Pete

[Michael B]

I took a few days off and just saw your problem. Better late than never, I'll add my sympathy and 'hang in there, guy' to the rest. As for advice, I see you already have a lot, only thing I can add is that what JunFan advised you to do is probably illegal in Calf, it sure as heck is in Texas and the courts have this little rule called 'discovery' (which her lawyer will be quite familar with and very adept at).....if you do make a cash stash, for goodness sake don't get CAUGHT.

[Zorrowins]

... in response to Pete, posted by Michael B on Oct 4, 2003

After a very emotional break up and much research I determined my ex girlfriend has a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Look it up on your search engine. Look at especially a site by Halcoyn. Narcissist are self absorbed-they have no empathy for others, feel entitled to everything(not grateful-not even a thank you), control freaks, very critical of others-easpecially you, yet do not accept critism(They become enraged of critism and if they lose control). Female narcissist are ALWAYS PERFECT. That is how they truely see themselves. So Pete-look it up(Narcissistic Personality Disorder). Oh-one more thing the pattern in a relationship with one is always these 3 phases-(1)Idealize you-put you on a pedestal. This makes you feel indescribably happy and content. Beyond one's wildest dreams. (2) Then comes devaluing you. Demeaning-critical-never good enough. With absolute rages. (3) the last phase is total disdane. At this point your relationship is toast!

We stupid men keep trying to get her back to (1). Ain't gonna happen.

Good Luck!

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Pete-Does Wife have a Narcissistic P..., posted by Zorrowins on Oct 4, 2003

Most of it doesn't fit her.She has lots of friends and can be feeling and caring.She is self centered,wants to be independent.Hates anybody controlling her,which I never even tried to do,but just asking where are you going could draw a dirty look of WHY?,like I was going to tell her she couldn't do it.And she did get to a resenttfull place.She wouldn' say why.I think its because she is mad at me and herself because she doesn't want to be with me,but she is,so its like I trapped her by making her dependent on me.
She is also secretive about personal things,nobody,even her mother I think,really knows whats going through her head.Even though she can have an animated phone conversation for an hour its about people and things.
At some point I will post a more coherant story from the start and you guys can judge.

Pete

[zack]

... in response to Re: Pete-Does Wife have a Narcissistic P..., posted by Zorrowins on Oct 4, 2003

You just described my EX American girlfriend to a "T". Maybe we dated the same woman. (ha) What is the name of that website by Halcoyn?

Zack

[Zorrowins]

... in response to Re: Re: Pete-Does Wife have a Narcissist..., posted by zack on Oct 4, 2003

If you type in Narcissistic Personality Disorder one of the listings is www.halcon.com. This one is good. Also a new book "Loving The Self-Absorbed" by Nina Brown is excellent. The easiest way to know you are probably with a Narcissist is by their actions. They are usually bright, above normal inteligence, and often attractive. However, on an emotional level they are similar to a bright 5 year old child.They were abused as children and never developed emotionally. In our case(Men) also search under Female Narcissist. There is very little information on Female Narcissist. THEY NEVER get help, as they are PERFECT! To get help one would have to admit to needing it(mental or otherwise). So thusly the mental health profesionals learn of the disorder from their victims. Obviously Narcissist are very abusive. Now how many man are going to go to a mental health professional and admit they were in a relationship with an abusive woman? Not going to happen! However, women who are with Narcisstic men do go. As a result there isn't much information on women with NPD.

[zack]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Pete-Does Wife have a Narcis..., posted by Zorrowins on Oct 4, 2003

Yep. That's her. Above normal intelligence, very attractive, abused as a child, self-absorbed, emotionally immature, and PERFECT. Not only will she not get help, but she doesn't even believe in therapy. Probably just an excuse. Thanks for the info.

Zack

[Zorrowins]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Pete-Does Wife have a Na..., posted by zack on Oct 5, 2003

Hi Zack!
It's nice to hear from someone who understands the gut wrenching emotional effect these Narcissistic women have on us! I strongly advise you to peruse the book Loving The Self-Absorbed by Nina Brown to understand(Not to ever go back to your Narcissist!). Like they are totally obssessed at being in total control of their environment(This includes YOU). Mine called the police and threw her 18 year old daughter out because she challanged her control. Our relationship gradually broke down over her total lack of respect for my personal boundaries. Also the peculair habit of questioning in very great detail over something you did or perhaps bought for her. The total lack of concern they have over your needs or wants, the only person who is important to them is of course themselves! The fact you are walking on egg shells when around them.

