I apologize

[Brazilophile]

I responded to the racism post because I believe that it is a serious and important topic to discuss.  A Latina's perspective on race is different from an American's and her experiences here as a (possibly darker skinned)Hispanic will affect one's relationship with her.

A guy who doesn't post here married a dark skinned Cartagenera a year ago.  He said her experience is that she is assumed to be Black American and is treated as such by everybody including real Black Americans.  She feels slighted by this partly because her heritage is being ignored and partly because Blacks feel she is being snobbish when she doesn't respond to them.  (She isn't confident about her English and has difficulty understand them.)

But some of the posts in this important thread have become utterly ridiculous.  The problem is that most of those posts are coming from one individual.  I am embarassed that that individual has claimed to be Black.  Due to the penchant for stereotyping Blacks, I was raised to be aware of the de facto ambassadorial role that every Black plays for the race.  That role is especially important for Blacks of high education and status.

On behalf of myself and Blacks in general, I apologize for the immature behavior this particular Black individual has displayed in the racism thread.  This individual claims to be highly educated and that increases my embarassment in light of the important topic.  The majority of highly educated Blacks in the US strive to break down remaining racial sterotypes and engage only in respectful, dignified, and mature behavior in public forums such as this.  This individual is NOT representative of educated Blacks.  Please do not consider him/her a reflection of Blacks generally.

[Ralph]

... in response to I apologize, posted by Brazilophile on Aug 7, 2003

Hopefully in this day and age, you shouldn't feel the need to be an "embassador". I think most of us here are intelligent enough to judge people as individuals.

[Cali James]

... in response to I apologize, posted by Brazilophile on Aug 7, 2003

[This message has been edited by Cali James]

"On behalf of myself and Blacks in general, I apologize for the immature behavior this particular Black individual has displayed in the racism thread. This individual claims to be highly educated and that increases my embarassment in light of the important topic. The majority of highly educated Blacks in the US strive to break down remaining racial sterotypes and engage only in respectful, dignified, and mature behavior in public forums such as this. This individual is NOT representative of educated Blacks. Please do not consider him/her a reflection of Blacks generally."

I don't know enough about the history of blacks in Latin America to have much of an opinion about Aaron's comments either way.  But I think he has a right to express his views without being held to some "Black" litmus test.  It's as if you think all blacks should think in a particular way and if they don't, you need to apologize for them.  

Well I happen to be of Northern European descent.  If I view the history of my people differently than others, will people begin apologizing for me because I'm not white enough.  Am I an ambassador to all Northern Eurepean white people?

I think this group type thinking is dangerous.  Ideas and opinions of history or whatever are best delt with on their own merit, period. Why do people like yourself put people into little racial boxes.  I remember the same type of group speak when Justice Thomas was being confirmed.  Here was an educated, intelligent black man, but because his ideas were more liberterian than liberal and not in line with what a black man was SUPPOSED to think, he was called an Uncle Tom or dismissed as not being black enough.  It's interesting to me that many who clamor most about diversity of race are really intolerant when it comes to diversity of opinion.

[Ralph]

... in response to Re:  I apologize, posted by Cali James on Aug 7, 2003

Unfortunatley sometimes it looks like african americans are in no win situations. If blacks are protrayed on TV as they were with old stereotypes, servants, criminals, etc etc etc, the black community cries out, as it should. When the Cosby Show had an upper middle class Black Family, there were many blacks complaining that the Cosbys weren't "black enough". Pretty rediculous. I remember when "Rock" was on, and people criticized the fact that he was a sanitation worker. Big deal? He was a good father, good husband, good member of the community, and worked hard for his family. The king of queens is a UPS guy, Norton worked in the sewers, Al Bundy sold friggin women's shoes;-)

OTOH, as with clarence Thomas, I remember Colin Powell being called an uncle Tom. That guy has accomplished an awful lot, and if he decdided to run for president a few years back he had a VERY good chance to be the first Black President. I have NEVER voted in my life, but would have registered and voted for Powell, because at the time at least, he was more statesman than politician.

[Brazilophile]

... in response to Re:  I apologize, posted by Cali James on Aug 7, 2003

It is unfortunate that you mix apples an oranges, James.  That is part of the problem with discussing race in the US.

Re-read carefully the part of my post that you quoted above WITHOUT projecting your own biases onto me.  It CLEARLY states that my problem with Aaron is his BEHAVIOR!!! NOT HIS VIEWS!!!!!

The manner in which he is expressing himself is disgraceful.  The history of Blacks and Whites IN THE US is that prejudiced Whites use the poor behavior of one Black individual to vilify Blacks collectively.  One recent example of that is the portrayal Willie Horton in Bush senior's presidential campaign.  It was effective because MOST Whites in the US saw (still see?) Willie Horton as the potential in EVERY Black man.

[Cali James]

... in response to Re: Re:  I apologize, posted by Brazilophile on Aug 7, 2003

[This message has been edited by Cali James]

"It was effective because MOST Whites in the US saw (still see?) Willie Horton as the potential in EVERY Black man."

Who's projecting now!!!

Listen I re-read every post in the thread on rascism and I didn't find Aaron's behavior so reprehensible that you needed to apologize for him as some sort of self appointed spokesman for the black race.  I also think it's a bit unfair to make him an ambassader for anything other than himself.  When most of the board was down on Houndog, the thought never entered my mind to apologize for his behavior on behalf of myself and all the white race.

