Passion vs. Caution

[Jersey Mike]

After lurking around these parts on and off for a year or so, I have recently posted a few times.  Personally, I've never had to travel to faraway destinations to meet lovely foreign-born ladies since there are so many woman from both latin countries and eastern Europe here in the NYC area.  I have dated a number of latin women, particularly brazilians, until I met my soon-to-be-ex-wife from the FSU.  (I know, here on the latin board there aren't too many good things said about FSU gals, but my ex wife is a very decent person - but kind of cold.)  Presently, I am dating a young and beautiful brazilian girl who I have met here in NJ, and am enjoying my recently regained freedom.

It seems the foreign-born women that I have met here in the US expect a very firm commitment for marriage from men - and they expect it quickly!  Otherwise, they will quickly move on to greener pastures.  I am not talking about green card sharks - even those gals who have their papers seem to approach relationships this way.  She wants you to pursue her, to romance her, to prove to them that you have to have her (and only her), to sweep her off her feet!  I have heard many women, especially from latin countries, tell me they think we AM are too cold and calculating in the way we approach courtship and marriage.  It seems passion is a highly valued aspect of a relationship to these women.

I have read many good pieces of advice given about taking your time, checking for red flags, multiple trips, etc.  A lot of the advice seems geared towards removing the emotional aspect of these relationships.  My point is that there seems to be a cultural gap between the expectations of the women and the prudent measures that a man should take when pursuing an international relationship.  Any comments?  By the way, this is by no means a criticism of those who take a cautious approach to this.

Best of luck to all!

[Aaron]

... in response to Passion vs. Caution, posted by Jersey Mike on Mar 14, 2003

meeting a woman, dating her for 6 months, then getting married in less than a year is a smart thing to do. It is too risky. I have never been married, but there are some posters on here that have been married twice or maybe even three times. If you listen to their stories, it's usually the same pattern of behavior: 1.) not knowing the person for much time prior to making such a serious commitment; 2.) someone has false expectations or alterior motives; and 3.) step children that complicate matters. I think if some of the people would have taken more time to get to know the person they were involved with, then they wouldn't experience such disappointments. And when this keeps happening over and over to certain people, that's an indication that the person has a fundamental problem that needs to be addressed before he or she even thinks about another relationship.

I have been searching since 1998, and I haven't found the right one yet. Many posters have been searching for less time, and met their partners on their first trip. I didn't want to do that. I wanted to meet more people. See what kind of ladies I could be with before I picked one. The way I see it, and many latin people see it the same way (but not all)...ESTABLISHING FRIENDSHIP AND TRUST FIRST is a very important component for relationships. Also, getting to know the person and their family is very important. For example, a good friend of mine from Costa Rica has been dating his girlfriend for 6 years now. They want to marry, but they aren't going to rush it. Another Colombian friend dated her husband for 5 years first, and after the marriage, she moved to the USA to work on her Ph.D. for 4 years while her husband stayed in Colombia. She has finished, and now back in Colombia with him, and they are happy. Another Colombian woman I know dated her boyfriend for 5 years, she came to the USA to work on a master's degree in engineering while her boyfriend stayed in Colombia. She went back, they got married, but now they are both coming to the USA to work on Ph.D.s.

I think allot of gringos make the mistake (or are tricked) in believing that "latinas come from a culture that is sooooooooo passionate, that it is expected for people to start relationships quicker, and men must show interest in the lady quickly before she moves on to someone who will".
That kind of thinking is a bunch of hogwash. And it is dangerous to think that way because what usually happens is that the guy meets a game player who tries to push the relationship by making him think that he has competition with other men who are "just as or more interested;" and if he doesn't make a move, he'll lose out. From my personal experience, I met about 4 ladies that tried that game with me, but when they figured out that I wasn't going to fall for it, I was already thinking about another candidate. And they were left with the other guy (whether or not he was for real or not).

Bottom line...when a person (man or woman) is sincerely interested in someone, they are willing to put in the time to show that they really care, and they wont push. If it gets to be too long, then they'll just move on. But, what is considered too long depends on the person waiting. It can't be generalized for eveyone. I think when people first start out, they should talk about their expectations and time lines from the beginning.

Aaron

[Ralph]

... in response to Don't fool yourself into believing that...., posted by Aaron on Mar 15, 2003

I think that if one has to "decide" between a few "prospects", one has not found the "one". If a lady tries playing the "competition card", I'd move on in a heartbeat as you did.
To me, that is sure sign of a woman that has decided to marry a gringo, not me, but virtually any gringo.

