Pre-nuptial Agreements?

[jumgimbo]

Anybody had any success on dealing with pre-nuptial agreements?  I'm a family law attorney but, of course, have never been married to a foreign national and want to make sure I protect my interests in case of the possibility of divorce.  I've heard tales of obtaining agreements in Colombia or Mexico, though I'm very concerned about their enforceability in California (or the U.S., in general).  

I've considered drafting a reasonable agreement here, having it translated officially into Spanish, and providing both copies to the woman I eventually meet and wish to marry.  I'd like to know if any of you have dealt with this already and if you might have some advice.  I will not marry without this in place; given my profession, I'm sure you understand.

Going to BAQ for the first time in July, probably, so no hurry.

[Cali vet]

... in response to Pre-nuptial Agreements?, posted by jumgimbo on Feb 4, 2003

Pre-nups are not an uncommon practise in Colombia. The couple writes up the document and takes it to a notary who stamps and signs it and voila it's legal. No lawyers involved. However the notery's fee is a (hefty) percentage of the amount to be protected. There is a clause in the civil marriage code that states the pre-nup can't include anything that goes against "good customs".

[Patrick]

... in response to Pre-nuptial Agreements?, posted by jumgimbo on Feb 4, 2003

I've been harping on every guy who posts about these to contact a family law attorney in their area rather than take any advice offered here, and now a family law attorney himself is asking questions!

I'd be very interested in hearing what you want the pre-nup to do for you.  I consulted with three family law attornies before I married and came to the conclusion (at least in my personal case) that a pre-nuptial agreement in California didn't provide any protection I wanted that wasn't already built into family law.  If you have your own practice (i.e. business) I can understand why you'd want a pre-nup.  I also understand that they're commonly used to protect heirs you want to leave something to in the event of your death during marriage.  I could understand someone wanting to protect passive accumulation from becoming half her's as well, but that didn't worry me much since I assumed that a failed marriage would happen sooner rather than later and there would not be much appreciation in a short time span.  The only other option I was told about- income protection, didn't seem fair to me.  I think half of what I earn in a marriage should be my wife's.

Its alimony that bothers me.  I know one guy who's paying around $2,000 per month to his ex after she was caught boinking the foreign exchange student living with them and he divorced her.  This guy put his wife through law school and she passed the bar, but was too busy playing tenis and golf to ever work afterwards.  Now she lives mostly off of what he gives her (permanently since it was a marriage that lasted more than 10 years).  Too bad a pre-nup can't protect men from alimony.

So, if a man has to continue supporting his former stay at home wife after divorce, why doesn't she have to continue cooking and cleaning for him?

[jumgimbo]

... in response to Re: Pre-nuptial Agreements?, posted by Patrick on Feb 5, 2003

I'm just seeking tidbits from those who have already trod the path, since I haven't.  As a California family law attorney, I can tell you that a pre-nup CAN protect you from paying spousal support, from acquiring community interest in anything together, and from a whole host of other potential ills.

Now the one thing you may want to do, if you're a hopeful optimist, is to provide for a graduated increase share or potential settlement to your wife, depending on the length of the marriage.  If she truly proves to be the golden child who enlightens you and brightens your life, then she should share in the benefits of the partnership if she remains in it long enough.  That said, if she is just coming here to bide her time and get the green card, wait out the requisite period, or go to school on your dime and wait for you to pay her, she should get not one thin dime.

The idea is to make sure both parties are represented by counsel in the jurisdiction, such as California.  After the Barry Bonds case, the legislature amended the statutes to make sure a pre-nup is only valid when both partners have lawyers who can advise them.  So, yes, you can protect your heirs and other family members, you can protect your business and other assets, you can protect your future income during and after marriage, so long as the pre-nup is properly and carefully worded and both parties have legal counsel in negotiating the document.

Here's the problem with foreign brides:  if you present it to her in Colombia, for example, it must be translated verbatim into Spanish by a skilled translator.  It must be reviewed by a California attorney (in my example), probably one who can speak fluent Spanish.  He or she must approve the document upon consultation with his client, who may or may not be in the U.S.  She must probably also get advice from a Colombian attorney in Colombia, and might even need a document acceptable in that country for this all to work.  Those of you who have tried this may have better answers than me.

If you try it via the K1 route, it changes things slightly, as there's already a built in risk that she will go home in 90 days.  But I understand a lot of the women don't want to do the K1, so correct me if I'm wrong.  It would obviously be easier to have her in California to do this, as it would clear up the murky legal waters.

A surgeon shouldn't operate on himself and an attorney should not give himself advice in a case like this.  Hence, best to seek another attorney's advice and input, as I will when the time comes.  I suppose the one thing you could do, if you have the stomach for it, is to try getting married in Colombia, bring her back and demand that she sign an ante-nuptial agreement within the first few months.  If she refuses, divorce her and she's probably going to have to return home.  But if she does refuse, you'll know she had something in mind other than love and a lifetime relationship.

