Colombia will always be a haven for brides...

[Yalg]

Last week, I watched the killing Pablo special on the history channel. Since then, I have watched it again twice along with the accompanying documentary on drugs and mayhem in Colombia.  The one item that struck me most was a fact that I cant get out of my mind.  A couple years or so before his demise (maybe longer) Pablo made an offer to pay off the National Debt of Colombia in return for a vote in the Colombian parliament for a no extradition clause. This would allow him to give himself up to authorities with no fear of being taken to the USA, which was his biggest nightmare.  The fact that this thug narcotrafficer had the billions to back this up makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up.  It illustrates just how f,upd this country is as far as fighting drugs and terror.  

Never forget that even though Pablo was killed, his legacy lives on in the daily lives of Colombians.  He was replaced by smaller, but just as ruthless, organizations that have just as deeply penetrated the Colombian political structure.  Payoffs and bribes are the order of the day, and probably always will be because the people accept it and have no real will to defeat it.  The proof of these words is that nothing has really changed there since all this started decades ago. The Colombian military is incompetent and unbable to defeat the FARC and the right wing paramilitaries will never go away.  The USA cant get involved because we are busy elsewhere and have other goals considered more important than defeating the war on drugs.  

Conclusion.....Colombia is a haven for wives because the country is in chaos and the lives of the individual colombianas will most likey never change.   This is truly sad, however it is the truth and each and every man must realize this when making the tough decisions.  Imagine if Colombia was a truly prosperous country and had no civil war, mass murders, and rampant kidnappings..how many ladies would want to leave if these things did not occur.......

Just something to remember when you are deciding what country to search for you future "love" and what her motivations are.......take it for what its worth, just a note to say how I feel and my opinion.......its not meant impune anyones marriage or current relationship...all things being equal nobody can truly know anothers motivations....

[DavidMN]

... in response to Colombia will always be a haven for brid..., posted by Yalg on Mar 29, 2003

This has been a good discussion. With respect to your comment about the people of Colombia "just accepting the situation and having no will to change it" I think that's the key point. Many countries have civil wars, and I believe the US civil war remains our bloodiest conflict to date.

Unfortunately, there's something about Colombia that makes them prone to unending violence. The current "war" dates back to La Violencia so for 55 years they haven't been able to figure things out. Maybe the drug profits of the last two decades have prolonged the conflict, but that still leaves three plus decades of senseless violence.

I'm trying to learn about the hate that drives "civilized" people to use chainsaws and machetes on each other, gouge out eyes, kill pregnant women and rip out unborn children. And I read a story a couple of days ago about the AUC beheading someone and then playing soccer. This happened in 1997, not medieval times. Remember when half a million people were butchered in Rwanda?  Some editorials said "it's Africa,they're a bunch of tribal savages."  I guess they forgot about the Bogotaza, Chile, most of Central America, Peru's Shining Path, and Argentina's use of genital torture and pushing people out of airplanes.

So you're right, the place is a mess and it's hard to have long term hope. Some people say Colombia is unique because of the way they were exploited by the Spanish, because of an ancient resentment in taxes due the Viceroy in Bogotá (who provided no services), or because the three ranges of the Andes make it ungovernable (out of site, out of mind). But with modern transportation and communciations those don't seem like valid excuses anymore. And some of their neighbors have similar geographies and histories but lack the perpetual violence.

[Yalg]

... in response to Re: Colombia will always be a haven for ..., posted by DavidMN on Mar 30, 2003

I completely agree with you.  Whenever you bring up this or similar topics the board has had a habit of ripping the guy to shreads.  In the past, there have been guys here in such denial about Colombia it boggles the mind.  Then you have the ones who come up with anecdotal evidence such as, "my wife would love to live there" and "I want to move there myself."  This, of course, is not realistic for the most part because most women who join agencies want to live someplace else.  There has been a mass exodus of Colombians and one need only have insight into the sheer numbers of people who have left, are trying to leave, and dream about leaving to see the real truth behind it all.  

