the truth about the source

[Jeff S]

... in response to Re: Re: Attitude and idioma, posted by Cali vet on Feb 18, 2002


.. that many Americans think that Engish, if spoken slowly and loudly enough, can be understood by anyone in the world.

I used to date a girl who lived on a street named Avenida Gaviota, here in Southern California. I asked her neighbor how long he'd lived there. Then answer came back 13 years. Then I asked him if he knew what Gaviota meant. He shrugged his shoulders and said he didn't have a clue. That was a real eye opener to me.

BTW, I'm pretty conversant in three languages. Japanese at home, Spanish at work and English everywhere else.

-- Jeff S.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Attitude, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 18, 2002

It made big news a few months back.

A Mexican lady was guilty of child neglect, and brought to court. Can't remember all of the details now. But as part of the sentencing, the judge ORDERED her to speak English to her children because by not doing so, she was limiting her children's ability to succeed.

The jude was caught in a firestorm of protest from Mexican groups and eventually had to rescind his order.

If you were interested in assimilating... why would you be offended by that judge's ruling?

Isn't the first way to assimilate into a new culture by learning the language...

[El Diablo]

... in response to Re: the truth about the source, posted by Viajero on Feb 18, 2002

I agree and if you follow the posts you'll find that I'm not the one who suggested that women who come on their own hook are less likely to assimilate.  I think that was MarkInTex who brought that up.

[Viajero]

... in response to Re: Re: the truth about the source, posted by El Diablo on Feb 18, 2002

Right you are. I was answering a multitude of ideas, not
necessarily just yours. Hope I didn't offend.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Re: Re: the truth about the source, posted by El Diablo on Feb 18, 2002


Let me state it again:

Those who have come here, and have chosen to live in a sub-culture, instead of joining the mainstream are less likely to assimilate.

OBVIOUSLY!!!

How can I know this? Because: THEY HAVEN'T ASSIMILATED!

You think they're going to change their mind just because they meet you???

[El Diablo]

... in response to Not what I said, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 18, 2002

OK Mark I understand what you are saying.  On the other-hand does a person have to move out of their own ethnic community to be assimilated?

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Not what I said, posted by El Diablo on Feb 18, 2002


And if they don't... our country is the worse for it.

If we all stay in our little communities, surrounded by our comfort zones, how is this country supposed to integrate all of the ideas from all of the cultures.

I tire of special interests.

I wish we all had a common interest... and just different voices to express it.

[El Diablo]

... in response to Yes, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 18, 2002

I disagree totally. I think you are taking this idea of assimilation way too far and don't believe the country would be the better for it.  I have no problem with people learning English, having a common language has some very important practical aspects to it and it may help national unity.  But suggesting ethnic groups must move out of their communities in order to integrate into your idea of what America is, sounds controlling to me and reduces America to the least common denominater. Well at least that's my opinion.  In your model, Irish, Italian, and Slavic communities from the last century were a bad thing.  I live near San Fransisco, is China town bad? What about the Mission District which is heavily Latino?  I guess we need to tell the Filipino's out in Daly City to get out of town and move into the suburbs.

El Diablo

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Yes, posted by El Diablo on Feb 19, 2002

First, I make a distinction between having a "resturaunt row" and a subculture.

But, yes... I think that if we all stay in our own little worlds, America becomes Europe, and that is tragic.

America has grown to its prominence because it was "One Nation."

There is a famous quote by CS Lewis that describes what I am talking about.

CS Lewis was one of the most prominant christian writers of his day. Someone once asked him if the world needed more Chirstian books. He replied:

"We don't need more Christian Books. We need more Christians writing books."

Do you understand the distinction? How the former gets relegated to a special interest shelf of the bookstore, but how the latter can help change ideas?

I don't say that the Colombian sub-culture needs to become "whitebread americans"... I say that they need to become Americans. They need to speak the language, go to the schools, get good jobs, vote in elections, and speak out in the public debate. That's what I mean by assimilation.

And this is true of every nationality and ethnic group. Until they do that, theirs is just another "special interest" voice that no one is going to care about except their own "people".

