the truth about the source

[Tai]

... in response to Re: Re: Attitude and idioma, posted by Cali vet on Feb 18, 2002

What I find more interesting along that line, is that so many 2nd generation Latinos speak only marginal Spanish...more like Spanglish...and some speak none.

When I was in college, I worked at Costco(Walmart type store) where there were mostly 2nd generation Mexicans. The funny thing was that with all the Spanish "phrases" flowing around the place on a regular basis...whenever a customer that didn't speak any English needed help, they sent them to me or one of the Latinos born in Mexico or Honduras.

The first couple of times that they sent the "Spanish only" customers to me I thought they were just trying to give me a hard time, but soon realized that they weren't kidding when I overheard them say "Lo siento, no entiendo mucho Español. Habla con ese moreno"

Tai

Even more interesting was when the people born in Mexico asked me "why" I took the time to learn Spanish, as if it was a "strange" thing to do.

[Cali vet]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Attitude and idioma, posted by Tai on Feb 18, 2002

Awhile back I drove into the the town of Montecillo, New Mexico northwest of Truth or Consequences. It lies at one end of the beautifull Canada (canyon) Alamosa the other end of which was occupied by the Chihenne Apache a little more than a hundred years ago. The town was founded my Mexicans long before Northern Mexico was given up to the US and many of the residents still speak only Spanish. I'd wager they had family on "American soil" long before many of the contributers to this forum and not an immigrant among them!

Lest we forget.

[yc]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Attitude and idioma, posted by Tai on Feb 18, 2002

Tai, you have been to LA... right?  If not, just disregard this question.  If the roles were reversed and it was us americans that was immigrating to some country in LA, would the locals there expect us to learn their language(spanish)?

Thanks,

yc

[Tai]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Attitude and idioma, posted by yc on Feb 18, 2002

YC,

Yes I have been to LA a few times and the people would most definitely expect it. Actually, the relatives expect the gringos that are marrying into their families to learn their language.

Of course many gringos never do because of the silly "I live in America so I don't need to speak Spanish" argument, but the families have little respect for this because it is saying to them that the gringo does not believe their language and/or culture is important enough to bother with.

Example:
An acquaintance of mine has been married to a woman from Barranquilla for going on three years, and he still only knows about three or four very basic phrases in Spanish.

Personally, I find that to be disrespectful to his wife and family...but hey, what do I know. -The first time I was around his Colombian family, we were in the room with his brothers and sisters in law and they were talking non-stop crap about him -right in front of his face. Once his wife came into the room and told them that I could understand what they were saying, it was DEAD SILENCE for the next twenty minutes while they sweated it out, wondering if I was going to tell on them.

Supposedly it wasn't like that in the beginning, but as time went by and he continued to go down for visits, and it became clear to them that he had no interest in learning Spanish, his "shine" quickly tarnished with them.

Tai

[Jeff S]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Attitude and idioma, posted by Tai on Feb 18, 2002

I met a family in Seattle with an American man and a Japanese woman and stepdaughter. The man absolutely forbade his wife and stepdaughter to speak Japanese in their home. He was worried that they were talking about him and woudn't understand. Talk about disrespectful.

-- Jeff S.

[Viajero]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Attitude and idioma, posted by Tai on Feb 18, 2002

Wow, what a thread!

Let's consider a few things here. First, even with
Chinese and Japanese immigration, Latin American
countries have a more or less homogeneous
population, as opposed to a society made up entirely of
immigrants (at one time or another) such as the US.
Therefore, Spanish is predominant, although many LA
countries have more than one (ie: Spanish and
Guarani in Paraguay, Spanish and Lunfardo in
Argentina, etc). In a homogeneous society it's more
expected and necessary to learn the predominant
language.