Its true that women from other countries want to find foreign husbands.  Women from every country are on the websites looking for foreign guys, but thats not the point. The point is that for every individual woman from other LA countries looking, I would bet there are 100's of colombianas......That is not normal.  

Anyway, it doesnt matter what I think.  It only matters what each guy is comfortable with when going through this process.  As for me, I have too much doubt in my mind and I feel that there would always be a question in my mind if I continued to search there.  I just cant bring myself to do it anymore.  There are guys who can actually pick up women from there on the internet and get them to travel here sight unseen if they have a tourist visa.  I know because I did it.  Was a big mistake and not a good idea if anyone is trying it for themselves...

[Patrick]

... in response to Re: Re: Colombia will always be a haven ..., posted by Yalg on Mar 30, 2003

I just did a data base search and found that we've had 1.83 Colombian ladies join us for every woman from another Latin country.  We've advertised in Mexico, Panana, Venezuela, Peru, Ecuador, Honduras, and Colombia, but our advertising in Colombia has been about three times more extensive than any other country.

I think Ecuador would have to have the second highest response rate to our advertisements after Colombia.

The one thing I'd like to point out is that no matter what country a man picks, it's invariably one with a much poorer economy than the US.  You don't see many men going to countries with first world economies to look for a wife.  There's not much incentive for any women to leave there and without incentive, few people are willing to marry someone from another country and immigrate.

I see far, far more marriages end for reasons other than the woman using the man for a green card.  In almost all of the cases I've heard about, the woman has returned to her country after divorce and in the majority of cases, it was voluntarily.

I think men would be better off worrying about making bad choices based on an almost complete focus on looks rather than on character.  In all the countries we discuss here the woman is most likely bettering her economic situation by immigrating here.  In the case of Colombia, they also gain a more secure environment where they don't have to worry about political instability and guerilla warfare. That probably makes them more willing to consider the idea of marrying outside their country than almost all the other Latin countries.

Men should pick whatever country(ies) they prefer and concentrate on making a good choice for long term success rather than analyze the motives of the ladies to death. From what I've seen over the last seven years, the main problem is a focus on looks over character.

[Cali vet]

... in response to The real numbers, posted by Patrick on Mar 30, 2003

Some Colombians, especially well off ones will cite political instability and guerrilla danger as reasons to go to the US but the vast majority want to go because they're convinced the streets are paved with gold.

[lswote]

... in response to Re: The real numbers, posted by Cali vet on Mar 31, 2003

Yesterday my wife and I spent the day with one of her friends from Bogota who lives in Miami.  She is 35 years old and she is in the United States on a political asylum visa.  She was a professor at a University in Colombia and was targeted by the FARC for some reason.  She was lucky enough to get out of Colombia before any harm came to her, but she has been in the United States for 3 years and I was surprised to find out she can not return to Colombia for at least 6 more years (I have no idea why).  She is single, working at close to minimum wage jobs and the only family member she has seen since she left is her sister who has a tourist visa.  She hardly views the United States as the land of opportunity.  She would love to return to Colombia to be closer to her familty and have a job that suits her talents.

[Georgina]

... in response to Not paved streets here, posted by lswote on Mar 31, 2003

I believe the reason why she can't return to Colombia for so long is her visa status. If she is here for political asylum, because her life is in danger in Colombia, how the immigration service is going to believe her if she goes back to Colombia when the terrorist groups that threated her life still active? Then immigration would assume her reasons for asking for asylum were not real and will deport her.

I think that her inability to get better job that will get her a better pay is related to her education. Has she gotten a degree here? Is her English good?

[lswote]

... in response to Re: Not paved streets here, posted by Georgina on Apr 1, 2003

She was a university professor so obviously she has a good degree of education.  She was given political asylum, but not the means to go back to college.  She doesn't have enough money to even live in her own apartment (she stays with family and friends) much less pay for college.  Her English is passable for light conversation, but a long way from being good.

