gonna start posting, here is my story

[topgorilla]

Hi folks, I am Mark from Austin.  Here is a pic of my fiance and I.

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6159&hl=

Here is part of my story.  Married a long time to an American, finally ended it about 15 years ago.  At that point, I saw I was not going to find what I desired by looking in this country.  Looked in Russia, Indonesia, and Mexico.  Had a Russian in on a fiance visa, also met quite a few Mexican ladies, and a couple of Indonesians.  The Russian was a scammer, did not marry her.  Some of the Mexicans and Indonesians were wonderful, eventually married a very pretty Indonesian, who was nice, but was not really the best choice, except for her appearance.  Marriage lasted about 8 years.  I was already starting to research my next attempt before the divorce was final, she stayed past the divorce actually, for financial reasons.  She always went home before Christmas, this was really never home to her.  When she finally left, I was already looking.  And having contacted 100's of ladies over the years on these attempts, I am pretty effecient at this, and quite knowledeable on the subject in general.  I was thinking of China, but I remembered what someone else told me 10 years ago, about a guy who had gone to Vietnam, and how ladies would come up to him and try to get him interested in their daughters.  Same guy said to me "the people have to be discounted".  A nasty thought, or not phrased nicely, but there is some truth there also.  About Vietnam, yes, it is poor, but the people are really nice, actually quite wonderful.  Intelligent, motivated, excellent morals, most of the girls do not have sex until marriage.  Sooo....... I looked in Vn first, and if I had to do this thing over again, I would look there first last and only.  I am 53, and contacted only the prettiest girls listed on the site, from 18 to 27 or so.  Many had never been contacted until my letter.  I had about a 50% response rate, and about a 20% rate of ladies not being available logistically (moved, mail returned, sister responding saying other sister had moved, how about me?, whatever).  Of the respondents, about half of those seemed like excellent canditates.  1 scammer, 1 not mature enough, 1 who had already had a varied love life, 1 who was lazy, 1 who would do the deal, but had to have a payment to her family first.    Interesting note, the one I picked was 25 (I saw I could get all the way down to 18, but really wanted a bit more maturity than that) til I got there, she had signed up at 17 so had used her sister's id to get on the site, so she became 19 during my trip.  Talk about making time go backwards, I always liked the concept, but this was suprising.  (Her sister is equally awesome, with better English, and also available).  Still, she is very sincere, nice, never angry, really, the best one I have met in all them years, and then some.  I analyze these ladies like with a mental spreadsheet, maybe 10 things I rate, some categories have more importance than others.  I am prepared to compromise on some things, and even think it is natural and necessary, we will not get someone perfect.  Well, in 100's of emails, chats, (just 2 phone calls, too expensive), and a week with her (and meeting her family), I feel she is as close to perfection as I have ever met.   I mean, there is almost nothing more I could ask for.  I gave her my total commitment, emotional, financial, time.  It is pretty compelling when a girl as wonderful as this, a girl who has never been on a date, never been lied to, used, abused and brokenhearted, agrees to share her life with you.  Especially when you is me.  "I would never marry an American woman who would have someone like me for a husband".  

Okay, would be happy to go on about past deals, or more about this one, but just wanted to introduce myself here.  It took forever for me to get approved to post here, HaroldC pointed me to this forum, Harold, look forward to meeting you thru the airwaves sir. Your knowledge and experiences are the kinds of things I am looking for. I will be asking a few questions, and especially trying to correspond personally with other guys doing the Vn consulate thing, to trade notes on that.  Posted on the visajourney site, and some of those guys (and especially ladies) are not really the kind of folks I want to share notes with.  I don't mind opinions, or even an exchange of ideas that are conflicting with my own, as long as it is with intelligent people who try to share their honest thoughts, without going for personal attack.  Fair enough?

[Hamlet]

... in response to gonna start posting, here is my story, posted by topgorilla on Jun 7, 2004

Gorilla,

Great post, thank you.  I understand completely your voyage.  I am currently engaged to a VN woman and trying with some difficulty to navigate the fiance visa process.  Having traveled through Asia and Latin America and known many Russians, I feel that VN women are the best possible choice, with the exception of Japanese which are largely unavailable.