This may sound like tough love, folks, but trust me on this one:  you don't want to get stuck with a wife who acquires a 50% interest in your marital assets and is entitled to ream you for spousal support for years after.  Child support is an entirely different matter, of course, but that has the potential to create a double whammy.  

Just my three cents.

Peace.

[Michael B]

... in response to Re: Re: Pre-nuptial Agreements?, posted by jumgimbo on Feb 5, 2003

You're planning to 1) Marry her 2) Bring her to the USA and then, after items 1 and 2 are both complete say "SUPRIZE! Sign this or I will divorce you and you'll have to go back." That's your plan? Have you ever seen a Latina when she's  r e a l l y  mad?

If you want a pre-nupt, that's your business, but that's something you explain and get her to agree to before the fact (and don't be disappointed if she tells you "sail on, sailor"). To spring it on her via threats and coercion after she's already here and married, well, let's just say a fellow who does that deserves what is going to happen to him. No charge for the advice, ESQ.

[A1A]

... in response to Let me see if I understand this?, posted by Michael B on Feb 5, 2003

I remember Lorena Bobbit, and I saw something on the news a couple weeks ago about the latina that ran over her husband 4 times for cheating on her, hmmmmmm, this could be interesting.
A1A

[jumgimbo]

... in response to Let me see if I understand this?, posted by Michael B on Feb 5, 2003

No, I said that's one possible way to deal with it, as an ANTE-NUPTIAL agreement.  I figure she may or may not sign it, but if she won't her motives may be more than just from the heart.  If you're really not attached, cut your losses and not hang onto something that may bite you back later.  I'm not heartless, my friend, just reasonably cautious.

[Michael B]

... in response to Re: Let me see if I understand this?, posted by jumgimbo on Feb 5, 2003

I didn't say you were heartless, I said it isn't a very smart plan. I'll let you think on it a while and hope that you realize WHY it isn't a smart plan. But if you need some help, I can write at least a full screen essay as to why it isn't smart.

[jumgimbo]

... in response to Re: Re: Let me see if I understand this?, posted by Michael B on Feb 5, 2003

I never said it was a smart plan, I said it was a possible option and fraught with risk.  You should be more careful what you're criticizing. I'm just throwing out ideas for discussion, not suggesting that I'm going to something stupid.  

Lighten up, buddy.

[DallasSteve2]

... in response to Pre-nuptial Agreements?, posted by jumgimbo on Feb 4, 2003

Success?  Depends on how you define "Success".  I do have experience with a pre-nup and a foreign bride.  I brought a Colombiana here 3 years ago on a K1 visa.  We got a pre-nup and later married and 2 years later divorced.  

She didn't try to challenge the pre-nup, but why would she.  I gave her more than 50% of what would've been the increase in the community estate while we were married.  Gave her more like 75%.  Luv.  Oh well.  Live and learn.

I do think that pre-nups will hold up here in Texas.  I have read the family law code regarding them and they look solid.

I hired one attorney for me and one for her.  It's more fun that setting your money on fire, but not much.  I wouldn't do one overseas.  I want her here on US soil so that it doesn't look like coercion.  And I'd rather have an attorney who knows Texas law.

Her attorney spoke Spanish and he was old enough to be my father, both qualities I would look for again.  And I will be doing this again in about a month, except this time it will be a post-nup as we have already married.  

I decided to wait until after we married this time for several reasons, not the least of which is that last time I was counseled to pay for another round of legal services after we married to "confirm" the pre-nup.  I don't know why that is necessary.  Probably just to increase the attorneys' revenues.

Steve

[farmboy]

... in response to Re: Pre-nuptial Agreements?, posted by DallasSteve2 on Feb 4, 2003

DS

Please, I'd like to hear your thoughts on why you think your first marriage did'nt work.  What you did different in this new one and what you learned.

I am considering the same here, (marrying a Columbian).

cheers

farmboy

[DallasSteve2]

... in response to Why? and lessons learned, posted by farmboy on Feb 6, 2003

[This message has been edited by DallasSteve2]

FB

I think my marriage failed because I chose poorly.  I ignored numerous warning signs before and after she got here, and before and after we married.  In the end, I believe she never loved me and just married me to get a visa and because she thought I would treat her well, which I did.  

I ignored the warning signs because:

 1 - I was new at this and didn't realize I could easily find many other attractive women in Colombia who really want to be with me.

 2 - She is still the most charming, attractive woman I have ever met and I couldn't resist her.  I've seen many other men dumbstruck by her, so I know I'm not alone in that reaction.

This time I married a woman who appears to really want to be with me.  Only time will tell.  Also she's not quite as young as the last one.  Anyway, my feelings now are, if she leaves I can always go get another one.  You only live once.

FYI, most Colombianas don't like to live on a farm.

Steve

PS:  Both my ex and my wife resemble Colombian actress Paola Rey.  If you don't know who Paola Rey is:

http://www.fulllatin.com/paola_rey_galleries.htm