Is lying the national pastime in Colombia

[Hiker]

... in response to Re: Re: Latinas are big time Liars??, posted by DOMINGUIN on May 15, 2003

Well said! Very true.

Everyone has an opinion and my opinion is that the regard for the truth is different in Latin America than it is here.  Of course not everyone in Latin America is a liar, but it does seem to be more accepted and expected in that culture.  I don't mean lying because you have to for survival, but the little "white" lies seemed to find their way into a lot of conversations.  

Having said that I will also say that I have met some girls there who were brutally honest.  

[Celt]

... in response to Re: Latinas are big time Liars??, posted by beenthere on May 15, 2003

One of the forum big guns can comment on whether
Colombian women in general are liars. I can only
ask: what is the incentive for being honest in a
country where the elites came to their status more
often by the low and sordid road? What values do
the Colombians absorb from their elites?

As for the Calenas, stories go around the agencies
about the kind of men who visit: the middle-aged
Lotharios, the belt-notchers, the overnight Don
Juans. Believe me, they have seen and dealt with
all types. I have known some to turn pretty
cynical through their experiences with us. I think
that is why so many men have good luck with women
who are on their first cita.

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Latinas are big time Liars??, posted by Celt on May 15, 2003

Of course the economic and cultural situation in the country has something to do with it.Latin America and Colombia is in to graft,bribery,deciet  and geneal shake down of the less powerfull by the more powerfull.Its so ingrained in the culture it is a big barrier to them ever joining the first world.
We are a little different here.I had this discussion with my wifes english teacher,a very bright guy who has taught people from many cultures.His opinion was the US and Japan stood alone in putting a high value on truthfulness.A japanese man might fall on his sword out of shame if he told the lies that pass latins lips evey day.
I told the story of my car business expeience with persians.Would lie a about everything  and if you caught them in it it was like,so? I had a persian friend many years ago.He was a neat guy but a shameless liar.We used to cruse the bars together trying to pick up women.He told me once that I should not tell women y real job,which I wasactually proud of,but should tell them I was some  high tech mogul,I guess his idea of success. was astoundd.Then everything after that would be a lie because I knew nothing about the position he said I should tell them I was.And then what if we hit it off,then I would be thinking when do the lies catch me or when do I tell the truth?Our relationship ended when I was unwilling to lie for him in something he was trying to get from someone I knew.He just didn't get it.He thought it was no big deal.To me it makes you a person to disdain.
Someone said everybody lies some time.Probably true,but 10 lies a lifetime vs 10 a day are a whole different deal.I was a car dealer,of all things,for 5 years,and I can only remember telling one lie.And it was and  "I don't know."the guy looks at me,he knew I knew,I thought damn,I never lie,but if if I ever  do even once I get caught.Actually,on the same car, voluntered imformationI foundout after I had signed contract on the car.I was selling it fopr $37,000.I found out about some history on the car that was not good.I told the guy,look,I need to tell you something.He thanked me for being honest and said he would buy the car anyway,but then backed out later.usedto say I could count the lie I told in my life one hand.It was probably selective memory.I could count the significant ones on one hand.

Pete

[Celt]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Latinas are big time Liars??, posted by Pete E on May 15, 2003

I spent four years in Japan as an English teacher too.
The ethic of honesty and probity is amazing.

[beenthere]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Latinas are big time Liars??, posted by Pete E on May 15, 2003

Pete,
Don't start waving flags with the thought that Americans are so honest and it's part of our culture to be so.  Let's see......Bill Clinton "I did not have sex with that woman" or "it depends on what the definition of the word "is" is".
Enron,Tyco,MCI,Richard Nixon, the list goes on,........graft, bribery, deceit?  That is not just common to Colombia my man, the good old USA has been full of it for years.  
I think most of the lies perpetrated by Colombianas is based on the fact that, though, they might like the guy, but they aren't that crazy about him either; they are simply trying to keep their options open.  Let's be realistic, if the woman is 100% head over heels for a man (her principe azul) she is more than likely not going to lie to him, and will more than likely be at home waiting for his call.
Guys, we're all grown men............this is not rocket science.  You know if a woman wants you or not, especially a Colombiana.  You'll know it after the 2nd or 3rd date.  If they haven't warmed up by then, it's time to move on.  Or maybe you're setting your sites too high, aiming for an 8 or 9, when you should be going after a 5 or 6.
And by the way, if the majority of the members of this site think that Colombianas are such liars, why go down there??
Why have anything to do with them??  Also, how many of you would have the balls to plain out ask a Calena "why are Colombianas liars??"  I doubt if anyone would.  
And by the way Pete, in a separate post, you told the story of your 12 year old step-son lying to you regarding a lime.  Please Pete, you never lied to your parents when you were a boy?? If not, you're one of the rare few, and I congratulate you!