I have lived in several countries and visited more than
30, half of them in LA. In LA you need Spanish
because, simply put, it's the money language. In
Europe the money languages are English and
German, as well as the language of the country you are
in. Throughout Europe English is a required language
in schools for this very reason, not for cultural reasons.
In the US, English, and now Spanish, are the money
languages. I have lost count of the times I have made
money where others failed simply because I speak
Spanish. So if someone doesn't learn English he or
she really isn't that bad off unless they live in an area
where there is no real Hispanic subculture.

But the big payoff is with the family. They think I am all
that because I speak Spanish, and I am perceived as
being more friendly and outgoing, smarter and
generally a better catch than that other gringo who
married my novia's aunt. He doesn't speak Spanish, no
one knows him well as a result and he seems very
foreign to them.

Bottom line, the US is no longer an English-speaking  
country. This is hard to accept, but we now live in a
bilingual society, possibly a truly multilingual society by
the time my great grandchildren are adults. In other
words, we're becoming like Europe, whether we like it
or not.

[Jeff S]

... in response to "Our" Language, posted by Viajero on Feb 19, 2002

the simple facts are, while an LA immigrant is able to get by in the US speaking only Spanish and can file his taxes, get a drivers liscense, etc, he or she may be able to find work as a dishwasher or factory worker, perhaps in a bakery in a hispanic neighborhood, they can't even get a job in McDonalds, Home Depot, a bank, or most stores, let alone any kind of a white collar, supervisory, or other salaried position without English. I type this from a city where 70% of the population speaks Spanish at home. Again, I have nothing against native Spanish speakers, just feel that those who refuse to learn English when living in the US are dooming themselves to a life in the subculture - never to be able to join in the good things life has to offer in the US.

-- Jeff S.

[Cali vet]

... in response to "Our" Language, posted by Viajero on Feb 19, 2002

Like I said. And we've all seen the news reports that in two thousand something (not far off) the latino population will be the largest minority goup in the U.S. And with that huge group speaking Spanish first then maybe English what conclusion can be drawn? I live in the so called American heartland, not on one of the coasts but when I go to Wallmart I can charge or debit my purchase in Spanish and when I open up the package I can read the instructions in Spanish. I can also take the Missouri Drivers License Exam in Spanish, get govt. forms etc.etc. I'm not saying everyone should run out and sign up at the community college but it's naive to deny that we're moving gradually to a bilingual society in this country.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to "Our" Language, posted by Viajero on Feb 19, 2002


The problem with that is this:

WE ARE ONE COUNTRY!

Yes, in land mass we are like several countries, but we are not. And we dare not accept this.

There is a REASON why the Euro is having a hard time catching on.

If we allow this country to split along its ethnic lines, we will find America becomes balkanized... and we will suffer as a country. We need to think, act, and be ONE country.

If you live in a country... you should learn its language. Period.

If I moved to Germany for a year, I would learn German. If I MOVED there of my own volition, I would NOT expect that country to supply everything in my "home" language...

[yc]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Attitude and idioma, posted by Tai on Feb 18, 2002

Thanks Tai,

That never really occurred to me.  But as I rethink it now, you are absolutely correct.  It is disrepectful.  Eventhough I am going to learn Spanish.  My reasons were simply because I desire to, I wanted to make communicating in LA easier for myself(as well as broadening my choices of latinas) and finally to ease the stress of her assimulating into this country.  But I believe you pointed out the most important reason of all to learn Spanish, to show respect for her, her culture and most important her family.  After all, her family is your family now.

I have never witnessed what you just described about your acquantance occuring amoug in-laws, but I have witnessed it where americans have been among locals in other countries and even when the locals was among a group of americans.

BTW, did you ever told your acquaintance about what happened?

[Tai]

... in response to Most important reason for gringos to lea..., posted by yc on Feb 19, 2002

YC,

Well that's were it gets pretty sad...he KNOWS that they talk about him. -He just accepts it. His position is basically that since he can't understand them, what they are saying isn't important.

He said, "Hey if its really important my wife will tell me what's going on." -Yes, this guy is an idiot.

I had to distance myself from him, because his attitude was annoying and offensive to me as well. He had a BAD case of the "Ugly American" syndrome. He is one of those guys that thinks he knows everything already...and what he doesn't  already know isn't worth knowing.