Now to the rest of the board who says these guys are total losers to ever stay with someone like that. I understand and until it happened to me would totally agree! However, you have no idea how intensely they can love us when they are in the idealization phase of their neurosis! The horrible negative factors never come out until we are totally in love with them. Then it cycles from (1) adoration,(2) devaluing, (3) to toal disdain. If you confront them in the devaluing stage they will immediately leave the relationship. So we hang on thinking,if we men just try harder, we can prove our love and things will go back to (1)! And indeed it does for ever shorter periods. I would challenge her-she would immediately end the relationship-then in 2-4 weeks I would show up at her doorstep and everything would be (1) again for of course a very brief time, followed by (2) and finally(3). And honestly when they are in (3) they are VERY open to a new, perfect lover who will adore them. So the cycle continues.

[zack]

... in response to Reply to ZACK: Pete-Does Wife have a Nar..., posted by Zorrowins on Oct 5, 2003

I will get that book you recommend since I have had trouble finding a good book about Narcicism beyond my old books from psych class. I can totally relate to your story.

I could write a book about this but let me just add one additional characteristic that narcissists have that you didn't mention: an obsession with physical appearance. My EX did not want kids because she feared that she would lose her perfect body. Not only did she want me to lose every ounce of fat, but she also insisted that I work out and get big and buff.

Whoever is reading this post and thinks that this could never happen to you because you are too observant, you are wrong. Some of these narcissists appear very normal and sometimes irresistable to the opposite sex. Not only are they beautiful, they are also funny, charming, and witty. In the beginning they seem like the catch of a lifetime and show no warning signs whatsoever. Any man can fall victim to them.

Zack

[surfscum]

... in response to Re: Reply to ZACK: Pete-Does Wife have a..., posted by zack on Oct 6, 2003

bald, fat, buck-toothed, it could happen to you.

[zack]

... in response to Unless you are, posted by surfscum on Oct 7, 2003

LOL!!  very true.

Zack

[Zorrowins]

... in response to Re: Reply to ZACK: Pete-Does Wife have a..., posted by zack on Oct 6, 2003

Zack'
As you probably guessed after our final break up, I spent months trying to figure her out, to determine if their was any hope(There isn't), and most importantly figure me out. The last two years of the relationship I felt a little insane! In my head I knew this lady was a mental wack job, but in my heart I loved her and wanted thing to work out. So let me know how things work out for you. Also feel free to email me at zorrowins@aol.com if you wish.
Good Luck,
Michael

[Pete E]

... in response to Pete, posted by Michael B on Oct 4, 2003

About cash stashing,as it would relate to a US divorce or bankruptcy.Yes,if you hide money and don't tell them its a crime.Thats what Tammy Fay Bakers present husband went to prison for.Hiding assets in a bankruptcy.My options by being willing to leave the country are emensly better.But you can be sure I will not step over the line into anything criminal.I want to visit here at least once a year with out being afraid of being arrested.Nothing I am thinking of,which I better not say more about,is in that catagory.I was mad at myself for hanging in so long and spending so much of my money.When I discovered the options I still have,well I've been pretty excited every since.One question that came up when facing the end of the marriage was what next and how much hassle.That kept me stuck as well as alot of other things.

Pete

[Pete E]