By the same token, many guys narrow their search down to a "list" and then pick one. If you need to pick one, she isn't the one either. When you meet a woman that makes you forget that all the others exist, you are on the right track.

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Don't fool yourself into believing t..., posted by Ralph on Mar 16, 2003

Good Points !!!

[jumgimbo]

... in response to Don't fool yourself into believing that...., posted by Aaron on Mar 15, 2003

I've been married twice to AWs and each time I knew them for years before marrying.  The first time, 4 years, the second time nearly 2 years, so even getting to know someone well is no guarantee of success.  I am, of course, divorced from both.  I lived with both women before marriage, so I knew them as well as you can expect.  

I think throwing a bit of caution to the wind might be a better way to approach this search in LA, particularly since each party in this search is looking for much the same thing:  a relationship with a foreigner who will have both exotic elements about them and provide a unique personal experience by having traits one has a hard time locating in the U.S.  or in their home country.  I don't know of many people who can make a relationship endure long-term, especially for years, if they are living in separate countries.  It's also very difficult to get a woman into the U.S. and keep her around for years and years if you're NOT married.  It's trebly difficult, and perhaps financially disastrous, for a man to move to someplace like Colombia in order to get to know his lady better before marriage.  

At least this process allows a man to find a more desirable woman than he can at home, regardless of how the relationship happens.  Some work out, some don't, that's just human nature.  I don't think being so cautious about developing a relationship that you do absolutely nothing, never take risks, never give one of these agency tours a chance, insist on knowing someone five or six years before you know she's the one, are good things.  If you have the wherewithal to move to SA for several years, great, but most of us do not.  And, if I thought I could locate a fine Colombian woman here who might be in school, allowing me many years to know her right here at home, I wouldn't have to travel to Colombia.  But, if she were here already she'd become Americanized and be the object of intense attention from all the startled guys who see an angel in their midst.  Without going to Colombia, we'd never meet these women and we have to take the risky approach to a relationship with them, yes, but the rewards are potentially much greater than the penalties of inaction.

This is just one opinion, not necessarily the right one.  Peace to all.

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Don't fool yourself into believing t..., posted by jumgimbo on Mar 15, 2003

a year of courtship, then marriage after that wouldn't be a bad idea. Of course, the man would be expected to make multiple visits (every 3 or 4 months). Also, when the relationship starts, I think the man should be willing to provide her some financial assistance if she needs it.

Yes, you are right, taking more time to know a person is not a guarantee for a successful relationship, but you definitely can decrease the likelihood of marrying someone who is incompatible or has the wrong intentions by dating them for a period of time.

Remember, in the beginning, everybody puts their good foot foward to make a good impression. However, I think it's best to see more of the person's personality and behavior. See how they behave over time to determine how consistent they are with their behavior, personality, and viewpoints.

Aaron

[jumgimbo]

... in response to All I'm saying is..., posted by Aaron on Mar 16, 2003

I don't want to give you the wrong impression, because I do agree it's a better idea to get to know someone for a while before jumping into something like marriage.  I just disagreed that waiting 5 or 6 years was a viable approach; a year is certainly realistic under the circumstances we face with women in SA.  Waiting, emailing, writing, talking, extended visits, vacations together, all these things taken together can show you whether or not you are compatible enough to survive the long haul.  Doing so can also help you distance your good judgment from your lovestruck hormones.  

I also believe meeting a women at a tour or through an agency, however you do it, can open doors we ordinarily would never have a chance to walk through.  Sure, fall in love or lust with a gal at a party in Cali, but get home after the initial buzz and see what her intentions and true personality are.  Give yourself a chance to discover your own intentions and make sure you have even a hope of making the relationship work.  I mean, falling in love and proposing to someone you've just met is a romantic picture, but it's a risky proposition indeed if you carry through and marry a woman you hardly know.  If you're a high roller and Vegas is your kinda town, go for it.  

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: All I'm saying is..., posted by jumgimbo on Mar 16, 2003

I totally agree. I couldn't wait 5 years myself. I could go up to 2.5; but that's my limit.

