Ethics,lies and what you are willing to acept

[Pete E]

I guess its slow Sunday for me so here I am on computer.My wife is working,I was going to sun bathe but its cloudy.And its been a little boring around here anyway.
So let me pull up a theme that has ben going on at Latin Womanm List. Our buddy Dallas Steve admitted there was a difference between what he says someone SHOULD do and what he himself has actually done.Its a brave and true admission I think.Here goes my response.

Steve makes an excellent point.There is what someone(usually not us) SHOULD do and then there is what a person actually does.The action is not a philosophical question,it is something that will affect your life,sometimes immediately for what emotionally would be a percieved negative.The action has an emotional element,just BullSh--ing about it doesn't.
So there is what we might think we should do,if we thought about it in a clear moment,and what we actually do in the heat of the game.I think a person is rarely caught completely unaware.There are ALWAYS red flags,even if only on an intuitive level.The question is what do we DO when the flag appears.If the issue does not seem especially crucial we may opt for the option that keeps the relationship intact for the moment.And of course if the relationship turns out badly we can,if we are honest,review all the flags that were overlooked along the way.The result is usually a feeling of  "I knew that ",along with feeling foolish for having allowed it to occur.
But we were just doing what we did,living life a day at a time.Hopefully the hindsight will preclude it from happening again,at least in the very same way.
As to the ethics of looking in a purse.I can think of a situation where that might be the thing to do.Suppose you are,you think,being constantly lied to,but the person denies it in every case,even in the presense of alot of other evidence.Looking in the purse,especially if she is present,might be a way to nail it down.And if she is standing there I think it is not unethical.To be sneaky about it perhaps.
Of course,if a person has these doubts they are probably well founded and we could be looking for proof to end a situation we know we shouldn't be in anyway.
Somebody said it before and got alot of flax,but I think many,probably most,I won't say all,Colombianas will lie.Its almost automatic sometimes.Not wanting to confront things a story comes up instead.When your Colombiana wants your participation in an excuse to avoid telling somebody the truth you begin to see.I think its cultural,commonly done,to tell a lie to avoid confrontation.Which brings up the question if they will lie about that what else will they lie about? Maybe nothing important regarding your relationship if they really love you,but maybe even here.
I think our culture leads us to be moral purists,which I agree with.A person is a lier or they are not.Its not as clear cut with Cololmbians I don't think.Its a big gray area open to excuse,rationalization and denial.It seems to be lies,rationalised as unimportant lies,are a way of life.
I have experienced this before,in a more blatant way.I was in the car business for several years.Many people in the car business were Persian.My impression was that lying was just culturally accepted as a way of bargaining.They thought nothing at all of it.It didn't have a moral flavor to them.Just looking out for yourself.I will say that some( with major exceptions) of my non car business Persian aquaintances did not strike me this way.It was sort of a business thing.
Where are we headed here? I think being a moral purist and dating or marrying a Colombiana make be a difficult road.Maybe you have a rare one that will not lie,or maybe she loves you enough to not lie to you.If so you are fortunate and have avoided what is I think a very common issue.
I know this can be difficult to hear,you may love your wife/novia and want to defend her honor.But just look at it and see if there is any truth here.

Pete

[Jersey Mike]

... in response to Ethics,lies and what you are willing to ..., posted by Pete E on Apr 20, 2003

Pete,
You raise an excellent point, because many cultures regard honesty and lying much differently than we do.  (I had previously regarded latin culture to be more closely aligned with our value system than FSU or Asian cultures, but I am beginning to reconsider this position based on both personal experience and the experiences of others I know, plus the postings on this board.)  I think that we tend to see honesty in terms of black & white, but other cultures see it in many shades of grey.  Perhaps this difference is due in part to economic necessity, but deceitfulness can become institutionalized in some cultures.  

On the other hand, my first wife ,who was an AW, used to insist that she was an absolutely honest person.  However, she used "honesty" as an excuse to say things that were cruel and hurtful instead of an occasional white lie to avoid confrontation.

