Decent income in Col?

[DavidMN]

Hi,

I'm curious about what's considered a decent wage in one of the larger
Colombian cities.  For background:
The US minimum wage is $5.15/hr x 2080 hrs/yr = $10,712 annual income.

The Colombian minimum wage is 332,000 pesos/mo + 37,500 pesos/mo
(transportation subsidy) = 369,500 pesos/mo divided by 2915 COP/USD = $127 USD/mo x 12 months = $1521 annual income.

For the sake of argument, let's say a decent income for a young, single professional in the US is 5 times the minimum wage or $53,560.  I know that's not a lot of money for a coastal city, but we're talking averages, and I recently read that starting salaries for undergraduates are between $30,000 and $45,000 for a B.S. in Business Administration.

So, five times the Colombian minimum wage is $7605 USD per year or
22,168,575 COP. Is 22 million pesos a year considered a decent income for a young, single Colombian professional?

David

P.S. If I was the economics minister of Colombia, I'd do what some of their neighbors have done over the years and chop off about three decimal places from the peso. (haha)

[Brazilophile]

... in response to Decent income in Col?, posted by DavidMN on Apr 17, 2003

What qualifies as a decent wage in Colombia, or any other country, is determined by the cost of living in that country.  Comparisons to incomes earned in the US are very misleading because the cost of living in the US is much greater than that in developing countries.  

Housing costs are the best example.  House prices and rents in San Francisco, New York, Los Angeles, Miami, London, Tokyo, etc.  are extremely high.  One needs to earn a high income in order to live in those cities.  In developing countries land costs are much lower and labor costs are much lower so it is very inexpensive to construct housing.  

I looked through some online newspapers for apartment rents in some Brazilian cities.  Apartments which were not on the beach were very inexpensive.  I found several ads for 3 and 4 bedroom apartments renting at R300 - R450 per month.  At an 3.5 R/$ exchange rate that's about $90-$130 per month.  Using the guideline that housing costs should not be more than 1/3 of total monthly income, then $400 per month, $5,000 per year, seems to be a liveable, possibly comfortable, income.

[Jersey Mike]

... in response to Re: Decent income in Col?, posted by Brazilophile on Apr 18, 2003

I do not know if things have changed much, but I used to date a woman from Belo Horizonte, Brazil, who told me that an upscale apartment (condo) could be purchased for the approximate equivalent of US$15-25,000.  Of course, this was around 1995 or so.  One thing that keeps the down cost of housing in some of these countries is the lack of mortgage financing available for home purchasers.  Buyers must pay all cash because lenders don't want to risk the high inflation rates.

[DallasSteve2]

... in response to Decent income in Col?, posted by DavidMN on Apr 17, 2003

When my wife lived in Cali she was running a mattress store out of her house in a mid-to-poor neighborhood.  I asked her what her profit was in a typical month and she said about 500,000 pesos.  I don't know if that's true, but it may be.  I spend more than that on groceries each month.  I don't know how they do it.

Steve

[Pete E]

... in response to Decent income in Col?, posted by DavidMN on Apr 17, 2003

I think very few people make that wage in Cali.1,000,000 pesos a month ($350) would be a good salary.A doctor I know,a surgeon,20 years experience,makes about $700.
Its a whole different world.Makes you wonder who buys things in some of the shops in Chipi Chapi.I think the answer is old family money and drug money(and gringos & gringo's girls).Not good salaries.
I think 40% of the people actually make the minimum wage. 20% make nothing,they are unemployed.
What I have been told.Seems there has to be some people making money.

Pete

[Cali vet]

... in response to Re: Decent income in Col?, posted by Pete E on Apr 17, 2003

And the cars these people drive! Grand Cherokees and Landcruisers "del ano" not to mention the Mercedez and favorite toy the Harley. However I understand they're as credit happy as Americans even buying something like tennis shoes in installlments. They also have a system I'm curious about whereby they're given the option of various "cuotas" when using a credit card. Instead of the whole amount being charged at once it can be broken into four equal consecutive charges. Surely the store, Exito for example is charging interest for that service which is in addition to that charged by the credit card company. Seems wallet-boggling to me.

[Ralph]

... in response to Re: Re: Decent income in Col?, posted by Cali vet on Apr 18, 2003

My novia worked as a bartender in a decent all inclusive resort. her monthly salary was $4,000 pesos which at the time was about $220 USD. The peso has devalued quite a bit and it would now be $160 USD. She also receieved a "bonus" based on the amount of guests in that particular month. In a "good" month, she'd get about $6,000 pesos which would now be about $240 USD.