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Latinas are big time Lia..., posted by beenthere on May 16, 2003

If I would have lied to my dad,even over some stupid little thing,I would have been in big touble.My family is spanish Basque. You don't lie,period.Your word is your honor,and if you lie you drag down the honor of your people.No hari kari,but the next thing to it.I do remember one lie I told. I denied saying something I had said about my grandmother.My aunt heard it and went and told my grandmother.My dad comes to me,he was huge and imposing.Did you say this?Actually the way it came back to me seemed beyond what I  had said. I was scared.I denied it.My father went back and had a huge war with my aunt.I was asked again,I denied again.He and my aunt were not on speaking terms for months.He told her,he doesn't lie.I would have been dead if the truth had come out.So starting on my right hand,counting to the right,that was big lie number one.Actually there never was another big one,maybe 10 or so little ones my whole life.I can't remember one for years.
I even  think its a bad idea to tell kids the Santa Claus story.It raises the question what else are they lying to me about?
When someone like the english teacher,says americans have a higher standard about it,it of course  thats a generalization.Some of those persian car dealers are american,and they lie once a minute.
And,if you want to talk Clinton,yes he told a blatant lie to 100,000,000 americans on TV.I must admit as a republican he wasn't too bad for a democrat,but he is totally dead for any political office again,ever,because of his lying.Other parts of the world,like France,they are saying whats the big deal,it was a sexual escapade.I don't care about the sexual escapade,I care about him lying to us.This is not acceptable in the leader of our country.He couldn't be elected dog catcher again.Nixon,ditto,on TV.LBJ?Yup,gulf of Tonkin,and 50,000 American died after that lie,perhaps the lie with the biggest body count in US history..
You could come up with lots of examples of famous lies,particularly in corporate america recently.But there is a difference,in general,not all people or all ethnic groups.I think we got it from some of our european ancestors but they sem to lie over there now.I think we've slipped alot here recently.Big time court cases where some lawyers have become media stars by springing people they know damn well are killers drags us down.
But bottom line,when you start dealing with another culture where the lies come fast and easy you notice the difference.
And we are not just talking Colombiana  to Gringo here.Yeah girls need to watch out being used although I think they are the users most of the time,But even there,they don't need to lie.Whats wrong with just telling the truth?One speaker I heard one time said you can always tell the truth with love.

Pete

[Edge]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Latinas are big time..., posted by Pete E on May 16, 2003

There will probably be some people who think I am anti-amercian but I will say that I have never understood our political system.  It seems to me to be based on a "lie".  It seems to me to be nothing more than legalized bribery.  I guess when you decide to run for office you suddenly morph into a person who even though someone gives you money to be elected, you are not "affected" by this other person's generosity.  It has no "influence" on you.  Anotherwards, you turn into some kind of super human where people giving you money does nothing to influence you?  I guess this is what I am supposed to believe.  I guess I am much more in favor of a true democracy instead of this representative type, but I do not know if that would also work.

 Here in Colo. we have passed referendums to limit campaign contributions and each time our "leaders" have taken it to court to be overturned.  They then pass another law to raise the limit to four times what the people had legislated.  It goes against "first amendment rights" to have limits on campaign contributions according to our supposed leaders. Twice we have turned down referendums by wide margins for school vouchers but then the legislature goes ahead and quietly approves them.  There was a battle for redistricting for one more house seat that could not be decided so it went to a court a few years ago.  The court set 1/3 indendent, 1/3 republican & 1/3 democrat.  Seems fair to me.  That was not good enough for Washington so 3 days before the end of the current legislative session here in Colo., they set all new boundaries on all of the 7 districts without any input from the public.  Forgive me if I am cynical about our political system and how "honest" it is.  I know, I know, we could always vote people out but that rarely happens, especially when they redistrict at will.  Remember term limit pledges and exactly how many politicians actually kept their promise.  I can only think of one.  Once they got to Washington that promise went out the window.

To get back to the subject of honesty in the colombianas.  I had 3 colombian girlfriends and maybe mine were an aberration, but I can say all three were exceptionally honest, good people who never caught not be truthful.

[Michael B]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Latinas are big ..., posted by Edge on May 16, 2003

At least your state legislatetors stay in the state that elected them when they're in session, in Texas we have to go to Oklahoma to get a quarom. BTW, the Mexicans have a 'dicho' (which I think other Latin countries also use): "It isn't good business to spend more getting elected than you can steal once you're in office."

[wizard]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Latinas are ..., posted by Michael B on May 17, 2003


How can you tell that Texas legislators and used car salemen a lying???