[DallasSteve2]

... in response to Ethics,lies and what you are willing to ..., posted by Pete E on Apr 20, 2003

Pete

As we know I ignored a stadium full of red flags during my marriage to my "ex-Colombiana".  Many readers assume that I stayed in the marriage because I couldn't walk away.  That's not the case.  I stayed in the marriage because she kept asking me to stay.  She kept telling me that she loved me and wanted to be with me.  I should not have taken her words at face value but I did.  I think the reason I took her words at face value was because I was very much in love with her and I wanted to believe what she was saying.

The fine point I am trying to make here might be illustrated with a comparison to my current wife.  She has two men in Colombia who still keep begging her to come back and marry them.  They can't let go.  They are obsessed.  I may have been infatuated, but letting go is not a problem.  I've been through enough of these that I know how to walk away.  (I used to sing La Moscas' song to my ex-wife: "Yo rompere tus fotos, yo quemare tus cartas, para no pensarte mas.")  Other men may stay because they can't walk away.  I booked a flight to Cali.  Granted, for two weeks I asked her if she wanted to come back, but then it was off to Villa Princesa.

So what difference does this fine point make?  In the land of the foreign brides a man may find himself with a girlfriend or fiance or wife who doesn't love him, but wants to maintain the relationship for other reasons.  If she turns on the charm it can be very easy to ignore the red flags and keep riding that wave.  I stayed because my ex kept begging me to stay.  I always told her if she didn't want to be with me to set me free so I could find someone who really wants to be with me.  As the Talking Heads sang: "Watch out.  You might get what you're after."

Steve

PS. And don't tell me "denial is not just the state of mind of the people that live near a river in Egypt".

[Cali James]

... in response to Ethics,lies and what you are willing to ..., posted by Pete E on Apr 20, 2003

Pete, I always go back to the Papaya rule when trying to understand some of the behavior I've experienced when in Colombia.   The papaya rule is basicly about taking advantage of oppurtunity when the occasion arises and my experience is that many times this comes at the expense of things like ethics, truth or even love .  Of course in Colombia, the Colombians themselves are very aware of the papaya and so people tend to be very suspicious of others in just about everything but especially in business or in matters of money.  

I think relationships are a different matter and consistemnt lying can't be excused away by things like papaya's. Trust is at the foundation of any successful relationship and a person who lies in a relationship is attacking the relationship at it's core. I don't think lying should be tolerated between novios or spouses but I also believe that some things in our lives are private and don't need to be revealed either.  There may be times when a white lie is appropriate but a white lie is when you tell your girlfriend she's the most beautiful woman in the world but not when you tell her you worked late at work but really you watched football with your buddies.

Cali James

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Ethics,lies and what you are willing..., posted by Cali James on Apr 21, 2003

James,
The papaya rule sounds interesting.I get the flaovor of it but would like to know more.
I was commenting on truthfullness,or avesion to lying in general.I think there is a cultral difference here.In a relationship the magnitude of the issue could be an important point.Lying about important issues is different from a story or excuse approach vs uncomfortable admissions.
For me personally the lies are not about huge things.A bigger problem is denial or getting stonewalled when I want to discuss something important.An unwillingness to be open about things is different from actual lying,but basically dishonest if even in a passive way.It can be extremely frustrating.

Pete

[Cali James]

... in response to Re: Re: Ethics,lies and what you are wil..., posted by Pete E on Apr 21, 2003

Jim C first wrote about papayas and going back to the archives you can read some of his comments below;

http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/latin/archives/display.php?archive=000098&id=31933

http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/latin/archives/index000099.php#32139

http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/latin/archives/display.php?archive=000067&id=23596

[DaveyRich1]

... in response to Re: Ethics,lies and what you are willing..., posted by Cali James on Apr 21, 2003

James E-Mail me your phone number we have moved to Las Vegas would like to see you and your new bride
                   Take Care
                       Dave and Zuleima