That cheats America of having their ideas in the over-all marketplace of ideas.

Alex Rodriguez is the highest paid player in baseball not because of his ethnicity, not in spite of it... but because of the way he plays the game. Happily, his ethnic origin is irrelevant.

If we don't get that way in America at large, we're all in big trouble...

[El Diablo]

... in response to We'll have to disagree, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 19, 2002


The problem I have with your position is actually one of distinction and it seems to me to be a false distinction.  If I am to understand you,  on one hand you have set up this ideal about what it is to be a good American and on the other you have said that living in an ethnic community is somehow opposed to this.  I think this is a false dichotomy as I believe ethnic communities can and do have good Americans.  Are you saying that people in ethnic communities don't work, pay taxes or teach their children values and so forth.  I think they do and I see nothing wrong with living in an area where the cummunity shares things in common like religious, ethnic, or cultural traditions.  These communities are part of the strength of America not part of our weakness.

Now are there people who live in these ethnic communities, who for whatever reason never become full functioning members of society.  I'm sure there are but there are people like this everywhere in society, not just in the latin barrios.

El Diablo

[MarkInTx]

... in response to We'll have to disagree, posted by El Diablo on Feb 19, 2002


I said "sub-culture"

Maybe we need to define that?

A sub-culture is not just an "ethnic neghborhood."

Listen, I grew up in Pittsburgh. We had our ethinc communities. Nothing wrong with that.

We all knew where to go to get the best Lasagna, or Bagels, or Peroghis...

But we also all could speak the same language, and no one was asking for a special "Jewish ATM" to be installed, and when I called over to the italian district, they didn't answer the phone in italian and expect me to be able to speak their language.

There is a HUGE difference between an ethnic community and a sub-culture.

Until you can accept that, we really have nothing more to discuss...

This whole thread has become pointless...

[El Diablo]

... in response to You seem to ignore all my distinctions, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 19, 2002


I didn't ignore your distinctions but it seems you've forgotten your own words from this very thread.  If you remember I asked you specificly about ethnic communities and your response was VERY clear.  You made no distinction in your response between ethnic communities which I asked about and sub-cultures.

El Diablo;

OK Mark I understand what you are saying. On the other-hand does a person have to move out of their own ethnic community to be assimilated?

Mark's response;

YES And if they don't... our country is the worse for it.   If we all stay in our little communities, surrounded by our comfort zones, how is this country supposed to integrate all of the ideas from  all of the cultures.  I tire of special interests.  I wish we all had a common interest... and just different voices to express it.

Now if it bothers you that I'm questioning this than so be it, this is a discussion board and people will have different views.  I was careful to ask about ethnic communities because I thought it was a much more easily defineable classification than this idea of sub-culture. I know an ethnic community when I see it but sub-culture I'm not sure about.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Re: You seem to ignore all my distinctio..., posted by El Diablo on Feb 19, 2002

I'm not offended...

But when I said that, I was taking your broad definition of a sub-culture... You seemed to be using community and sub-culture interchangeably, so I responded as such.

To be distinct:

There is a difference.

Communities are good.

Sub-cultures are bad.

OK?

[El Diablo]

... in response to Disucss away, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 19, 2002


Mark writes;

But when I said that, I was taking your broad definition of a sub-culture... You seemed to be using community and sub-culture interchangeably, so I responded as such.

To be distinct:

There is a difference.
Communities are good.
Sub-cultures are bad.
OK?

Diablo responds;  (-:

I never defined sub-culture, it's your term not mine. I'm not exactly sure what it is to be honest and if you go back and read my posts I never even used the phrase except in the very last post above, long after your response of YES to my question.  So on the contrary, when I asked the question and CLEARLY used the term "ethnic community", I think it was you who were confused and responded in terms of sub-culture and not ethnic community as was written in my question.   I'm not a mind reader and so I can only go by your words, not your thoughts or intentions.

Anyway, is there even a difference between my view of an ethnic community and your term sub-culture.  If there is a distinction,  I'm not clear on what it is.

What I am clear on however is that you believe "communities are good" and "sub-cultures are bad".  (-:

El Diablo