Aaron

[Intrepid]

... in response to Passion vs. Caution, posted by Jersey Mike on Mar 14, 2003

From what I have learned by reading through the archives, it seems this "endeavor" requires prudence by the man.  We should be sensitive to LA women's expectations, and not play with them.  One can argue either way, which party has the most to lose in a marriage.  But as best I can tell, there is no "magic formula" to tell when a woman is truely in love with you, or in love with "marrying a gringo."

Some may argue "the higher the risk, the higher the reward."  But can this theory really be applied to a marriage?  It seems that there are a fair amount of "successful" as well as "unsuccessful" RISKY marriages.  That also seems to be the case where "prudence" was exercised.

It appears that some men approach this concept with the U.S. penchant for "instant gratification."  Usually, we men go to the store, get what we came for and leave.  It appears that some men have used this approach to finding a wife.  Perhaps that "works" for some.

Personally, I choose the path of prudence.  Not that this approach will guarantee success, but I would like to feel that I exercised due dilligence, pass or fail.  Perhaps a good approach might be to make oneself approachable, available, and desireable; and let love find you.

Of course, I am still on the "fence" so I may be all wet.  But it strikes me that before we can talk about expectations and prudence, we must first define "success."  Peace!

[wizard]

... in response to Passion vs. Caution, posted by Jersey Mike on Mar 14, 2003

JM:

It's all about sealing then deal... The lady has showed you the goods and is "asking for the order", to borrow a term from the sales game... Any good salesman will tell you, that once you display the merchandise and quote the terms of the deal, you ask for the order... You don't wait for the customer to make a decision... You take the offense and say do we have a deal or not??? If not, NEXT!!!! That may sound a little cold, but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it...

I live in an area with a LARGE latin sector and have dated many latinas here at home, but at one point decided I wasn't going to find who I was really looking for at home... That's when I started going to LA...  Maybe it's the "Americanization" thing, but something about life in the USA jades women to a certain degree with respect to their attitudes toward men... Just my observation...

Women I have met in the last few years here in the states tend to "size men up" very quickly... For that matter, I've gotten pretty good at this skill also... WIHF is that you are immediately sized up as to income, standard of living, social status and so on... If you aren't "deemed" to be an acceptable match, things don't last long... Like, it was a pleasure to meet you, but... Which is not a bad thing... Why waste anyones time??? Trust me, it works both ways... Then if you both "make the grade", they want instant committment... From one extreme to the other... Yikes!!!

There have been volumes written related the differences in the male / female psyche... Women are just wired differently than men... Men are more analytical and pragmatic than women... Women are far more emotional than men, seeking love and security... Women will make important decisions based on the way they feel, while men want to analyze all factors before making importants decisions... Sometimes by being analytical we come off as cold, especially if we don't react to a woman with a certain emotional response she is expecting... Sympatico...

Now to the meat of it, Sincerity vs Games... IMHO, women are experts in manipulating the male psyche... They can turn on the charm and snow the most seasoned veteran, if the guy is interested... After all, we are just men... The trick is to find a way to judge whether the interest / affection a woman shows are genuine, or is it an  act... Again, IMHO, the only way to accomplish this is time together... Someone who is playing a game can't keep up a facade for long... I would be highly suspect of someone who is pressuring me into making a decision as important as marriage...

But then sometimes you just gotta say what the hell and go for it!!! Es la broma...

my 2 cents

Good luck

[Jersey Mike]

... in response to How about Sincerity vs. Games, posted by wizard on Mar 14, 2003

I agree with your assessment of some latinas who live here and become jaded and "americanized" (materialistic and manipulative games players, as bad as any AWs you will meet or worse)- and I wonder about bringing a girl here who would change in the wrong ways.  At least if you meet a woman here, you have a somewhat better idea about what her true personality will be like when she encounters all of the temptations of life here.  The nice girls don't really change too much.

One of the big things that I have observed is that some of the women who arrive here are overwhelmed by all of the attention they receive from men here.  In their native countries, they are the ones who have to compete for the most desirable men.  Here they can be choosey, and many latinas begin to place a greater value on money and looks than they would in their home countries.  Pretty soon, they start looking for the next bigger and better deal to come along.  It's possible that some of the marriage failures may be attributed to this change, but I suspect these are the girls who are more materialistic to begin with.

Best of luck!

[Hiker]

... in response to Passion vs. Caution, posted by Jersey Mike on Mar 14, 2003

Right on the money.  Listening to some guys interview the girls in Colombia was stupid.  I saw one girl laugh in the guys face and then get up and walk out.  You are looking for a relationship, not an employee.