Rumsfeld's Visit

[CaliAdvisor]

Well Rumsfeld rapped up his visit yesterday with the President, Defense Minister and top generals of Colombia. I wonder if he finds it ironic that both sides in the war get their financial backing from the same country: the USA. The guerilla is financed by our citizens drug purchases and the army is financed by our tax payments. Meanwhile its the Colombians who die fighting.

[jim c]

... in response to Rumsfeld's Visit, posted by CaliAdvisor on Aug 21, 2003

You must be hanging with colombians. All the people who smuggled or made money from the dope business always told me if we didn't buy it they wouldn't sell it. We are giving them a papaya and they have to take it.
    It is not your friends that are dying for colombia they are in school and their fathers( the ones who benefit from the trickle down dope money)pay so they don't have to fight. The fighting is done by poor indians, fighting poor indians, while the wealthy business and political class sit at parties and talk about how they love their country. You may notice that things started getting done after the bombing of the walnut club in Bogota. (only dumb indians are suposed to die) Farc is still denying they did it. BIG Mistake!!!
    As to the dope, a guy I know, who made a lot of money in New York, once told me, if they arrested everyone in Cali that was in the business, the whole town would be in jail. My question to you is , was colombia better off when Pablo ruled and the president took dope money. I bet your friends daddies think so. jim c

[cancunhound]

... in response to Re: Rumsfeld's Visit, posted by jim c on Aug 22, 2003

I like how Colombian congressman Wilson Borja summed up the situation in one short phrase - "Colombia is so poor because Colombia is so rich".  

A mere 1% of the population owns 60% of the land.  Drugs are just one small part of the mess down there.

[CaliAdvisor]

... in response to Re: Rumsfeld's Visit, posted by jim c on Aug 22, 2003

Your missing the point. It is not a matter of "if we didnt buy it, they wouldnt sell it" there are ALWAYS going to be buyers. Since the dawn of civilization, man has been seeking to self medicate himself. It is a matter of "if it wasn't ilegal, we wouldn't make any money selling it".

You seem to have the impression that all Colombians are narco traficers. This is as wrong as wrong can be.  Most Colombians want this scourge to be rid of their country because it distorts every aspect of their country especially their economy. Look at Cali for example. In spite of its bad state of repair and lousy public services, it is one of the most expensive cities in Colombia while cities like Manizales and Medellin are modern and efficient. Why? Because all the money that was flying into this town 15 years ago boosted the cost of living for EVERYONE. The trickle down affects are no longer present, but the elevated cost of living sure is.

[jim c]

... in response to Re: Re: Rumsfeld's Visit, posted by CaliAdvisor on Aug 22, 2003

Look Abby

  I spent 12 years in Narcotic Enforcement. I taught at the Detroit Police academy and was an instructor for the DEA local tech schools. I am aware of mans wish to alter his state of reality. So don't bother getting into the legalization crap. It didn't work in England and won't work here.  Look at Amsterdam which is now a big dope den and whorehouse. I remember it from 1971.

Read the archives. Twenty five years ago Bogota had dirt streets, I was there staying in the tequendama hotel. Cali was a colonial city with dirt roads. Most of the city was torn down and all those high rises were built to wash money. As to the trickle down effect who do you think lives in those expensive houses in Pance, El Ingenio and Cuidad Jardin How about all those high rises in Normandy and Arbolada. What!! you think the money came from sugar cane? Everyone was involved, Doctors, lawyers Politicians they all made money. People would buy houses for three times their value just to hide the money. We have a couple of malls in Miami where the sisters, cousins and aunties ran upscale stores with astronomical prices just to wash that money.

I bet you believe there were no Nazis in Germany. Do you expect the colombians to beg forgiveness? Most of them are only afraid of the violence of the business. I have dated four women from agencies who were married to traffickers and I am not talking about bag men. One lived in NYC and her husband was caught with 250 k's.  She asked me if that was a lot.  Another was married to a plastic surgeon who worked for Pablo. She told me he was killed in his car. I assumed it was an accident . Wrong!! It is very convienent to ignore where papi's money comes from. I think you had better keep your ears open wider than your mouth. Thinking you know something there can get you in real trouble. jim c

[DOMINGUIN]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Rumsfeld's Visit, posted by jim c on Aug 22, 2003

Good points.  

I never asked any woman I met or dated what her ex husband did for a living. If they volunteered it,that was fine, but I wasn't going to get into the narco conversation unless it came up.  

Perhaps, some women I met might have been beneficiaries of the narco trade.  I remember going out just once in Bogota for lunch with a woman who had easily $10,000-$15,000 USD in jewelry and threads on her body, includng a Swiss gold watch, an emerald bracelet and earings with beautiful stones and designer clothes.  She was in Bariloche which is an exclusive resort area (I think in Argentina) last summer. Last summer, I did a 12 day car trip in a 93 Taurus with my 19 year son going to baseball games in New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore and visiting the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, living in Motel 6's and gobbling down cheesburgers, fries and Cokes.  I decided not to give her full details of the trip!  And, here I was: "el norteamericano con dinero" with a $69.95 Timex I had bought specifically for the trip, so I wouldn't get ripped off.   Not that I could even afford her watch! And this woman was registered with an agency! Interestingly enough, at the sita she had been dressed nicely, but the jewelry was limited.