I wanted to use your method, but met one in person when I went who had excellent character and personality, educated and with experience to help me in my business and so I never got much of a chance to do the rundown of beauties.  Mine is average looking and older than I wanted at 38 (I am 49) but perhaps these are blessings in disguise as men are not so likely to hit on her and we are relatively close in age.  (Not that I think she will even look at another man because I do not think she will.) Also, as a VN woman passes her 30th birthday, she becomes undesirable to VN men, so this woman was doomed to spinsterhood and she appreciates me all the more, as I do her as I was already doomed to singlehood as an average-looking, 49 year old man in America.  Her large family treats me like a god, and there is no expectation that I must provide for them anything other than happiness for their daughter/sister.

She only had one boyfriend before me, so I know what you mean about the innocence.  I read the Latin board regularly and am shocked by what the men there are willing to put up with in terms of both lack of fidelity and lack of ambition.  My girl works at day (former teacher now principal of six elementary schools which means she runs the physical plants, academics, budgets, personnel, deals with student and parent issues) and goes to English school M-F at night.  Then recently she reduced her work hours to begin taking accounting and computer classes so she can get ready to help me in my real estate development activities.  Not what you would call lazy.

Even though she only makes $140/month, with one recent exception she has refused to accept any money from me in the last eight months even though her income has gone down (from fewer hours) and expenses have gone up from more classes.  Based on her experience in keeping six schools running on probably shoestring budgets and her own natural frugality, I know now she can be trusted with any of my accounts, personal and business.

Fed Confucian philosophy and having the concepts of yin and yang in her bones, I know that she will be a far more devoted wife than just about any other I could find.

Hamlet

[topgorilla]

... in response to My story similarities/differences, posted by Hamlet on Jun 9, 2004

Thanks very much for your response, you are exactly the kind of person I needed to find.  I hope you will be so kind as to share your experiences, and her experiences, as they relate to the visa/interview process.  With reference to your particular situation and observations, it seems to me you have pretty well sized up the reality of things.  If I were to add to your thoughts, while I would agree that these are some very fine women, I would state that the generalized lumping of young women into the same catagory worldwide is wrong when it includes Vietnam (probably some other countries as well).  Some gentleman here referenced mine as an "immature teenager".  Well, these are the same "immature teenagers" that kicked our collective butts in the war, to the point where we (with perhaps 500 times the national wealth) could only defeat them by nuking the entire mother grabbin country.  When the time comes to go to war, I want these people on my side.  So while I agree yours is probably a truly fine woman, I would state that a man has an excellent chance of getting those same qualities in any age woman from Vietnam, if he properly manages his search.   This carping I get about her age, I gotta tell you, I saw children down to any age that could walk that seemed more disciplined than our people, our adult people.  But I do think that we are so locked in to our biases and perceptions that we tend to generalize about things we know nothing about.  It doesn't really bother me, but it is a shame so many people are missing the boat on these extremely fine women.  With reference to the "innocence" (read virginity), I cannot speak for all of the country, and I did contact one who admitted to having had many experiences, but most of the ladies who I talked to (and got that far along with) told me that in their culture they do not have sex before marriage.  I think that is important for a couple of reasons, for one thing, they have not been lied to and abused, so they can go into the marriage as a "true believer", and if you do not ruin it, that is a very precious thing.  For another thing, it shows how they feel generally about marriage, they honor the concept, they wait for their husband, at war, when away from home, they wait for him before they have even met him.  I like that, and now, I am waiting for my wife, as she waits for me.  So I would agree with everything you have said, I would just add that if one desires a lovely young girl from that country, and gets to know her well, he can go into the relationship with a good chance of success, perhaps a better chance than the average deal like this with a woman of any age from most other countries.

[Hamlet]

... in response to very pleased to meet you sir, posted by topgorilla on Jun 9, 2004

I agree with you on age, and celebrate your wonderful find.  However, one challenge that you will have in the US is the sneers, glares and occasional verbal ridicule that you and your wife will suffer from American women due to your perceived age difference and your different ethnic backgrounds.  (Men will stare at you, too, but in the same way you would have stared at a high school classmate who shows up at school with his new Ferrari.)  You should mentally prepare yourself and you should prepare your woman for dealing with obnoxious AWs who will try to humiliate you.  Maybe we could have a chat sometimes and I will role play.  I think I could do a mean and cruel AW and know just how to push your buttons.

