Cali Vet, try this one !!!!!!

[Aaron]

[This message has been edited by Aaron]

CV,

Often times (but not always) it is important for a woman to refrain from sex before marriage with the man she loves. WHY?

Because too many guys have the "why buy the cow, when they can get the milk for free mentality".

In other words "Da la papaya, se la comen".

Good Pick. She's a beautiful lady.

Aaron

[lswote]

... in response to Cali Vet, try this one !!!!!!, posted by Aaron on Apr 22, 2003

A woman doesn't need to stop having sex before marriage, she needs to learn to be a better judge of character.  There is no way in hell I would marry ANY woman without having first established a sexual relationship with her.  It is one more area about a person that needs to be known before you make a lifetime commitment.  

I sometimes think that the reason many fundamentalists get so pissed at free-sexuality and porn is because they refrained from a healthy sexual relationship before marriage and now they are jealous of anyone getting any pleasure out of sex because they are so pissed with the dud they hooked up with.  

You owe it to yourself and your partner to explore all parts of your relationship that will have a significant impact on your future, before you are committed to that future.

Any woman who is "getting milked for free" too often is just plain ignoring red flags.  She doesn't need to refrain from sex, she needs to become better at spotting red flags.

[Celt]

... in response to Bad idea, posted by lswote on Apr 23, 2003

I guess I broke your rule of thumb and still lived happily
ever after. My wife was afraid that I wanted a Colombian mistress,
and not a wife, so she made me abstain until our wedding night. Her
family friends--from Barranquilla mostly--thought that was crazy,
especially with an (cold, passionless) American.

We have had no problems, and many beautiful moments. I took a great
leap of faith, and it worked for me. But, I realize that my case has
emotional and religious aspects that many men would not encounter.

As a rule of thumb, I think Iswrote is correct. Sex is a vital part of
a relationship, and needs to be pondered and examined like any other
part of men-women relations. Luckily, most Colombian women are just as
interested in kicking our tires as we are to kick theirs. The relationship
of American men in Colombia is not that of great lovers, at least not
compared to how Colombian women view Latin men. I spoke with a few
women who had this as their number one concern.

Are there any other pre-wedding abstainers in the group, Christian or not,
who are happy in their sexual lives? I am curious.

[lswote]

... in response to Re: Bad idea, posted by Celt on Apr 23, 2003

I don't think you were wrong, every case is different.  I probably visited my wife before my marriage more than you did yours as I went every two weeks since Miami is so convenient.  Probably 8 visits before our marriage.  It would have been real tough to not have sex with so much time together.  And I did make a concession to her beliefs in that she only spent the night with me on one visit (where we went Cartagena together) as she lived at home and spending the night with me was something she was not ready to face her parents over.

I was speaking about the bigger picture when I made my statement.  Any person who choses to igore the sexual aspects of the picture as part of their philosophy is igoring an important aspect of a relationship.  Making a reasoned concession as you did, is part of any relationship.

[ConfederateDave]

... in response to Re: Bad idea, posted by Celt on Apr 23, 2003

What a great topic.  I was having this discussion with my coworkers today about this very subject.  I think that a good sexual relationship is probably in the top 5 things in a relationship.  My thinking is this.  If the girl is a virgin ( I think we would all agree that this is rare, but could happen)  I would be willing to wait until my wedding night.  I guess you would have to really trust your woman to tell you  the truth, (I hope you would if you are going to marry her).  If she has had sex before, but wants to wait for some reason, I do not think it is out of line to ask what things she likes and you like in a sexual relationship.  How you bring up this subject is the trick.  I am still trying to figure it out.  I would think she would want to know what you like also.  What if you are into S&M of something.  It is a bad time to find this out on the wedding night.  If they say I like normal sex, what is normal to you and me may be two different things.  I think that we all have put a lot of time and our hearts into our relationships.  I understand that there are men out there that go to SA just for sex, however, if you are writing or emailing everyday, sending gifts spending a good amount of money to go and visit her you are probally in it for the long hall.  If not actually doing it she does not want, then I think that a long discussion is not out of the question.  ConfederateDave

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Re: Bad idea, posted by ConfederateDave on Apr 24, 2003

[This message has been edited by Aaron]

Hi,

You will be surpised that when you start getting closer to the woman, and have some mutual chemistry going in the beginning; she will be willing to discuss details about her sexual practices. But, you have to be sensitive and gentle with her. Also, for Latinas when a guy is sensitive, gentle, and warm; it's a big sexual turn on for them. They're not going to make judgments about how good in bed you will be simply by the buldge in your pants, or how vigorously you move about from place to place. For the most part, for them sexuality is based on warmth and tenderness; so just giving a hug, kissing, caressing, and eye contact will help make her think you will be sexually compatible. A gringo that can't do these kinds of things is considered "frio" and his lady will end up looking somewhere else, which is rightfully so.    

