Men in Gray.

[Celt]

... in response to Re: And To Conclude..., posted by colman on Jan 24, 2003

Pardon my prying into your feud, but Colman brings up
-- alright, indirectly --some points that interest me about
modern immigration. I have spoken to countless immigrants,
and what distinguishes them from earlier generations, IMHO,
is their lack of gratitude for this country.
[Note to Colman, this is a theme, not an accusation.] I do not pro-
fess to say that this country deserves their scorn or not,
but I would argue that it certainly does not inspire it.

Case in point: last month in a S. California newspaper,
there was a newspaper article about immigrants who earn
citizenship through military service. It quoted a young
Mexican woman, whom I can only paraphrase: "The U.S. has
allowed me to accomplish everthing I feel proud of having
accomplished, but my pride is with Mexico."

I wonder how we should interpret comments like that. I
interpret it thus: that the U.S. has instrumental value
for immigrants like her: laws, a Bill of Rights,
a strong economy, and an open system in which one,
if so motivated, can achieve great things.
These are all taken for granted.
But, none of these advantages, or opportunities taken
and built upon, sink deep into the well of gratitude of
many immigrants.

I think the modern theory of all-encompassing racism has
much to do with it. I mean why should one have to embrace
a system that is "racist! sexist! classist!", even though
the whole history of man has been r/s/c, and ours is one
its lightest forms. [I recall that none of the modern
African slaughters has been inter-racial. That must have
been a source of real last-breath comfort to the be-headed.]

U.S. political rights alone were 1000 years in the making,
and are incredibly fragile--remember the Roman Republic?--
but they do not inspire awe, or a feeling that they should
be cherished and nurtured along. I cannot criticize
immigrants for disregarding the institutional
majesty of our system. Can you recall a coherent
appreciation from many people in your University
or job-site experiences?

But, I worry about a time when this utilitarianism from
immigrants becomes generalized. I remember looking at the
Vietnam memorial in D.C. and seeing alot of hispanic surnames.
I wondered then, and now, how many immigrants
now would take up arms to defend our r/s/c country.

[wizard]

... in response to Yeah it sucks but the U.S. is.............., posted by colman on Jan 21, 2003

In my part of the country it's called "profiling"... They don't hide it, do lie about it and they get results... Now, I don't want to start a flame battle, but the legal eagles along the border profile cars/drivers ALL the time looking for drug mules, ferrying the stuff across the border and to major markets around the country... Shoot, they even grab an ex-Pro football player every now and then... lol... Now, I can't say that I condone it, but they do get results... Yes, there is a profile of the typical drug runner... Certain type of vehicle, certain race and gender...

But think about this... What about when the gringo norte americano gets profiled in LA... That's what the men in the grey suits did... They thought they had easy pickings when Calipro happened along... He was sharp enough to figure it out though...

What's the difference??? Well, when it happens in the US, it's usually to prevent a crime... When it happens in LA, it's usually to perpetrate a crime...

Yeah, you're running into racial stereotyping in your community... It's not pretty, but it is the American way... Sad as that may be... Even worse since 911...

wizard

[colman]

... in response to Hey, it's role reversal..., posted by wizard on Jan 21, 2003

I dont remember if it was Dateline or 20/20 but they showed a series where their were black and white "dummies" going to department stores...both the black and white guys were dress casually and both looked like could not hurt a fly--well the program's cameras caught the department stores cameras "eyeing" and paying close attention to the black guy every nook and cranny he went--well guess who went out the back door with 200 dollars worth of clothes?

[Celt]

... in response to great, great points BUT............., posted by colman on Jan 22, 2003

There was also a recent report where dummy resumes were sent
to corporations with "white-sounding" names--Mark,Tom,Bill--
and more "black-sounding" ones: Latisha, Leroy, etc.
There was a much greater frequency of reponse to the
white-sounding names. Of course, all resume contents were held
equal. So, of course there is lurking "racism", or inter-
cultural wariness.

It seems that when whites project it's racism; otherwise,
it is unfortunate cultural misunderstanding.

That's not much solace to the Korean grocery owner whose
store is always torched.