[Georgina]

... in response to Re: Re: Not paved streets here, posted by lswote on Apr 1, 2003

Even is she got a Master in her country, it doesn't mean that much here. However, she may be able to convalidate some of the training she got in Colombia. It must be really frustating for him/her after being a university professor in him/her native country.

[Yalg]

... in response to The real numbers, posted by Patrick on Mar 30, 2003

Well, of course if you advertise your agency in various countries then you will get results.  But how many agencies are there that are strictly colombian versus those that advertise elsewhere?  I dont know of any agencies, maybe there are, in ecuador, paraguay, uruguay, chile, and Argentina just to name a few.  Colombia has tons of them.

[Patrick]

... in response to Re: The real numbers, posted by Yalg on Mar 30, 2003

I have no doubt that the numbers of ladies signing up with an agency in any country would be proportional to the number of ladies willing to leave that country for marriage.  Most of the agencies go where they get the most turn out and the most business, which is Colombia.

The point is that all the countries men commonly go to have ladies with incentive to leave because of the economic disparity with the US.  I certainly wouldn't rule out Colombia for fear that the ladies are more likely to be using a man for immigration.

That said, if I were currently in the search, I'd be looking in Ecuador.  I'd pick that country because there's lots of interested ladies and little competition from other gringos.  I wouldn't worry about their incentive to leave, though I would be careful about making good decisions about who I pursue, just as I did when I found my wife in Colombia about six years ago.  It makes little difference where you go.  It makes LOTS of difference how you go about it and how well you can judge people's character and motivations (including your own).

Men would be better off putting their energy into learning the language of the ladies rather than trying to figure out which country is more likely to have ladies marrying for green cards.

[wizard]

... in response to Re: Re: Colombia will always be a haven ..., posted by Yalg on Mar 30, 2003

Yalg,

First, people around here get as good as they give... Taking a back-handed swipe at the choices other's make is a very good way to start a flame battle... If you disagree with someone else's point of view, fine... But to make statements that other poster's are in denial and provide annecdotal evidence is in my mind, inflammatory... Are you trying to start some sh!t, or what???

I know a few ex-pats that live in Colombia and would never think of returning to the US... I also know a few US government employees working Colombia that plan on retiring there... Not to mention that many of the poster's here live in Colombia... What's "realistic" for you has little or no bearing on someone else's reality...

Next, just where is your exidence that most "agency" women would prefer to live somewhere else??? My experience is 180 degrees opposite... This was one question I asked every girl I met... Every one said they would prefer to live in their home country... Every one!!! I don't know how much time you've spent in Colombia or the type of girls you met, but your experience is obviously different than mine...

Again, where is your evidence that there are 100s of Colombianas searching for every 1 chica from other LA countries??? Just check out the websites my friend, the evidence is all there... And they don't backup you statement...

Everyone's experience is different... Your painting awful broad strokes based on your opinion... The only thing that p!sses me off is that your stating your opinion as fact...

I regret that you had a bad experience with a latina that came here on a tourist visa, and that you have not had a good experience in Colombia in particular... I hope you find what your searching for, regardless of country... But don't judge everyone else based on your experience...

This post was not meant to "rip you a new one", just to point out that your opinions are just that, your opinions... You need to be careful when painting broad strokes, so you don't get any one you... You started a good thread that had some interesting dialog, let's not let if digress into mud-slinging...

Entiende???

[Yalg]

... in response to Ok Yalg, here we go..., posted by wizard on Mar 30, 2003

I have eyes and I can see the websites so you and me are not looking at the same thing.

I think I said clearly near the end of my post that what i think doesnt matter.  I thought it was obvious that it was an opinion.  Sorry if you didnt see it that way.  Most of the posts here are opinion becasue it doesnt pay to quote facts or statistics.  I remember one guy who posted here before about the official government statistics of the homicide and kidnapping rate in Colombia and was roundy spanked for his trouble.  Even when you give facts there will be those who make up every excuse in the book to discount it so it doesnt do any good to give any such info.  It really doesnt.  