I don't expect much of a problem as my girl and I both look our age, but any such encounters will give me the opportunity to educate - if only briefly - someone who is ignorant of this new and wonderful culture I am marrying into.

Regarding the visa process, I have posted several things here recently about it.  Use the search function to find them.

If you want a reading list about VN I am accumulating some excellent books I can recommend.  These will help you with the cultural education process.  I am amazed at the men who marry women from other cultures and do not research the culture.

Hamlet

[topgorilla]

... in response to Re: very pleased to meet you sir, posted by Hamlet on Jun 9, 2004

obviously, I am well aware of this issue.  If the main response I get from American men on a forum like this is criticism of her youth, of course 98% of the rest of this country will only be worse.  I think you can tell I am rather detail oriented, so of course I have gone over this in great detail with her.  I disagree with you on one very important point though.  Here, on this forum, I would at least make a feeble attempt to educate men, in hopes that they will be able to find a lady as wonderful as mine.  With the general population in America, forget it.  I have told mine that it is a fool's errand to try to change their minds, and the only solution is to refuse to have those conversations in the first place.  Please share your list of books, my library concentrates on the war too much, perhaps I can get them through the intra library loan process.  See this post for a bit of detail on my favorite book about the subject of American men seeking asian women in general

http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/asian/messages/46975.html

Speaking of culture, while I generally agree with your statement, I also made the point that she was going to have to LIVE in this culture, and while we did not have to like everything about it, she certainly had to undederstand the ramifications, and accept that fact.  Easily stated, but a huge subject in its own right.  Again, thank you so much for your very helpful and intelligent posts, I am very glad to have met you.

[Troy]

... in response to uhh, aw = american women?, posted by topgorilla on Jun 9, 2004

You're rather harsh on those of us who offered you an opinion you didn't agree with.  Why did you even post on a public forum and solicit opinions if you're going to be so hostile toward opinions that go against your thinking.

It sounds like you're having some serious guilt trips about your situation with that very young girl, and you're trying to get reaffirmation from this board.

Frankly, I don't mind telling you what you need to be told. It's not that you're too old for that girl, it's that she's too young for you or any man at present.  And someone with 2 failed marriages should be wary of entering into a third one with a teenager from a 3rd world country who has never set foot in America.  

Flame me if you desire, but get use to hearing this opinion if you bring that young girl here to America.

[senior citizen]

... in response to uhh, aw = american women?, posted by topgorilla on Jun 9, 2004

I agree that you will have trouble from nosy, female, g-d***ed busybodies. All of them liberal, by the way. Not only will they make your relationship their business, but they will try to "reason" with your wife, attempting to get her to leave you! One particularly liberal wench with Birkenstocks, peasant clothing, multiple piercings and a 'way too skinny vegan figure even tried to get my wife to press charges of statutory rape against me, (then) twenty years after our marriage and even though Honey told her that she and her parents deceived me as to her age. And despite the fact that the age of consent in California at the time was 16. I have even found this problem in a certain Catholic Church, so we switched churches. Today, although I look pretty close to my senior citizen status, Honey, who is 40, looks closer to mid to late 20's. When these shrill shills get on her case about being married to an "old man", she tells them we have been married for nearly 25 years, and that we have two grown children, then they go from anger at me to envy of her continued youthful looks.

But love conquers all. Even selfish, stupid female storm troopers. You can get over it or around it. It helps if your wife is not intimidated by these fascists and instead gives as good as she gets, but that is unlikely in an Asian woman fresh from her native land. You'll have to help her deal with it, but the rewards are definitely worth the risk. If I allowed her, Honey would spoil me rotten. I hope you find the same relationship I have had for nearly a quarter of a century if you two decide to marry.

Oh, one thing, make sure she is absolutely fluent in English before any children you two may decide to have come along. It can be rather disconcerting to delivery room staff if the wife is shouting in a foreign language. Rather funny afterwards, but during the delivery it isn't too amusing. Honey was partnered in a labor room with a Chinese woman and she was NOT fluent in English, and the staff had a heck of a time communicating with her. Depending on where you settle, Vietnamese may not be something they are used to dealing with. Unless your wife is very comfortable in English, she will revert when the labor pains hit hard.