[Brazilophile]

... in response to Re: Re: Re:  I apologize, posted by Cali James on Aug 7, 2003

"When most of the board was down on Houndog, the thought never entered my mind to apologize for his behavior on behalf of myself and all the white race. "

You have just highlighted one of the differences between the life experiences of Blacks in the US and Whites in the US that makes communication and understanding about race so difficult.  Non-Whites are reminded of their non-White race on almost a daily basis.  Whites rarely consciously think about their race or the race of other Whites.

Another example.  When David Cone and Marv Albert were accused of taking "sexual liberties" with women, the fact they are White was not discussed in the media.  When Kobe Bryant and, to a lesser extent, Michael Jordan "commit adultery", race, through the stereotype of Black male sexuality, enters the discussion.

To make this post relevant to Latinas, Black men may have to deal with this and other stereotypes with those women who get most of their impressions about the US through television and movies.

[Ralph]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re:  I apologize, posted by Brazilophile on Aug 7, 2003

The Media blows lots of stuff out of proportion. I'm adopted. Whenever an adopted person either commits a crime or is the victim, the media hypes that up. Equally as silly. When I think about Kobe, I don't think about his being black at all. Personally I think he is guilty of adultery, nothing else, but we will have to wait and see. I think he was more than a bit foolish, with all he has to lose etc, but being black has zero to do with any of that.

Marv Albert had way more issues as his story was more than a bit "out there". I don't think David Cone was married. Heck, I don't even remember Jordan having problems. I just think of him as a pretty darn good basketball player.

[DOMINGUIN]

... in response to huh?, posted by Ralph on Aug 8, 2003

Jordan did have off the court issues. He admited to allowing a woman to blackmail him for severl years about an adulterous realtionship.  I believe that at the present time, he is legally separated from his wife, Juanita. He was (is?) also a huge gambler, especially on his own golf abilities, but I suppose if let himself get hustled and could afford to lose the money...then its an issue only for him and his family.

[Ralph]

... in response to Re: huh?, posted by DOMINGUIN on Aug 8, 2003

What does any of that have to do with his being black? Pete Rose had much worse gambling problems and many athletes, stars, politicians cheat on their wives. Clinton comes to mind. I am accepting Brazilophiles word on it, but don't remember seeing media harping on Michael or Kobe being black. They are celebrities and hence will get scrutinized.

[DOMINGUIN]

... in response to yeah but. . . ., posted by Ralph on Aug 8, 2003


Ralph:
I don't disagree with you.  You had mentioned that you hadn't heard that Michael Jordan had any issues and I just gave you some information, that's all it was, no disagreement.

You're right, famous people, celebrities and stars do get intensive media scrutiny because of their position.  I also think millions of the American public want to see the failure/spiral down/redemption/triumph cycle of the "rich and famous" because they think that celebrities' falures gives meaning to their own lives. I think its a sad commentary on the emptiness of some people's lives.

But you're right, race is not a factor in reporting on celebrities' problems.

Dominguin

[Cali James]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re:  I apologize, posted by Brazilophile on Aug 7, 2003

Interesting you brought up Kobe.

Kobe's the perfect case to test your white dominated view of America.  On one hand, you have a teenage white woman who claims to have been raped and on the other you have a very famous black man accused of being the perpetrater.  Not a lot of the facts are known at this time but Kobe does admit to having sex with her and having committed adultery.

If this were the white dominated society you think it is, Kobe would have been crucified by the public.  But the reality is, that Kobe is seen in many cirles in more a sympathetic light than his white accuser. He's perceived by many as the victim, not her.

Your perception of this event illustrates how differently we see the world.

[DOMINGUIN]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re:  I apologize, posted by Brazilophile on Aug 7, 2003

Sorry, I have to disagree on one point that you made. The on the court accomplishments of both Jordan and Bryant transcend race and I never heard or saw any coverage that described their off the court behavior as typical of black male sexuality.

And in the same vein, I happen to believe (based on the evidence that was presented and his attempt to flee in the Bronco) that OJ Simpson did indeed murder his ex wife and her male friend.  But I saw no coverage that depicted black men as more prone to have violent, murderous rages.  This particular man (Simnpson) was used to getting what he wanted almost his entire life based on his atheletic ability and his charm.  His wife had rejected him, divorced him and might have been having an intimate  relationship with Goldman.  And Simpson snapped, not becasue he was a black male but because someone he obsessively regarded as his possession was humiliating him.
I think he would have committed murder, if Nicole was black and Goldman was also black.  That is just my opinion.

[Brazilophile]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:  I apologize, posted by DOMINGUIN on Aug 7, 2003

"I never heard or saw any coverage that described their off the court behavior as typical of black male sexuality."

Fair enough.  The context in which I heard it was whether these two (Bryant and Jordan) lost their public appeal as product endorsers due to their "daliances".  On MSNBC a few days ago, someone speculated that Bryant's new noteriety gives him "street cred" so his endorsing power might not have suffered.  In addition, some non-media comments by Black women may have leaked into my memories.

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re:  I apologize, posted by Brazilophile on Aug 7, 2003

STREET CORNER RHETORIC. Kobe is guilty. And he should have considered how people, white and black, would preceive his behavior before he acted out. I personally think he should be placed behind bars. He can't be allowed to walk free, then more people will do what he did, and think they can get away with it.

Mr. Douglas