They are financing crazy in the DR as well. They quote interest rates for monthly interest! Big signs touting 2.9% per MONTH!!!!!  Couple in a luxury taxon expensive cars which could make them 40% more expensive than in the states, and only "old money" and some "hustlers" can afford them. they are all over the place though. Even saw a Diablo or two!!

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Decent income in Col?, posted by Cali vet on Apr 18, 2003

I think big buck cars  = drug money or old family money.Just about nobody could afford them on any salary from a job.
Rent may be low but when you go to a store like Exito or Superlay food is almost as expensive as here and sundry items are more.Also any appliances or electronic goods are more.I think these type stores charge alot more than other places a poor person could buy food and other items.They could afford to give credit at low rates with the prices they charge.Why does alot of stuff cost more there than here?I think some retailers have a monopoly.They just charge what the market will bear.
And I think there is alot of under the table money going around.Everything is susceptable to bribes.Those on the recieving end are probably alot of our shoppers.Like the cops that will stop nice cars to shake people down for money.
I saw something that was scary.It said Cali was the most dangerous city in the western hemisphere.Thats something to think about.
I presume you stay low key to stay out of trouble.I am concerned for a mutual friend who has money and lets it be known.He is looking to buy a finca.Bad idea I think.I need to talk to him.He says you are begging to be kidnapped with your hiking trips.I think he is doing the same throwing money around.

Pete

[Cali vet]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Decent income in Col?, posted by Pete E on Apr 18, 2003

Pete- most of my Colombia hiking of late has been with groups like Pico de Loro and Eco-Aventura and they keep their ears close to the ground. None of them wants to be kidnapped either. As to keeping low profile I'd say yessiree! Just being a gringo means automaticly that you are rich. In fact all you have to do is look like a gringo.
A blond blue-eyed Latvian scientist here complained of that when her blond little boy was kidnapped a few weeks ago. I've taken to saying I'm Canadian. We already live in strata 5. My wife wants me to buy a car but I don't want one. Anything but a rattletrap Renault Master would make me look more "adinerado" (also I can get anywhere I want to go without one). I do worry about my profile and try to keep it low. I'd really like my own finca up by kilometro dieziocho too but everyone tells me bad idea for a gringo. Our mutual friend has family with an ear to the ground and of course he's not talking about being a permanenet resident up there so maybe there's less risk.

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Decent income in Col?, posted by Cali vet on Apr 18, 2003

One of the problems gringos encounter about risk in Cali is a lack of concern from locals they may meet,including in laws.Many of these will warn you about certain things but think nothing of others.My wife would not let me go shopping with her in downtown Cali because I am such an obvious gringo but doen't worry much about things like kidnapping at all.
I think there are 2 different attitudes about risk from Cali locals.People with no money think little about kidnapping.They really are not kdnapping targets because of no money,same for their friends,relatives,ect.
People with money have a totally diffeent attitude.They usualy have friends or relatives that have been kidnapped,extorted,robbed.They know they are at risk.
My wife would live in Cali again in a flash.She thinks little of he risk.She thinks people exagerate the risks.But if we displayed anything like the lifestyle we could afford we,especially me, would be at risk.We would graduate from her economic class to a new one with much more risk.There's a reason wealthy Colombians who can leave have.Many are sitting it out in Miami.They are scared,for good reason.
I agree with you getting a car is a bad idea,for lots of reasons.Cabs are cheap so it makes no $ sence.It labels you as someone with money,exactly what you do not want.The driving habits are awfull and if you did have a wreck being a gringo would set you up for problems.Plus the extortion from the cops.They stop local people in nice cars.If they stopped a gringo they would really think they hit the jackpot.The best safety measure for a gringo is to be invisable.
When I was staying at the old Crystall Palace,former home of Latin Love in December 1999 we were awakened by automatic weapon fire.It went on for some time. I was thinking someone was getting wiped out in a drug war.Actually the guy who owned the huge estate with several acres and a lake behind Latin Love had been kidnapped and released.He and his buddies got drunk and were celebrating shooting their guns off.No police ever showed up.
Also I got taken by a Colombian to a restaurant above the statue of the guy who founded Cali.He swore it was safe.About 6 months later everybody in the restaurant was kidnapped.
I guess the main reason I would not live in Cali is I would have to limit myself too much to stay safe.But the thought of a strata 5 house for $300-500 a month is intreiging.I think about it when I write out my huge house payment.I guess I think of it as a fall back plan if all else fails.