[topgorilla]

... in response to Re: uhh, aw = american women?, posted by senior citizen on Jun 9, 2004

I find your story about your wife's age to be very amusing, not in bad way.  It was quite charming the way my fiance told me about her actual age, also amusing, but not as funny as your story.  I do think these gentlemen who have limited exposure to asia/asians have not made the mental leap to understanding the different world view between our countries and some of theirs.  I cannot claim to completley understand theirs (world view), but I can sure enough see that they have the potential to do things a lot differently than we do, often out of necessity.  Reading about how the Vietnamese struggled like ants to defeat our mobile army is really inspiring.  Seeing them continue to struggle like that shows you how they have strengths that many of us are not even aware of.  One of my favorite scenes is my fiance and her sister, not poor girls for vietnam, probably upper middle class, as they go into the streets.  They put on their dust masks, they put on these long gloves that go way up their pretty arms, hats, coats (most girls never seem to wear shorts there, too provacative) like beautiful, sweet little girls, girding for battle.  They get on their motor scooters and shove off into that chaos, like angels passing through hell.  My fiance drove me around quite a bit, all 200 lbs of me on the back of her scooter, never killed us even once.  I was impressed, and extremely happy, not just living thru it, but having my arms around her, being there, it was wondeful.  

I would take a contrary view to what you and other well meaning gentlemen have told me about dealing with the people (of both sexes, but especially women) who are going to have negative things to say.  I have had a foreign wife aready, as well as other foreign entanglements in the past.  Look at the gentlemen who post here, even many of them have these same kinds of comments, and I cannot change their attitudes.  I KNOW I (or she) will not change the attitude of the average women she contacts.  We (my fiance and I) have discussed this in great detail, and I have made this demand, and I only dictate when it is absolutely necessary.  She is not allowed to enter into those conversations, her response is to be, "I would be happy to be your friend, but as a matter of policy, I will not discuss my marriage with others."  She can say it is a cultural thing, or whatever, I am sure she will be nice about it, she is very nice, but she knows how it will be.  I posted on visajourney, where most people should have been supportive, as they have all done more or less the same thing as us, and it was the same deal only moreso.  I sent my fiance the response, so she would see what it will be like.  We are not going to change these folkers (thats f o l k e r s, not f, uhhh, you get the picture) minds, and we are not going to try.

I would be happy to share viewpoints, and my knowledge and experience with any well meaning, open minded gentlemen on this site.  I would even be happy to send the details on my beautiful young fiance's beautiful young sister to anyone who has enough snap to be worthy of her.  But to all the folks who find fault with my situation, I would say, find something else to complain about.  I know what I am doing, am very good at it, and don't need the advice.  I do not consider your comments to be of that nature, you have an honest, well reasoned opinion, and stated it without malice, in the spirit of friendship and helpfulness.  And that kind of comment I gladly accept, and often can find useful.  

Yes, we are definetely going to marry, and we are not having children, as I do not want to be raising children for the next 20 years.  She accepted that, women there want to have at least one child, that was her first comment, but she was perfectly willing to accept not having children as well.  Thanks very much for your nice letter.

Mark

[Troy]

... in response to thanks for your insight sir, posted by topgorilla on Jun 9, 2004

You seriously think you can deny a 19 year old girl her natural impulse to have children?  You're either in serious denial, or a fantasy land.  Either way, this ones heading for disaster.

[topgorilla]

... in response to gonna start posting, here is my story, posted by topgorilla on Jun 7, 2004

"From the way you described your search for a wife, I would have to say that you are really bucking the odds. Hopefully it will work out for you, but I would not recommend your methods for other guys out there starting a search."

Well, I have not really detailed my methods yet, so your comment there is not very meaningful.  I can tell you that I am one of the most knowledgeable people out there on this subject in general, and my intentions are twofold.  First, to seek information from other people who are going thru the process in Vietnam.  Second, to attempt to help and share my knowledge with sincere people who could benefit from my experience.  You will not notice on this list, running off my big mouth on some subject I know nothing about, or belittling the honest attempts of others for no reason.  

"First, you seem to have been all over the globe in your search. Nothing really wrong with that, but I think it is extremely important to have an extensive knowledge of the country and culture of your future wife. You said you spent a week in Vietnam. Was that your first trip? Have you studied the culture and people extensively? If not, then you are almost asking for difficulties in your marriage."
 