To try and educate myself about Colombia's politics, I read several books about Colombian history and politics (including Ingrid Betancourt's autobiography) before I left the US and realized that for me as an outsider to volunteer an informed opinion about a half century of non stop violence was just asking for trouble.

The subject came up a couple of times in Bogota and I would say as tactfully as I could that I had enough trouble following my own country's politics, that I had found the Colombians I met to be friendly and wonderful people and for so many people to die was such a terrible waste of life.  Another woman that I had dinner with in Bogota (unfortunately, a lawyer and the only woman I ever felt I was "competing" with for gender dominance) who spoke excellent English just wanted to discuss politics with me.  We disucssed American pop culture as a compromise, the  dinner never really became a date and I never saw her again.

[CaliAdvisor]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Rumsfeld's Visit, posted by jim c on Aug 22, 2003

Shaking down crack peddlers on the mean streets of D-Town doesnt exactly make you Miami Vice material or an expert. I don't care how many single moms you sent to the slammer for long sentences in order to boost your arrest quota, the fantasies your spewing don't exactly add up.

Amsterdam? You want to talk about Amsterdam? That is one of the friendliest, most beautiful cities in Europe. Maybe in your ingnorance you didnt make it beyond the tourist red light districts, but thats your problem, next time invest in a better guide book or at least have the sense to venture beyond the disneyland tourist crap.

The people in this country hate the narcotraficers as much as you do. Look at what they did to Cali. It has been destroyed by them. In the 70s this was the most civic town in Colombia. The people lined up to get on the bus and the Valle Caucano work ethic was world renowned. The Paris of south america, then came the drug money and it all went to the crapper. These people want their city back and they want the "tracetos" (thats narcos cause you prolly dont even speak spanish) out.

[jim c]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Rumsfeld's Visit, posted by CaliAdvisor on Aug 22, 2003

DEAR ABBY  When I was a Narc I worked with Heroin and Cocaine. They did not have crack then. The DEA Task Force worked class three violators that is ounce level and up, domestic. (an ounce buy of coke was $3,500.00) Miami Vice fed your brain with fantasys. It dosn't work that way.

Have you got a thing about sending single mothers to Jail? I don't see where that came from, unless it is a trauma event in your life. As to what was happening in the 70's, with your attitude and lack of culture, I doubt if you were even an intention at that time.  An adult with true experience would not find it necessary to stoop to sticks and stones to defend their opinion or even have a desire to. I haven't read any references to support your opinions, trick.

PS what did your mama look like. jim c

[burbuja2]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Rumsfeld's Visit, posted by CaliAdvisor on Aug 22, 2003

Great argument!  You belittle the excellent qualifications of jim c without bothering to enlighten us as to your own.  Do you think that sitting around dazed in a semi-circle with stoned-out friends while you contemplate a flower pot gives you any greater insight into the nefarious world of narcotics and dangerous drugs than a credentialed law enforcement official who has lived that world for 12 years?  I'm well aware that there are a mutitude of arguments concerning the economic and social effects created by narco-trafficing.  That can certainly be open to debate.  An idiotic attack, however, on the experience of an individual who is obviously well-qualified is hardly an effective way to advance your arguments.  Oh, and my advice?  The next time that addiction of yours raises its ugly head and you get a craving to post something really stupid-JUST SAY NO.

[Traveller]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Rumsfeld's Visit, posted by CaliAdvisor on Aug 22, 2003

Dude, you just made yourself into an instant ass questioning Jim's credentials.
Miami Vice? If you knew anything about Jim, they probably did use Jim as the basis of some of the more professional characters on that show.
You have no idea who you are insulting. All things aside Jim has helped a heck of a lot of people out on this board and more people in person. You got a lot of nerve insulting him.

[mudd]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Rumsfeld's Visit, posted by CaliAdvisor on Aug 22, 2003

n/t

[Cali James]

... in response to Yep, this is Arron  all right. diffrent ..., posted by mudd on Aug 22, 2003


I don't think it's Aaron.....

[thundernco]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Rumsfeld's Visit, posted by CaliAdvisor on Aug 22, 2003

Advisor,

I've been following the thread, interesting points of view on all sides.  For my own edification, what exactly is your experience/education in regards to this topic? -TNC

[cancunhound]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Rumsfeld's Visit, posted by CaliAdvisor on Aug 22, 2003

I was always under the impression that Cali's infrastructure is a direct result of the drug trade.  I consider Cali to be very modern and well laid out by LA standards - the drug trade hasn't destroyed Cali, it's built Cali IMHO.  Many consider the Cali Cartel to be the most sucessfull criminal organization ever in the world - it shows in Cali.  I haven't noticed any overwhelming hatred for the narcos there either - I quit asking friends questions like "what does that guy do?  He's constantly running errands all day in that nice suv, but appears to have no job?" - the answer is just kind of a hush-hush wink.  The drug trade is still big-time in Cali.

[CaliAdvisor]

... in response to narcos in Cali, posted by cancunhound on Aug 22, 2003

The Cali Cartel doesn't exist anymore. The main cartels now adays are the "North Valle" cartel which is based in Northern Valle de Cauca (ie. Cartago, Tulua, Buga) and the Coastal Cartel which is up arround Baranquilla and Santa Marta. Its all been very scattered out and now is in the hands of a lot of smaller time players. The guerilla are playing a bigger role than ever.