... in response to Pete, posted by Michael B on Oct 4, 2003

Michael,
Thanks.I am working on the solution right now.I am trying to get imformation about a Seminar in Panama City next week.
Anybody here know?I want to attend if its what I think it is.I may or may not live in Panama but my bank and stock accounts will be there.There are many more solutions if you are willing to move everything offshore and give uo being here.I can always come back ,just not park any assets here for along time.I will not be here to pay alimony and the only asset I was concerned with is my pension,which I find cannot be touched by anybody but the IRS.There is alot more to the plan.
I am up front with my wife about this.She can't get anything but this house cause I can't move it.I will give it to her plus her car and the furniture and probably some other benefits that will in effect cost me nothing.Let me just say my other big asset other than my pension is my credit,which is gold plated,but not for long.The house is overincumbered and hopefully about to be more so.She can't afford the house payment,would you believe $5620 a month,but she can stay here 6 months to a year before they can get her out.My cousin got to stay 2 years one time.With a little legal help you can delay,delay,delay.
I feel really good.For my own peace of mind I have decided to take the high road,not dwell on the negative,which could drive me crazy.I am going to presume the absolute best intentions on her part.It might be stupid,but its all water under the bridge so why stress it.I have treated her,her son and her family like gold for 4 years,so why screw it up being an a-shole on the way out?
My wife and I are not fighting,not being negative.Been there,done that,no more.Time to move on.feels good.
The pain was the 1000 nights I stared at the ceiling because my wife didn't love me and didn't want me to touch her.Why would ANYBODY do that?My biggest excuse is a series of temporary fixes that never lasted because she seems unable to have the feelings for me that a successfull  marriage takes.Can't change it,leave it.Reminds me of a saying,similar to a completely different one."When the going gets tough,the smart split."I was a little slow getting around to it.
But its history.I would rather hold it in the best possible light.
Off to the next phase of my life.I am ready for the change.I am excited about it.No pain now.

Pete

[Michael B]

... in response to Re: Pete, posted by Pete E on Oct 4, 2003

OK. Best is to get her to make an agreement. Of course if she does not have a Spanish speaking lawyer representing her, she might cry 'I didn't understand' and get something for that. As far as your pension goes, if her lawyer makes a stink, she might get some of it. My X got half of mine, and there is indeed a FEDERAL law that WILL attach your pension if a state court asks them to as part of a divorce or child support case (If I remember right, it's call a 'qualified domestic relations order'....another little gift from our femminist legislators). Now, we were married 16 years and had two kids together. For four years and no kids, we can hope the state court thinks she doesn't deserve any of your pension. (Hell, mine doesn't DESERVE any of it either, but they sure enough gave it to her.) Another difference (at least I think, from what you've said before) is that you earned all of your pension BEFORE you were with her. Mine was earned WHILE we were married and they calculated what it was worth on the day the divorce was final and gave her 1/2 of that. I'm still in that pension plan and everything I've earned since then she doesn't get any of. I think the key of the law is 'the portion of the pension earned while you are married'.

About the house. ZHAZAN! $5620 a month? That's more than a lot of us (well, at least I can speak for myself) make. Is there any way you could sell the house and settle the mortage? You mentioned trying to save your credit.....

One more piece of advice....these things can give a man a thirst (been there). If it becomes necessary again, don't send wine coolers to do a 151 job, just don't drive a car while working on the problem.

Good luck to you and may you find a good woman who will treat you right. Don't be a stranger after you travel.

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Pete, posted by Michael B on Oct 4, 2003

Michael, I love it,No wine colers for a 151 job.
I started recieving my pension before I married her.She has no direct right to it.As far as attaching it you got me a little worried.Maybe I will get a second opinion.Thats really the key.I haven't seen a divorce lawyer yet.My goal is to giv my wife a good enough deal to keep her away from one.
Interesting thing,had I been married to my wife when I retired she could have gotton half of my pension for the rest of her life after I die.That could be 40 years of benefits if she lived long enough.Also medical for the rest of her life and the son to 22 or something like that.Its such a tremendous difference I even considered going back to a job I hated for a year and then retiring a second time.I would be REALLY pissed now if I had done that.Like I would had I adopted her son,which I said I would if I needed to to assure his ability to leave Colombia after going there.At least I didn't do that.You know nothing I have done for her,and the list is HUGE has made any difference and I think she could just as easily have ignored these other 2 things if I had done them.I would tell her do you have any idea where you and your family would be right now if I hadn't come along?The step father lost his job and copuldn't get another,so there would have been only one income,hers,if she still had a job.They were in a much lessor house in a bad neighborhood.She say you are trying to shame me.I say no,I just want you to take a look at the TRUTH.I would like to put her back where I found her for a few days at leasst for her to think about the difference I madec in all their lives.But it never ever mattered at all to her.Rarely said thanks,even when I put up the money for the business so her family would have some income.She said god did it for her.I said I would like you to see where you would be without What I have done.God maybe,but only working through the efforts of me.Got to lert this line of thinking go.It never helped and always just made thing worse.
I feel great.I have never been so sure of anything.So WHY did I take so long to get here?No mas,muy,muy consado.

Pete