The marriage to a foreigner is offers rewards far greater than are generally available in this country, especially to a middle aged man of average appearance.  To anyone of any age or appearance, it also includes many dangers, which need to be considered and addressed.  This is a large subject, deserving of its own thread.  I probably read more books on Vietnam (or any country I studied) than the average person reads (in toto) in 10 years.  

"Next, you are in your fifties and are marrying a teenager. That has worked for many guys, but the odds of a disastrous marriage ore greatly increased with an age difference like that. You said you preferred a little more maturity, but you admitted to limiting your contacts to only the youngest girls."

Here is what I actually said.
I …contacted…girls… from 18 to 27 or so.   …the one I picked was 25 (I saw I could get all the way down to 18, but really wanted a bit more maturity than that)

Only the youngest girls would have been 18 to 21.  Read again my statement.  Honestly guys, if you are going to criticize  what I am doing, please consider the factual information I have taken the time to share, and avoid statements that fly in the face of reality.  I will be happy to share my experiences and knowledge, but only in a collegial atmosphere, with intelligent, courteous people who use solid reasoning and do not bend or ignore the facts.  

"I don’t have any personal hang-ups with the age difference, except for the extremely high risk of failure when marrying an immature teenager."

Immature teenager is great, are all teenagers immature, are all middle aged men dirty old men?  The maturity of a young asian woman versus a young American woman deserves its own thread, I think just lumping all these wonderful people into a group like “immature teenager” does quite a disservice to the strength of these fine people.

"For guys in their fifties, I strongly recommend looking for ladies over thirty to help limit the risks."
 
Possibly good advice, but way too narrowly stated.   This whole concept of marriage to a foreigner is so “specialized”, it seems to me one must be able to analyze each situation as it is presented.  Yes, one can make generalizations, but a man must have the skill, ability and aptitude to look well at each woman who honors him with her offer of a chance for marriage and happiness.  

"Again on the age issue, you said you only learned her true age after you arrived in Vietnam. After hundreds of e-mails and chats, she never told you that she had misrepresented her age by 8 years?"    

She was 24 when we started corresponding, 25 when I went on my trip, so in reality 18 and then 19.  6 years, not 8.  Not that 2 years makes any difference, again it bothers me that people will make statements like this and distort the facts, or just not pay attention to them.   If you want to have an intelligent debate, don’t make stuff up.

"That is a BIG red flag IMHO. If she was untruthful about her age, there is a much higher risk that she is being untruthful about other things. Honesty must be at the heart of any successful relationship and any signs of dishonesty early on should be a warning of future problems. Be careful! One more point on age. I believe that in Vietnam they count their age differently so that they are often actually a year younger than they say (age 1 year at birth)."

Okay, this may be a valid point.  Were you honest about everything with your fiancé?  There are things I have done that I will never tell anyone, sorry guys.  I did not mislead her on anything important, but I did not tell her about the fantasy I had of making love to my 240Z, she just would not understand, and it was not important.  She told me her real age, and why she had to misstate it to get listed,  before she agreed to marry.  To her, the age was not important. Mine or hers. I would share the charming note she gave me, she wrote it rather than said it, it was one of the most treasured moments of my life.  However, I don’t feel the atmosphere here is entirely one of trust and mutual help.  Yes, she said she was 20, due to the way they count, 19 is the real number by our count.  

"You also said that you have only talked on the phone twice because it was too expensive? In my opinion...weekly phone calls of one hour length are appropriate."

That is your opinion, fine.  My opinion is that the lady has to put a lot more effort into a letter than a phone call.  Kinda like watching TV versus reading, you can say you are educated because you watch a lot of TV, but my opinion is the written word is far more important than the spoken word, for a deal like this.  

"Also, you said that you contacted only the prettiest girls on the Web site. I think that is a big mistake for most guys selecting ladies to correspond with. Going for the best looking ones can often result in a high risk for failure. There is nothing wrong with looking for a very beautiful mate, but again, the risks are just that much higher. Marriage is always a risk, but I think the key to your selection criteria should be to minimize the risks wherever possible. That’s why I always recommend that the guys take a second look at the “ugly ones” on those pen-pal sites."