[colman]

... in response to Re: great, great points BUT............., posted by Celt on Jan 22, 2003

nt

[Pete E]

... in response to Yeah it sucks but the U.S. is.............., posted by colman on Jan 21, 2003

I'm sure I would be quite pi--ed off if someone stopped me because of my skin color.I know that happens and to me can only be justified if skin color is part of a description of a suspect they are looking for who was reported commiting a crime and they are in the area where the suspect could be expected to be found.I know there is a different perception of the police by different ethnic groups.Whats really troubling is the number of people convicted who are now being freed by DNA evidence.Seems like there is a urge not just to stop and search and arrest,but convict without the proper evidence.
HOWEVER --- this is not the same as a police force looking to make money in their jobs by shaking down citizens and tourists.I think that is pretty unheard of in the US.In latin countries I think MOST police officers expect to get extra income from thier power and authority.Its a huge problem thats got to change,as I said,if they ever hope to join the developed world.People should not be afraid to call the police because it will just compound their problems.Bribery at all levels is also a huge issue in latin countries.I know it happens here,but not anywhere to the same extent.
And profilling looking for Muslim terrorists is justified I think.100 % of the terrorists are midddle eastern.It doesn't make any since to bother other people at all in this search.I know its not fair to innocent middle eastern peiople but too bad,its needed.To frisk grandma here to be politically correct is just plain stupid.
Another interesting aside.Cab drivers in New York,even Black cab drivers,sometimes will not pick up black passengers for fear of being mugged.Its not fair,but a real fear for them based on experience.
I was in Puerto Villarta a number of years ago.An english language newspaper reported Liz Taylors house had been burglerized.She was not there,some other guests.The paper reported it took the police 2 hours to show up.They surmised it took them a long time because they had to go back to the police station and change back in their uniforms to investigate the crime they commited.
I am a libertarian at heart and get pi--ed off watching "cops" shows.(real situations.)It seems to me they should just leave people alone in some cases where they don't.One show was a prostitution sting.Undercover cops were picking up street walker type girls and inticing them to offer services and then arresting them.One girl said "why are you doing this?" I concurred.I got bounced off a jury once.Its was a prostitution case.I told the judge I thought it was silly for us to be there.Your out of here!I have a resentment of police power and I have never been bothered,so I can immagine how people might feel who have.I remember getting stopped in a radar trap one time.The cop just pointed at me,YOU- HERE!.It pi--ed me off being ordered like that.I was tempted to give him the finger and hit the gas but thought better off it.It wouldn't have gone over well in my job at the city traffic department.

Pete

[colman]

... in response to Re: Yeah it sucks but the U.S. is.........., posted by Pete E on Jan 21, 2003

posting a response to my thread. You have good points and it may have not been the same when you compare U.S. and Latin American police and their practices....but just for the record Chile and Costa Rica did receive a better grade curbing police corruption compared to the U.S. and Uruguay almost making the grade. The point is ---it is possible for EVERYONE to improve. This Highland Park thing hits home (a close friend) and it does hurt--I mean I can almost say at heart I am against the death penalty BUT I understand a mother lobbying for capital punishment when her daughter has been brutally raped and killed by a man.--I guess it depends what role one is playing in this crazy world "movie" we live in---God Bless--Colman

[mudd]

... in response to Yeah it sucks but the U.S. is.............., posted by colman on Jan 21, 2003

Well, in my city, San Diego, not to sound like a racist, but the people with dark skin seem to be the ones driving without insurance, a license or car registration. We also have our share of white trash driving around, and yes, they get pulled over also. So it’s my opinion that the ones complaining are the ones usually breaking the law.

[colman]

... in response to Re: Yeah it sucks but the U.S. is.........., posted by mudd on Jan 21, 2003

n/t

[Cali vet]

... in response to Yeah it sucks but the U.S. is.............., posted by colman on Jan 21, 2003

"well at least in here, they dont starve themselves to death like in their native Africa"

Coleman I'd be curious to know where you came accross the above quotation.