I've recently heard through several sources that his wife is seriously considering leaving him. Gee, I wonder why?

As to whether I told him right then? NO WAY!

We were WAAAAY out in the boonies...about 45 minutes outside of Barranquilla...up in the hills. -We took a cab; the roads deteriorated more and more the closer we got to the house. At one point the driver could only go about 2 miles an hour because of the CRATERS in the road.

Then as we made our way up into the hills, parts of the road were washed or crumbled away down the side of the hill(cliff). The road finally got so bad that we had to get out and hike the last half mile up a SERIOUS hill, which culminated in a stroll through "Barrio Peligroso". -I don't know what the REAL name of the barrio is, but they way the guys hanging out in front of the pool hall(a shack with one table in it) were looking at us...I'm sure the only thing between us and a mugging was that my acquaintaince's brother in law knew them.

Was I going to open my mouth THEN and potentially start a "situation" without having any idea where the heck I was, or how to get back to the city? No chance. There was no phone. We had to tell the taxi driver to just come back for us at a certain time....hours later.

As the saying goes, "My mama didn't raise no fool".

Tai

[yc]

... in response to Re: Most important reason for gringos to..., posted by Tai on Feb 19, 2002

Tai,

Forgive me for inquiring farther, but does not this guy love his wife?  I
know guys that are married to unreasonable wives, but IMHO making the
effort to learn Spanish is not all that unreasonable if it will ease
tension with his in-laws.  I am sure if the roles were reversed he would
expect the same, but then again maybe not.  I think you pointed out
already he has deeper underlying issues.  Language learning can be a
difficult task but not unobtainable.  Does he not realized that when
he married this woman he also married her family?  Sometimes in order to
make a marriage work, a spouse must make certain issue a priority even
when they themself considers it unimportant.  I have learn from past
mistake that this usually applys more to us guys than the females.
We(as men) have a tendency to dismisses things just because we do not
consider them important.  Sounds like your acquaintance maybe aware of
his inadequacies already.

How did such a guy every became involved with a latina?  What did she saw
in him?

[Tai]

... in response to Re: Re: Most important reason for gringo..., posted by yc on Feb 19, 2002

YC,

He started pursuing Latinas after back to back failed relationships with AW. If you listen to him tell it, the problem was with the AW. -Yeah, right.

Many of the very same points that you have listed have been told to him MANY times by NUMEROUS people. All of us could see where it(his relationship) was going. -But this guy is just too big of a jerk for his own good.

He puts his best foot forward in the beginning to impress them, and then once he feels he has them(or marries them), he shows his true colors...and they leave him.

When this wife leaves him, he will just say "she" has the issues, and then move on to another.

Mark my words, he will continue to have failed relationships - because he is arrogant as hell, a walking oxymoron; too "smart" to "learn" from his mistakes.

-Tai

ps - Okay, so maybe he's just a moron.

[Wayne]

... in response to Re: Re: Most important reason for gringo..., posted by yc on Feb 19, 2002

This is a very funny thread in my opinion.  If a guy is even reading this board, he should be learning spanish.  I spoke absolutely 0 spanish 3 months ago.  I stepped of the plane in Bogota with a talking electronic translator, and with a confused look on my face trying to find the connection to Cali...  

Last night my wife and I had a 2 hour non-stop conversation at the dinner table in Spanish.  My Spanish is pretty rough after only 3 months, but we speak spanish all the time.  We can talk about anything now.

It's all about motivation.  What are you willing to do to have the best chance for success in marriage with one of these girls?  And it's really not that tough once you have a Colombian Novia.  You just go for it, and start rambling.  It makes for great laughs when you screw up...  These relationships take so much patience, if a guy isn't willing to learn Spanish, it aint going to fly in my opionion.

Nos vamos
Wayne

[robbysanjuan]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Spanish.....Hellooooo, posted by Wayne on Feb 19, 2002

Nos vemos...........