Their lips are moving...

AND

What do they call a bus load of Texas Democrats going over a cliff???

A good start...

[Pete E]

... in response to 2 old jokes, the redux...., posted by wizard on May 17, 2003

How can you tell a dead lawyer in the street?
No skid marks.
Also,lawyer fits  in to Texas used car salesmen joke.
Probably got too close to home,I know we got lawyers here.Not everybody fits the mold,lots of pretty legit areas we need lawyers for.When you really need one your damn glad you have them.Like when you have to deal with the IRS.
Actually I used to buy cars wholesale out of Texas.I had a really good wholesaler in both Dallas and Houston.You buy sight unseen from wholesalers,although sometimes you pay after you see.You need to trust them to send the money first.Both these guys would refund money if you discoved a problem you were not told about.But then the worst snake I ever delt with was also in Houston.

Pete

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Latinas are big ..., posted by Edge on May 16, 2003

0 for 3 not lying is exceptional I think. I bet there are guys out there batting 3 to 0 the other way.
As far as the political system,its democracy,but any time someone does something,money or otherwise for a poitician he could be influenced.What really p!sses me off is the pork.
Projects that should not be funded,but it becomes a you vote for mine I'll vote or yours.It seems polticians and some voters think the politicians job is to bring all he canback to his district.I think they should forget that and think of the good of the county.I think a politician has to be able to turn down pork that benefits his distict to not be obligated to support other peoples pork.Even though I lie Bush  I don't like him  putting a tariff on imported steel or spending money on farm subsidies.
It can seem like playing Santa Claus with our money to buy votes.That may not be lying but it borders onethical.
I liked John McCainin the republican primary.It bothered me that Bush was te preumed winner so quickly and eveybody jumped on board so fast it was like no else had a chance.

Pete

[Jeff S]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Latinas are big time Lia..., posted by beenthere on May 16, 2003

There's shame brought upon liars here. Say what you want about Clinton getting away with it, he'll still go down in history as being impeached. Same with Nixon - he had to quit and hide for the rest of his life. Think the pres of Enron can show his face in public? get a new job as a CEO somewhere else? Compare that to some of the famous liars in other countries living in the lap of luxury - sure people lie here just the same as everwhere else - but that doesn't make it right nor acceptable.

BTW, I do NOT agree that all ____ (your choice of nationality) are liars. I also do not agree that it doesn't matter since it's socially acceptable there. It's simply a reflection of the character of the person doing the lying. If a person of that character is acceptable to you - then fine, marry a liar. I chose not to.

I also ain't buying the inane argument about socially acceptable lies. There's a HUGE difference between not telling someone that they're fat and ugly and claiming you need money for a sick aunt. One is an act of kindness sparing someone's feelings about something that doesn't matter a bit, and the other is deception solely for personal gain - clearly black and white issues - no shades of gray there.

- Jeff S.

[Pete E]

... in response to The difference is..., posted by Jeff S on May 16, 2003

Jeff,
I agree in pricipal.But you can't write of all latin ladies who have learned this behavior as a child,or this board would not even exist.It doesn't mean they are bad people or totally untrustable,necessarily.So if you want to be purist,don't go south.Again a generalizaton.So you will probably encounter this,even in a lady you have a good relationship with.In my opinion you just need to keep making the point you can tell me the truth.Please don't lie or tell stories about anything.But again,lied to once,there is always the lingering doubt.
That along with generaly tough communication,not just the language but the need to be direct,not evade or deny or avoid or change the subject,is the biggest problem of dealing with latinas I think.In my opinion its worth it.Would I rather have fat ugly and honest? No.And some fat and ugly US women lie to,it can be  a  woman thing as well as a cultural thing.I better stop before I really get flamed.Just my opinion.

Pete

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Latinas are big time Liars??, posted by Pete E on May 15, 2003

Funny story I remember.A very rich guy is at a social event.He sees a beautifull woman.He tells her you are very beautifull.Would you be willing to have sex with me for one  million dollars ?  She thinks about it for awhile of all she could do with the money,quit her job,travel,never work again,buy a home for her parents.She says yes,I would.
He says now that we know what you are,lets get more serious about the price.

Pete

[cancunhound]

... in response to Is lying the national pastime in Colombi..., posted by elcolombiano on May 14, 2003

Maybe she was just at the nightclub with her "church group"!  Lying is pretty common, however.  I'm curious - what was the spanish (I assume mom spoke spanish) version of "church group" - that's one phrase that I don't believe I've ever heard in Colombia.  I'd be more concerned that you might just have a party girl on your hands (unless that's what you want).  Unless there was a special occasion (birthday, etc..), Wednesday night is not exactly a popular goin' out night.