Many latinas don't mind discussing this before marriage, but they wont discuss such matters with just anyone. Also, just because she discusses such issues with you, and may even be a "hottie" in a good way of course, doesn't mean that she will have sex before she gets married. I've met, and dated a few women who were very feminine, sensual, and enjoyed sex; but they told me straight out, NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE. If you are still single, take a trip to Bucaramanga. The women are beautiful, sensual, and conservative too. Calenas are great women too, but try something new, soooooo many guys go to Cali or Bogota without seeing other places.

I don't think it is necessarily a requirement for ALL PEOPLE TO ABSTAIN FROM SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE. It's a personal decision that I made, and I am happy with.

Yes, religions say it is the proper thing to do, but not all people subscribe fully to all religious practicies.

My decision isn't so much based on "religious" reasons, but more so my personal spirituality has caused me to take this road.

However, the vultures on this board tried to jump....

Well, to heck with them anyway.

Aaron

[Brazilophile]

... in response to ConfederateDave to address your concerns..., posted by Aaron on Apr 24, 2003

Aaron,

I am not going to criticize your personal decisions regarding your sexual activity.  I do criticize your generalizations about Latin women's attitudes towards sexual compatibility.

If the women you attract to yourself say that FOR THEM sexuality is based on warmth and tenderness and a man being sensitive, gentle, and warm is a sexual turn on, then fine.  But for you to extrapolate that to ALL Latin women is preposterous!

Sex is used to express romantic love more in Latin culture than in US culture.  For most Latin men and women, the more passionate the sex, the greater the evidence of passionate feelings of romantic love toward the sex partner.  This is confirmed by several Puerto Rican and Dominican male friends, who claim that if a man is NOT sexually vigorous for a period of time without good reason (illness, injury, extreme worry, etc.) the Latin wife or girlfriend will assume and CONCLUDE that his love for her has faded and that he is being unfaithful.  

I tend to agree with Yalg and another poster who imply that if a Latina wants to be sexually active with you and you decline or resist, you will find yourself alone right quick!

I suspect you are projecting the US based "new sensitive male" doctrine onto the women in Latin America.  But I am sure that as you gain experience with Latinas from LA, you will realize that what is sexually attractive in men for Latin women is very different from that for US women.  Personally, I applaud that difference.

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: ConfederateDave to address your conc..., posted by Brazilophile on Apr 24, 2003

[This message has been edited by Aaron]

This is from Aaron,

Passion = Warmth, Tenderness, AND Romance; the same Romance that you yourself claim is so important with Latinos to express romantic love during sex.  

You can passion without sex and you can have sex without passion. Any latina will tell you that. Don't get the cart before the horse, in order to have passionate sex, you need to have passionate feelings.

Also being sexually vigorous is not what I posted. I posted "moving vigorously from place to place"; which was used to imply a cold stiff, insenstive, not gentle, unromatic, technical, sun of a gun who wants to jump straight into the sack without hours of tender foreplay (i.e., a type of person who lets their lust creep up on them so badly that they don't consider the emotional needs of their partner during love-making).
That is the type of person which I am not.  

Now go Samba,
Aaron

[Jeff S]

... in response to Re: Bad idea, posted by Celt on Apr 23, 2003

Most of the Asian board were abstainers with their younger Filipina wives, and I haven't read any complaining posts, in fact most post the opposite. Though I wasn't an abstainer, I do subscribe to the theory that a good relationship leads to good sex and not vice versa.

In nearly all cultures outside the US, women consider it their duties to keep their husbands satisfied, sexually or otherwise, if for no other reason than to keep them from straying. Isn't that one of the main reasons we look in foreign countries?

Just my 2 cents worth.

- Jeff

[jeff a1]

... in response to Re: Bad idea, posted by Celt on Apr 23, 2003

Luisa and I abstained before marriage, and we have suffered no 'ill effects' because of it. Ther is nothing abnormal nor naive in abstaining from sex before marriage, even if one or both have been sexually active in the past.

The average US male vastly overstates the importance of sex within a marriage--and I teach courses in the marriage and family, partnering, and life course, so I'm neither ignorant of the subject nor speaking from my personal opinion.

Passion alone isn't enough to make a relationship work, especially since passion tends to decline somewhere between six and 18 months into a relationship.

Passion doesn't disappear, and it may have occasional resurgences, but it is much lower for a couple married two years or longer than for a dating couple or newliweds.

