Cultural cliches and personal decision-making

[Yalg]

... in response to I love good sex !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..., posted by Aaron on Apr 22, 2003

Thats why your not having any before marriage right?  I think it could be that you cant get any.  How close am I?

[lswote]

... in response to I love good sex !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..., posted by Aaron on Apr 22, 2003

Then why do you so often try to cheapen other peoples' relationships or blame their failures on "lust and sex"?  Seems to me that either you really don't like sex or you are going for the cheap shot.

[wizard]

... in response to Re: Take your paxil..., posted by Yalg on Apr 22, 2003

No, I think he would fall head over heals in love with a sexually free woman, misinterpreting the event...

We have to remember that Aaron has been searching for over 5 years... Anyone in the hunt for that long and still has not found the right woman is likely to never find someone he considers his equal...

But, having said that, Aaron is obviously out of touch with reality...

Nuff said...

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Re: Take your paxil..., posted by wizard on Apr 22, 2003

n/t

[Cali James]

... in response to Una Pregunta...., posted by Aaron on Apr 21, 2003


For me the papaya rule is about looking out for number one today rather than seeing what's good for me tomorrow and out into the future.  It's more reactive than proactive and it appears to have little ethical constraints to keep it in check.   I suppose it's nothing more than the end justifying the means.  Sure, the United States has thieves, lyers and a multitude of people who are quite happy living the papaya lifesytle.  But in Latin America, the papaya seems to be much more ingrained into their culture and their way of thinking.  I think it comes from a lack of faith in the good nature of people and in human institutions like government.  People are so distrustful that they eventually give into the papaya rather than rejecting it or fixing it.

I can only speak for myself but when I first moved to Colombia I believed what people would tell me.  I came from a background where your word was your honor and so I tended to trust people.  I quickly learned however that in Colombia, trust should never be given freely and it is better earned.  I noticed that people were extremely suspicious of others and over time I found myself not trusting in others either.  

In my opinion, the papaya way of thinking is the fundamental problem facing Colombia today.  The FARC could be gone tomorrow but you'd still have a people who have little faith in anything outside their immediate family or self.  You can't build a strong economy or culture with this type of mentality, it will always fail.

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Una Pregunta...., posted by Cali James on Apr 21, 2003

cliche. It can be used to justify positive actions or negative actions. The cliche itself is not innately negative or unethical, but it can be used by negative and unethical people.

You're generalizing about Colombians by saying that most are unethical, lie, and are corrupt, and that Colombia is in the state that it is in because of the mentality that most people have. You can make that statement, but becareful because ideas like that have a funny way of pinching us in the azz down the road. And if you had such strong negative feelings and/or thoughts about Colombians, then why in the world were you there looking for a wife in the first place?

Yes, Colombia has a problem with corruption and ethics, but so do other places. And no, the FARC cannot just be eliminated tomorrow if everyone corrected their so called "papaya mentality".

Your making a fundamental mistake by comparing Colombian standards to USA standards. You cannot make such a comparison because the countries have different histories, and have experienced different levels of prosperity. Also, how much compatibility do you think an "aristocrate will have with a third world bar tender?" Let alone a guy "who considers himself from a first world nation, with so-called superior ethics and value system, dating and marrying a woman from the third world who wasn't as fortunate". The two types of people have different realities. They probably shouldn't cross paths in the first place.

The key is to try to understand why things are the way they are, why people do the things they do, without being victumized. I don't consider myself as a moral purist, but I have my limits for things that I consider as being unethical. But, one thing I do like, especially in the Colombian context, is how they have a different concept of truth and justice, and how they are interpreted. I think that is really interesting, and in some respects it has opened up my mind to understand the differences between us. And it helps me to make deep relationships with Colombian people.

Well, you're married now. You have to face the "papaya rule" on a daily basis. I hope you're with someone that uses it to express the positive, rather than the negative. This is why it is so important to take enough time to get to know your potential partner, especially someone coming from the 3rd world who would like to live in a 1st world country.