Well, your concept has some merit, but I do not agree.  Minimize risk would mean marrying someone so pitiful that she would be extremely grateful and never leave you.  Look guys, I have looked this game over very well.  Here is the fact.  You want an intelligent, motivated, pretty girl, who has never been kissed, never had her heart broken, whose culture tells her to honor her marriage, look in Vietnam.  Risks, h… yes there are risks.  It is all about risk reward.   You don’t have to marry an ugly one.  You can if you want to, they are fine ladies too.  But you don’t have to.  I do agree that most beautiful ladies have “issues”.  But in Vietnam, beauty is everywhere, among the rubble.  

"Another point you made in another post when discussing communication methods was “she must prove her sincerity and commitment, and show her real self…”. I agree with you, but I just wanted to remind others that it works both ways. We should never forget that it is equally important that the ladies see the man’s real self. It is also critical that she make a good choice based on her knowledge of your character. Always make sure that she is aware of your major faults and that she sees the real you! Some guys tend to hide all of their negative characteristics to the where the poor lady has no idea what she is getting into until it is too late."

I totally agree with that in its entirety.  The only thing I would add is this, use your computer, write your letters, save your work.  Make a really good detailed letter for your first letter you can send to everyone.  At least 2 pages single spaced.  Of course you can add a few things to make it seem that it is just to her.  Especially her name.  You can also have a second or even third letter that is more or less the same for everyone.  To do this correctly, you really have to treat this as a part time job, or a business.

"Again, my intention is not to put you down, but rather to help educate any new guys out there who are trying to figure out how to formulate a plan for meeting and courting someone overseas."

Okay, if that is your intent, fine, but I would posit that the info you are putting out there is partially opinion, perhaps not entirely based on fact, and certainly not right for everyone.  I would encourage men to consider various points of view, realizing that what works for one man may not work for another.

"I wish you luck in your marriage and congratulations on finding a nice girl."
(end of Ray's post)

"Glad to hear your story. Yes, VN women have an special allure unlike many other Asians, along with an honesty and naievate that's hard to match. They also integrate into the US pretty well (except for the driving part.)

Well, you should see them drive in Saigon, it is quite an experience.  They certainly have the ability to drive, but they will sure have to learn a different technique, just as ours must go out the window in their world.  To call it insane is a considerable understatement.    Would you consider adding your picture to the Asian Sweetie web site, here http://www.geocities.com/jeffsatpl/"

(end of Jeff's post)

Yes, but more importantly I would like to post the pic of her sister (the 23 year old) who is a wonderful girl, really intelligent, good English, and available.  Thanks for that opportunity.

(Ahh yes, lastly, Troy's witty remarks)
"Hi Mark,
Not a personal attack, just an observation.

Have you ever considered that marriage just isn't for you? You've had 2 long term marriages that have failed, there's no reason to believe that another will work out."

Well, I don’t consider it a very well  thought out observation.  Have you ever considered the fact  that when marriage became an institution, the average life expectancy was 15 years.  (Not life of the marriage, life of the average person).  We are privileged to have life piled upon life.  

Have you ever done the math on how many relationships the average person in this country enters and exits, but we don’t make them marriages because we are so casual about it?  More than 2?  I honestly believe some people aren’t meant to post intelligently, because they base their comments on minimal education/fact, instead they just can’t wait to shoot off an opinion.  Just an observation.   Sorry, I would not make such a mean spirited statement, except you iced it with your comment on promising the world to her.  Where does it say I promised her the world?  Where?  If you guys are just going to post this kind of nonsense, you can count me out.

"I honestly believe some people are meant to be married, based on their character, personality, life experience, and family background. Likewise, some people are not, based on the same attributes. Before you promise the world to a very, very young girl, you should honestly consider if you are not leading her down the same path of failure that your prior 2 wives had to endure."

How do you know what my previous wives had to “endure”?   Maybe they liked it.  Maybe they ended it for other reasons or their own?  If you are really so knowledgeable about these concepts, start a thread on the subject in general, as you certainly do not know enough about me to make a meaningful observation, or if you do, you missed your chance so far.  

[Ray]

... in response to the gorilla responds to ALL, posted by topgorilla on Jun 8, 2004

No reason to get all defensive Gorilla. I was merely offering some differing ideas and opinions :-)

Gorilla: “She was 24 when we started corresponding, 25 when I went on my trip, so in reality 18 and then 19. 6 years, not 8. Not that 2 years makes any difference, again it bothers me that people will make statements like this and distort the facts, or just not pay attention to them. If you want to have an intelligent debate, don’t make stuff up.”