Abstaining or participating in sex doesn't change the average decline. Do some marriages maintain high passion for years? Certainly. The overwhelming majority don't. Obviously, some other factors, like getting along, intimacy, shared expectations, are important.

Besides, when I was in the 101st Airborne, we had a saying, "There ain't no such thing as bad sex."

[wizard]

... in response to Re: Re: Bad idea, posted by jeff a1 on Apr 24, 2003

that yes, there ain't no such thing as bad sex, but there is a GRANDE difference between just having sex and REALLY GOOD sex...

I agree that the passion slips from a relationship after a period of time, no matter what you do... But having a great sex life helps to diminish the effects of that "comfortable" stage that most relationships go through...

There's nothing wrong per se with not having sex before marriage, and it's each couples choice on which way to go... But having said that, I would not make a committment as serious as marriage without assuring both myself and my potential wife that we satisfied each other in the sack...

my 2 cents...

[Celt]

... in response to Re: Re: Bad idea, posted by jeff a1 on Apr 24, 2003

My wife's motivations to abstain before marriage were
very complex, but I can summarize them loosely with the
phrase "intercontinental trust walk." She was not an
agency girl, but she had heard plenty about lonely, horny
American men in Colombia, and their one-week performances
as sincere gentleman in order to get married. She was also
not a virgin. She had lived with someone in Bogota for
seven years. This experience--his drinking, drug taking,
and above all serial cheating--made the task of establish-
ing trust between us very difficult, and required alot of
patience.

We also had a unique experience which lead me to believe
that I could endure the chaste courtship: on our first
date, she stopped me as we were walking and asked me to
put my hands--face up--in front of hers. She placed her
hands on mine. It felt like electric sparks up my spine.
Our kisses were similar. I felt that this woman did not
lack passion in general, or towards me in particular.

There was also the aspect of her father and her older
brother. They knew that I "had come a courtin'" and did
not know anything about me. I wanted to show the family
that I would respect any of their considerations. I could
tell the father wanted her to abstain.

Our courtship was also long on intense discussions,
exchanges of hypothetical situations--"what would you do
if ~ occurred to us"--and goal-establishing. We knew that
our spell of passion would taper off, but our responsibilit-
ies toward each other and the respective families would
loom larger in time.

Reading this, it sounds like a match between a librarian
and a nerd. But, we had one hell of a passionate honeymoon,
we are very passionate these days. I cannot generalize that
the course of abstaining is better, it just worked for our
circumstances.

[Yalg]

... in response to Re: Re: Bad idea, posted by jeff a1 on Apr 24, 2003

You say the average U.S. male vastly overstates the importance of sex in a marriage.  I say if a U.S. male does not make sex the number one priority in a relationship with a latina he will soon see the door.  You can talk all you want about the order of priorities but having been with a number of latinas in my life, I can say that if you dont service them regularly you are in for some serious doo doo.  Not saying its the only thing, but you would be surprised how important it becomes compared to other issues when it declines.  

A large percentage of men marry a woman so they can have a good looking regular piece.  If that sounds callous, so be it, but its true. Maybe they are in love too, but men marry for different reasons than women do and most men get into a relationship with a woman for different reasons than the woman does.  I would be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of men only go out with a woman to have sex and could care less about anything else. Later, feelings may develop but in the beginning he doesnt give a rip what she is even saying.  All he is thinking about is the trim.  So I dont think you can underestimate sex in any relationship.  Its the glue that holds a marriage together and if the couple arent getting any at home, then they will surely get it someplace else.

[Mark33]

... in response to disagree mucho..., posted by Yalg on Apr 24, 2003

Sex is very important. That is why it is also important to see if there is mutual attraction. Just because a woman is married and accomodating does not mean she is satisfied or happy with her partner. She may believe it is her obligation.I know a few foreign women who married American men. I hate to say this, but I see a lot of one sided attraction for the most part. It seems most of the men are much more into the women physically. You can just tell.
   That is why I have made sure that the woman I chose was crazy for me. I have had a few relationships were the sex was ok, but the woman was not really into me( I am not proud of this). There were many times I was in denial and made excuses to myself why she was lukewarm. I then realized that sexual chemistry is a 2 way street. She is either hot for you or not. Otherwise, sex will become an obligation and a chore, rather than a need.

[Yalg]

... in response to Cali Vet, try this one !!!!!!, posted by Aaron on Apr 22, 2003

How many women in this day and age are virgins when they are married?  If your looking for in in SA then get ready to look for quite the long time......Most start as teenagers just like everywhere else.  I think you are about as out of touch with reality as anyone who has ever posted here.  I feel sorry for you because you have been going south for 5 years and have come up empty.  dont you think it may be time to change strategies?