Aaron  

[lswote]

... in response to The papaya rule is a..., posted by Aaron on Apr 21, 2003

'how much compatibility do you think an "aristocrate will have with a third world bar tender?" Let alone a guy "who considers himself from a first world nation, with so-called superior ethics and value system, dating and marrying a woman from the third world who wasn't as fortunate".'

I can't speak for others, but you are so off the mark from the personal experience I have had with my wife, it is hard for me to believe you have even been to Colombia.

My "third world" wife constantly urges me to stand up straight when I walk, dress nicer when we go out, don't burp at the dinner table, fills my lunch with salads and other things that take into consideration calories and cholesteral, has filled my house with plants in just 5 weeks of living here, passed her driver's license test on the first try, and endless other things that are indicative of her not being disadvantaged in any way in this "first world country" and she seems to have no problem at all relating to her "aristocratic first-world" husband.

Aaron, you are so out of touch with what you are talking about that I wonder if you could pour piss out of boot with directions on the heel.

[Aaron]

... in response to You are so full of it your eyes are brow..., posted by lswote on Apr 22, 2003

You didn't understand my point about a "first world aristocrate marrying a woman from the third world who is not as fortunate".

I was explaining that you can't compare the two people, they have different realities, and most likely will not be compatible. So, given that, you can't pass judgments about their differences.  

As for aristocratic Colombianas, I'm friends with many. And, if your wife is as you described her, then she is a very classy lady.

Take Care,
Aaron

[Hiker]

... in response to You are so full of it your eyes are brow..., posted by lswote on Apr 22, 2003

You got the manner thing right!!!  Manners are a much bigger issue in Colombia.  Much like they used to be here but we have forgotten them.  You can take a family there who has nothing and they still know how to conduct themselves in the finest resturant.  Here many people from any class of society don't have a clue.  

This is an area that always amazes me in Cali.  I think I have pretty decent manners but a lot of things have become habit.  For example, I will use my fork to cut something instead of picking up the table knife.  My wife has corrected me on this a couple of times.

[Cali James]

... in response to The papaya rule is a..., posted by Aaron on Apr 21, 2003

Let me respond to a few of your remarks;

Aaron;
You're generalizing about Colombians by saying that most are unethical, lie, and are corrupt, and that Colombia is in the state that it is in because of the mentality that most people have.

James;
Of course I'm generalizing, this is a macro level discussion. I never said that most people lie or are unethical but in my dealing with people in Colombia I began to see patterns of how the papaya expression if you will is played out in real life.  My own opinion is that it is real and that it is a product of many things with curruption and unethical behavior at the top of the list.  Longs periods of curruption from the government on down to the church and even into the family, where infidelity is out of control, all affect the psychy of a people.  I think the papaya is really just a product of this.  This national pschy of distrust, negatively impacts Colombia in many ways.  For me it is obvious and you see it in the day to day interaction you have with people.  It also affects the economy as resources are under-utilized or inefficiently used because the lack of a fully developed infrastructure. The situation in Colombia is complex and I'm not putting the blame for all it's problems at the foot of the papaya.  What I'm saying is that little progress will occur in Colombia IMO until faith in institutions and each other are restored.  

Aaron;
And if you had such strong negative feelings and/or thoughts about Colombians, then why in the world were you there looking for a wife in the first place?

James;
I like to think that I have positive feelings about people in general and Colombians in particular as they are my adopted country of sorts.  But this does not mean I don't see problems. The world's not always black and white but many times grey.  There are many negative things happening in Colombia but that does not mean there aren't good things either.  For instance, the strong family that you often see in Colombia is a positive.  Anyway, my comments are more macro than anything else and have little to do with my feelings or sentiments for any one individual.  

Aaron;
Your making a fundamental mistake by comparing Colombian standards to USA standards. You cannot make such a comparison because the countries have different histories, and have experienced different levels of prosperity.

James;
Of course they have different histories and experiences but compare and contrast is fundamental to discourse.  You yourself are quite comfortable with comparisons with the United States when it suits your argument (remember the CEOs in their backrooms) and so I see nothing inherently wrong with it provided the comparison is meaningful.