Pete

[cancunhound]

... in response to Percieved risk by Cali residents, posted by Pete E on Apr 18, 2003

I think it's all a matter of perception of the "risk" - and willingness to deal with it.  To live in Colombia you must love it.  I would not want to retire there if I were constantly paranoid about safety - go to Costa Rica - although I'm not so sure average crime in San Jose is much different than Cali.  I feel safer in my condo in Cali than at my suburban home back in Dallas.  Granted, I don't have 24 hour guarded security in Dallas.  It's a modest condo, I travel by taxi, and try not to wander about too much alone - and only drive in the countryside with knowledgable locals.  However, that can't always be avoided - so just a very good sense of your surroundings is a must.  2 weeks ago I was in downtown Cali trying to find a electronics part (Cali Vet you probably are familiar with the "electronics corridor") - this was arguably a very bad part of town - and I certainly did not feel very "safe" there.  I would, however, live full time in Colombia if my scenario permitted it - but bottom line is my Calena has become too attached to the U.S. and would not consider it.  But cost of living and access to affordable quality health care is very attractive there IMHO.

[Cali vet]

... in response to Re: Percieved risk by Cali residents, posted by cancunhound on Apr 22, 2003

Cancun I don't know that I've been to the "electronics corridor". I've been to that big building on Av Estacion halfway between Av Sexta and Tercera (Av Las Americas) where there must be two hundred tiny shops selling computers and such but I doubt you'd call it risky so must be a different area.
Who knows maybe I'm living on borrowed time (and knock on wood) but I just haven't had any bad experiences or close calls in the five or six years I've been coming to Colombia or since I've moved. Caution is a given in this country of course but that doesn't mean you have to hole up in some luxury hotel every minute you're here in order not to get kidnapped. I'll repeat something from a post I made in January. At a hostel in Bogota I met people from fifteen different countries who were traveling to and from nearly all points in Colombia and beyond by bus...including a few Americans. If I myself had to go to the capital tomorrow and didn't want to spend the plane fare I wouldn't hesitate to take the day bus.

[Cali vet]

... in response to Percieved risk by Cali residents, posted by Pete E on Apr 18, 2003

Pete- I agree with just about everything you said the only exception living in Colombia of course.

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Percieved risk by Cali residents, posted by Cali vet on Apr 18, 2003

I haven't ruled out living in Colombia,I am just thinking out loud about some of my concerns.There certainly is an appeal.
In your opinion do you think most ladies would prefer to stay in Colombia if they were married to a gringo with what was a very good income for there,or would they rather come to the US? My wife says she would like to live there but I'm not sure. I guess you would rule out the girls who's prime motivation was to come here.
Also,tempt me some more with the economics.I know utilities can be high.My brother in law runs up the phone bill to $100 or more,all local calls,alot of it being on line with the computer,local calls being charged for,and the speed and connection is awfull.You or someone mentioned a dsl line,free utilities and even medical care and gym membership.
I have a $40,000 pension plus will get SS before too long,
$800-$1800 a month depending on wether I take it at 62,66 or 70(god who thinks that far out).My pension includes a 3% cost of living increase per year plus medical /dental that would pay 70% even in Colombia.
Would I be in fat city there?What is there to do for safe fun for a retiree?Would a high rise condo be safer than a house even in a stata 5?
I sometimes get tired of working to make the kind of money I need to to live well  here.Its  strugle right now.Then I start fantasizing about kicking back someplace.I wish Cali had a beach and some safety.Cartegena,Santa Marta maybe? I have also been looking in to Panama a little.
You seem happy with your choice,it seems to be working for you.

Pete

[Cali vet]

... in response to Still thinking about living there, posted by Pete E on Apr 19, 2003

Pete-I think for most family is a huge issue. My wife thought she wanted to move to the US at first. After being around her and her family for a while now I can't even  imagine how miserable she would be in the states without being able to see her mother, two sisters and girlfriends once a week. Married guys up there must have some serious phone bills! My wife comes from a stata 2 barrio and now she's living with the acoutrements of strata five. My cleaning lady commented to me the other day that my wife has everything right away; new stove with oven (at her home a sort of two burner gas hotplate) new fridge, new washing machine (had never used one in her life) nice furniture etc. She said had my wife married a Colombian anywhere near her economic bracket it would be years before she had these things. Which reminds me of something else. This is a pretty fixed class society. More often than not in these agency marriages girls from a lower strata will end up with a well educated and well paid professional for a husband. From what I've seen that would be pretty unlikely between two Colombians here. Anyway so like you saying my wife has moved up several strata but still has all the comforts of her family life and they're fifteen minutes away. What's not to like?

As to tempting you with costs the following total about $475 a month: Rent, two phone lines, cleaning lady 3 days a week, internet, cable tv, elec/water/trash, security, top of the line health insurence plan for two and a furnished weekend cottage with utilities up in the mountains a half hour from Chipichapi.

For beach why don't you look into living in Rodadero (Santa Marta). There's an airport so you wouldn't even need to take the bus to get to Barranquilla or Cartagena for weekends.