Investor VISA for $1400 plus a $200 fee. The paperwork is fairly straight forward because I have friends in Ecuador who have done the paperwork themselves. Plus, the $1400 is a bank bond and it gains interest as long as you keep the money in the bank and your VISA is good until you pull that money out.You can get an Investor Visa in under a month. You can own property, get a job, open a business, etc with an Ecuadorian Investor VISA.
Colombia on the other hand......I really don't think they want foreign business. It took me over a year and countless bucks. I had all the paperwork that was required. Ten the counsulate would say, "Oh, the law changed, you need this now." Ok, I get what they request. Then they would say, "Oh, you need this." This went on and on. This is a good example of the stupidity They wanted me to fly to North Carolina to get an Apostille for my CALIFORNIA police report. Why? Because, they Hague agreement was signed there in 1961. Other than that information, they could give me no other information as to why I had to go to N.C. to get an Apostille for a CA. Police report. Ok. I get my Apostille from California not N.C. and they accpeted it. I asked them if I had everything this time. "Oh ,sure, sure. No problem you have everything. Come on in and we'll get your VISA." I fly to Quito and show up at the Consualte. The Deputy consualte says, "Oh, you need this." I forget what it was, but I ask why didn't you tell me before I came to get this document? "The law changed: When? I forget the exact date but it changed before I even started the process to get the VISA. Over a year ago and he was just now telling me it changed. Basically, the consulate in Quito were a bunch of morons who had no idea how to do their job. I threatned to go to the Colombian Ambasador and pretty much I got the VISA that day. Unorganized.
Another example: Being on time. Everyone knows that Colombians are notorious for being late. But yet, in schools, they teach students that when they have an interview, to be on time, but invariably, they aren't. For example, I had a model who had a job for 650,000 pesos for about 2 hours worth of photos. She showed up two hours late. No apology, no thing. I asked why she was late. Just the common shrug of the shoulders.
Another Example: Decision making process. I had another model who was going to be paid 2.5 million pesos to show up for an audition in the Bahamas. I just needed her VISA info. She didn't show up for the meeting. Why? She said she had to go to a casting for a runway show that didn't pay a dime. One one hand, she had a sure thing plus a chance to be the host of a TV show that paid $4000 a month for the 8 month season and you get a temporary residence VISA to live in the Bahamas. On the other hand, you had a casting for a 45 minute fashion show that didn't pay you anything.   Which would you choose? Exactly. In the end she didn't even get in the fasion show. Boobs were too big.
Colombians don't realize that when they adobt these practices it hurts their country and their economy.
The above examples are just a very few examples I have experienced with trying to do business in Colombia. I could go on for another 10 pages easily.
So, there are a few examples I am choosing to go back to the States.

[Jamie]

... in response to Re: Re: Colombia is Dangerous, posted by Traveller on Oct 14, 2003

Hello Traveler

I can appreciate your difficulties in working with Colombians; I suspect you could write a book worth of examples as could I. Let me tell you my first experience with the Colombian work ethic. I was taking my Manager at the time to Cartangena for some personal translation service. She had a female friend with her and I paid for the food and entertainment and stayed at one of the better high - rise hotels. I was on my own for the most part, so what she was getting was a paid vacation. After our first dinner I asked her to make an important phone call for me. We both then went to our hotel rooms. A few hours later, I went to her room because she had not called me with the results of the phone call. Her friend opens the door and I see my manger laying on the bed eating food from the snack bar and watching T.V. I asked her if she made the phone call and she points to the phone next to the bed and says the phone is broken. I looked across the room to a table with another phone and asked did you try this phone? She says no. She gets up and makes the phone call but due to the late hour is not able to reach the attended party.

I am cautious about speaking in generalities, but my experience with Colombians who have worked for me (and I hire college graduates)  is that there is no obstacle too small  that won't remain an obstacle. You have to be on top of everything every step of the way to make it happen  correctly. It reminds me of a South American business owner who said he can never take a vacation because everyone stops working.

I fortunately have a strong wife who tells me she will handle the Colombians so I do not feel the pinch of every "mistake."

You are also right on target regarding the corruption and bureaucracy. The bureaucracy and Colombian work ethic would be comical if one did not have to be involved with it.

Jamie

[zack]

... in response to Re: Re: Colombia is Dangerous, posted by Traveller on Oct 14, 2003

[This message has been edited by zack]

Traveller,

Thank you for the lengthy response. I can see why you are fed up. It makes me wonder how any Colombian business ever got off the ground.

Zack

[Calipro]

... in response to Colombia is Dangerous, posted by Traveller on Oct 14, 2003

Will you still be in Cali in December or when are you leaving? Who is going to run your buisness?

I was hoping to talk to you when I go down in Dec. Let me know what's up.

Thanks, Calipro

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Colombia is Dangerous, posted by Calipro on Oct 14, 2003

Does he need anybody to help him with those chicas?
You would be like an alcoholic in the bar business,consuming the merchandise.
Reminds me of a joke.Definition of a holy terror.Mormon bishop in a whore house with a credit card.
But it could be fun.
And Keith was a little like that when he had the agency.A friend of mine was over there.He asks keith,who is that girl.Answer,my girlfriend.How about the other one?Also my girl friend.Maybe he is having more fun than he will admit.But if it was that good I don't think hw would split.I think its a struggle for him to make it,like anybody who counts on income from there to make it.

Pete

[Calipro]

... in response to Re: Re: Colombia is Dangerous, posted by Pete E on Oct 14, 2003

Don't get me wrong I think Traveler is a good guy and I would like to know half of what he knows about running a modeling agency in Cali. But, I don't need him to find beautiful women for me in Cali. There was only one on his web site that I really have the hots for and I have a pretty good idea on how to find her.
But, I already have something else lined up so I don't even think I'll bother with it.

I know what Traveler means about doing business in Colombia. I went out with Mariana a couple of times before I knew she was Travelers ex-girlfriend. After I found out I asked her if she could set me up with some of the models in his agency because she said she knew a lot of them. Sure enought she called a number of her friends and they told me they would do all day photo shoots for a lousy 300,000 pesos a day. With people willing to under cut you like that how can you make a living in Colombia. For the record I never went through with it. But, if she would have know the one I had the hots for I don't know if I could have stopped myself.

Anyway I wish Traveler the best of luck in what ever he does.