Cai-vet

[colman]

... in response to Re: Yeah it sucks but the U.S. is.........., posted by Cali vet on Jan 21, 2003

Heard at break at work about 3 or 4 yrs. ago--Alex Haley's great book--Roots--made into a T.V. series about 25 yrs. ago was being discussed in one of these day time shows--well a couple of people made that exact comment---this savage comment has stuck in my mind ever since--I mean I know it may have been blown out of proportion but nonetheless somehow I have retained it...--Colman

[colman]

... in response to Yeah it sucks but the U.S. is.............., posted by colman on Jan 21, 2003

Highland Park--a wealthy suburb north of Chicago (where Michael Jordan has made his residence) about a year ago, two caucasion officers complained and went public for the "unofficial" manual of the Highland Park police department of specifically targeting and stopping Latino and Hispanic drivers (many of whom work in landscape contruction, delivery men) even though thier was no "just" cause for pulling these people over (busted headlight, no license plate, sticker)--well guess what--look over the next thread---Colman

[colman]

... in response to and here is proof in case you think I am..., posted by colman on Jan 21, 2003


PRESS RELEASE

Congressman John Conyers, Jr.

Fourteenth District, Michigan

Ranking Member, Committee on the Judiciary

Dean, Congressional Black Caucus

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FOR RELEASE: CONTACT:

March 23, 2000 Keenan Keller

202-225-6906

CONYERS' CALLS FOR DOJ INTERVENTION

ON ILLINOIS RACIAL PROFILING ALLEGATIONS

Today Representative John Conyers, Jr., the Ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, asked the Department of Justice to investigate allegations of racial profiling and retaliation by the Highland Park, Illinois, Police Department. Conyers stated that, "A group of police officers from Highland Park, Illinois, had the courage to confirm a fact that minority drivers across the nation have known for years: police departments routinely employ discriminatory racial profiling tactics designed to ambush innocent minority drivers. In sworn affidavits, the officers detailed shocking incidents of race related traffic stops and police policies that clearly warrant federal investigation. The allegations of the Highland Park officers are unique in the fact that white law abiding officers have advanced the profiling claim and broken the wall of silence that has hindered other investigations."

Conyers observed that, "The courage shown by these officers in coming forward will send a tremor through the law enforcement community. In the face of tremendous anecdotal and quantitative evidence to the contrary, some national police groups have consistently denied the existence of racial profiling. With substantial and credible evidence, these officers have put a spotlight on the use of 10-codes and the falsification of records that disguise these discriminatory practices. Because these officers have broken the wall of silence, never again can there be a denial of the stories of the minority community concerning their treatment at the hands of the police."

Conyers noted that, "The candor of these officers has come at the price of their careers and personal safety. During our meeting, they disclosed credible evidence a pattern of conduct by their supervisors that raises serious question as to their safety and the integrity of documentary evidence held by the department that would substantiate their claims. Several officers have been issued death threats by members of their own department. Others have been directly informed by their supervisors that their chances for promotion are nonexistent."

In a letter to Deputy United States Attorney General Eric Holder, Conyers urged the Department of Justice to extend the fullest protection to the whistleblowing officers during the pendency of any federal investigation of the Highland Park Police Department. He further asked the Department to vigorously utilize the legal tools afforded it under 42 U.S.C. 14141, which gives the Department the authority to obtain civil injunctive relief where there exists a "pattern and practice" of misconduct, to investigate the conduct of the Highland Park Police Department.

Conyers concluded that, "Events in New York, Los Angeles and other cities nationwide evidence a crisis of confidence in our police departments. By establishing a record of cooperation with officers willing to breach the wall of silence, the Justice Department can create a more open climate for pattern and practice enforcement where police officers - the vast majority of whom follow the rules and treat all citizens with respect - do not feel threatened by the small number of their rank who insist on operating outside the bounds of the Constitution. The situation in Highland Park gives the Department the opportunity to open a new chapter in the prosecution of police misconduct cases: one where the police officers themselves step forward to rid their departments of the bad actors."

###106-98###

[colman]

... in response to here is the article that "proves&qu..., posted by colman on Jan 21, 2003

THOUGHT SO

[DallasSteve2]

... in response to THOUGHT SO, posted by colman on Jan 21, 2003

OK, we're convinced.  Your wonderful Colombia is 100 times better than the US.  When does your one-way flight leave?

Steve