But to be honest, I don't expect Colombia to be a miny United States economicly, this was never my point.  My point is that Colombia's economic problems are negatively affected by the papaya psychy that is so pervasive.

Aaron;
The key is to try to understand why things are the way they are, why people do the things they do, without being victumized.

James;
That's what I thought I was doing.  I am trying to understand why things are they way they are and offer some ideas about it.  I'm not sure I understand what you mean "without being victimized" but I hardly think my macro opinions about some aspects of Colombian society are creating victims.  Every culture has to take some responsibility for those things that it helped create, sometimes these things are positive sometimes these things are negative.

Aaron;
Well, you're married now. You have to face the "papaya rule" on a daily basis. I hope you're with someone that uses it to express the positive, rather than the negative. This is why it is so important to take enough time to get to know your potential partner, especially someone coming from the 3rd world who would like to live in a 1st world country.

James;
On the contrary, I don't face the papaya rule on a daily basis here in California with my wife but I do experience it on the streets of Cali when I return to Colombia. This discussion for me anyway has nothing to do with my wife and our marriage other than that my wife is Colombian.

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: The papaya rule is a..., posted by Cali James on Apr 22, 2003

POST.

The papaya cliche is nothing but a cliche. It can be used in a positive way, or a negative way by positive or negative people. It is a simple cliche. The rule is not inheritly negative. Me comprendes? Tambien, it is not wise to generalize about Colombian people by saying that "in general Colombians lie, are corrupt, and have a distorted psyche," especially when you are married to one.  

Simple,
Aaron

[Cali James]

... in response to Let me direct you back to the essence of..., posted by Aaron on Apr 22, 2003

The cliche isn't important in and of itself.  I was making an observation about a problem I see in Colombia and the papaya cliche is just an expression of it for me.  Most people I've spoken to in Cali understand that the papaya cliche in somewhat the context I was using it but I've taken it further and said that the sentiment behind the expression is so pervasive that it's become part of the national psyche if you will.  

As for your comments on my generalizing, I'm not saying the exact words you are attributing to me. I'm not saying "in general Colombians lie" rather I'm saying that lying and curruption are so pervasive in Colombian culture from top to bottom that people are distrustful of just about everything outside their immediate family.  I'm also saying that over time I believe this distrustfulness has crept into the national psche and that it negatively affects Colombia's ability to deal with the many real problems it faces.

The fact that I'm married to a Colombian is not really relevant to this discourse.

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Let me direct you back to the essenc..., posted by Cali James on Apr 22, 2003

Good points, and many of my Colombian friends (some well educated, others not) will corroborate what you say here.

The only issues that I addressed are: 1.) "no da la papaya" is simply a cliche that can be used to express positive and negative behavior; and 2.) don't make broad generalizations that corruption and lying is ingrained in the Colombian culture. It isn't. They may be common in everyday life, but that is the case for every country.

Take Care,
Aaron

[Cali James]

... in response to Cali James....I totally agree with you h..., posted by Aaron on Apr 22, 2003


You've convinced me on number one but I'm still having some problems with number two.  Perhaps ingrained is a bad word and if I have used it, my mistake.  I suppose that "ingrained" may give the impression that is so woven into the fabric of society that it can't be altered or changed.  That's not really what I mean as the language is too strong.  Perhaps a better word is pervasive.

Thanks for your comments.

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Cali James....I totally agree with y..., posted by Cali James on Apr 22, 2003

[This message has been edited by Aaron]

James,

Yes, lying and corruption are pervasive in Colombian society (not culture) unfortunately.  

There's a difference between society and culture, whereby society is more about what one experiences and how to get by from day to day. But, culture is about what values are important, and how they are taught.

I will say one thing. Colombian culture has more or less similar values as that in the USA, but because of the society there, many people forego the values that they were taught, or were not taught cultural values in the first place. That's the crux of the DOING SOMETHING THAT SHOULDN'T BE DONE, AND NOT DOING WHAT SHOULD BE DONE issue. Allot of people know what is the right thing to do because of how they were taught, but they behave in the contrary to satisfy some preceived need.  

So the task is to meet and associate with people that have similar values, and that live by those values.  

Take Care,
Aaron