I’m really sorry if I got the number of years wrong. No, I’m not in the habit of making stuff up or distorting the facts. I was merely using your numbers where you said that the one you picked was 25 but later found out that she was only 17 when she signed up. I got the 8-year figure by subtracting 17 from 25. Call it a misinterpretation of your words :-). Anyway, whether it was 6 or 8 years isn’t important. The point that I was making was that a lady misrepresenting her age should be considered a red flag IMO. I did not say it should be an automatic disqualifier. I have no problem if you choose to ignore that, but I recommend that others pay close attention to those little things if they should come up.

And yes, of course the info I was putting out is partially opinion and based on my own experiences. And I agree with you that we should consider all points of view and that what works for one man may not work for another.

Ray

[topgorilla]

... in response to Re: the gorilla responds, posted by Ray on Jun 9, 2004

"immature teenager" in your post?  Yes, I agree, the 2 years is not really an issue, but the nature of some of these posts in general is what led me to respond as I did.  When you get away from facts and start using your generalized biases (such as "immature teenager) to describe my specific situation, I feel your response loses credibility.  It certainly does me no good, and worse, it may cause people just learning about this whole field to accept your biases and opinions (which by their very nature can be wrong) as fact.  If you were not the one who used that phrase, forgive me, I am not looking thru all that right now, but I do recall that your post surprised me, while you seem quite intelligent, I would expect you to be more open minded in a forum like this one.

[Ray]

... in response to aren't you the same gentlman who used th..., posted by topgorilla on Jun 9, 2004

Why, you don’t think teenagers are immature?

Aren’t YOU the gentleman who used the phrase “I saw I could get all the way down to 18, but really wanted a bit more maturity than that”? Were you not implying that an 18-year-old was immature simply by reason of her age? Now who’s response is losing credibility? :-)

Yes, I do believe that a teenager is considered immature compared to a 53-year-old. I raised 3 teenagers so I think I speak from experience (LOL).

And why are you so concerned that people just learning about this whole field may accept my biases and opinions as fact? I never proclaimed my opinions to be fact, did I? Are your biases and opinions any better or worse that mine or anyone else’s here? I think not. I really don’t care who accepts my opinions. That’s not why I am here.

Are you going to nit-pick every little word that someone posts here? How about we simply stop playing these little semantic games and express our own opinions in a civil manner? Deal?

Peace,

Ray

[topgorilla]

... in response to Re: aren't you the same gentlman who use..., posted by Ray on Jun 9, 2004

immature, until I got to know these people, and I made the trip.  I will let others judge if your opinions or mine are better or worse, yes, it really does not matter to me either, I have found what I seek in the foreign woman department, I am really just looking for specific information here.  If someone else can use my experience to his advantage, fine, if not, fine.  With reference to raising American teenagers, I think that kinda illustrates quite a large part of my argument.  If your perceptions are based on what goes on in this country (as you imply), then I think you are missing the central point: the differences in charachter between the people of this country and peoples from other countries.  These are not word games, I referred to you as a gentleman because I am being civil, but I also have a lot of knowledge about this subject in general, so my words and thoughts might be meaningful to someone who needs the info.  If they are not meaningful to you, I kindly suggest you ignore and not respond to my posts.

[Ray]

... in response to yes, I felt that teenagers generally wer..., posted by topgorilla on Jun 9, 2004

No, my perceptions are not based solely on what goes on in this country. I have traveled in and lived in Asia and from what I’ve seen, teenagers over there are pretty much like teenagers anywhere. Maturity is relative. You can tell yourself that a teenage girl in Asia is at a similar maturity level to a 50-something American man if you want, but I ain’t buying it. I have nothing against you marrying a teenager, but I hope for your sake that you at least recognize that there are likely to be some serious maturity issues that you are going to have to deal with sooner or later. I truly hope that you are successful.

If you take a little time to read the archives here, you may just discover that you aren’t the only one on this forum who has “a lot of knowledge about this subject in general”. There are many very knowledgeable and experienced folks around here.

Gorilla: “If they are not meaningful to you, I kindly suggest you ignore and not respond to my posts”.

Huh? O.K., and if you don’t want anyone to disagree with something you post here, may I kindly suggest that you don’t post here. Makes about as much sense, right? LOL!

Ray :-)