Anyway, perhaps I was a bit rough in my dialogue but I dont like to beat around the bush.  You should be able to say whatever you want as long as it not complete and utter BS.

[wizard]

... in response to Re: Colombia will always be a haven for ..., posted by DavidMN on Mar 30, 2003

that genocide has been a popular tool throughout the history of man... Little episodes like Genghis Kahn in Afghanistan, Pol Pot in Cambodia, Malosovich in Kosovo and of course Adolf Hitler during WWII come to mind... I could go on, but you get the point...  Ethnic/Political/Religious cleansing has always snapped the huddled masses into line... I don't feel that the violence in Colombia approaches these levels, but yes, the country is a mess...

What was the joke that was on the "Killing Pablo" documentary about Colombia, "When God created Colombia, he gave it vast beauty, fertile land and a temperate climate. Then he put the most evil race of men on the planet in Colombia to balance out the good"...

The advent of instantaneous communications and a news hungry society fuel the reporting of these events... Of course, with the press putting their own spin on things for good measure...

I stand by my statement that the human race is STILL not that far removed from the trees... Violence is our SOP... Just turn on the TV... Sometimes all you can do is shake your head and sigh...

What's that old movie, "Stop the world, I want to get off"...

[Aaron]

... in response to Colombia will always be a haven for brid..., posted by Yalg on Mar 29, 2003

[This message has been edited by Aaron]

It is common sense that the reason why so many colombian women are looking for foreign spouses is because they are looking for a way out of the hardships of their country. To find more opportunity for advancement is common sense, and human nature.

Also, I think allot of guys play negatively into the misfortunes many of the women have. Many gringos (allot  who live a meager life) realize that they can meet an unlimited number of beautiful women who are more than willing to meet a foreign man for those very reasons you mention. However, many guys take advantage of the women because they realize that the women will be naive to assume that "the guys come from a better financial situation." But, in reality the guys are nothing but paupers in their home countries. Basically, allot of guys play games because they try to use leverage that they pretend to have. The lady loses out in the short run, but the guy loses out in the long run because he's nothing but a loser anyway. In most cases, the men are just sex tourists that have to fly thousands of miles for meeting beautiful women because they wont have a chance in their own country with women of the same calibre. However, what usually happens is that the decent foreign women catch on to these types of guys, and they avoid these guys altogether. Usually, the decent women either decide to be with one of their own men, or they pick a gringo who is "the real thing." While the game player is left with women who are less appealing, and eyeballing the upper-scale women from afar. I'm sure you've seen this in Brazil while you were there, and if you've been to Colombia, you've probably seen it there.  

I think when sincere guys go to Colombia looking for wives they need to consider all the things you mentioned. I never advocate going on rescue missons, but only search for someone who is going to love you.

As for the Colombian crisis. I really think the way you've described the problem is a classical example of USA unilateral thinking, which becomes USA unilateral politics. The reality is that the USA is the world's largest consumer of Colombia's "illegal exports." America has a serious drug consumption problem, and our dollars fuel much of the narco trafficking. The Colombians aren't forcing us to use drugs. Also, the only way we are going to succefully eliminate drug consumption is if we realize that we have to be responsible by saying NO. Plan Colombia actually begins and ends with our responsibility.
Yes, you are right. Colombia has to clean house, but gringos need to "lay down the pipe" and and "get rid of the weed." Until we can do that, plenty of our dollars are going to go overseas into the nacros' pockets, and no amount of helicopters or USA marines will be enough to solve the problem.

Basically, if you strip away the moral issue, narco trafficking is nothing but a business. If it was legalized, more people would be involved. So, I think the best way to fight it is to better control what businessmen love most...MONEY. This is the reason why I totally support the removal of cash currency worldwide, and move to an electronic form of currency. With a sophisticated system of checks and balances, and technology, all people who use electronic currency would have to be accountable for everthing they buy and sale. But, some people are affraid of that kind of surveillance.

Just my .02