Thought on E-mail vs Snail Mail

[Howard]

One thing that I have noticed about the guys here is that we all blaze our own trails.  We share information, expiriences, ideas, etc... but in the end we are all individuals and will go about this our own way.  What works for one us, may well put another on the road to disatser!  The best advice I can give to newbies is to find the way that makes you the most comfortable and stick to it.  It requires great conviction, patience and luck to succeed at this.  There is no, one, perfect approach.  Everyone here has used a slightly different method to succeed or fail.  The one constant is that we are all looking for something better.

Every now and then the subject of how to best correspond arises.  There are two major camps:  Letter Writers and The Internet Junkies.  I have been both, so I usually feel compelled to offer my opinions when the issue comes up for debate.

I started as a Letter Writer.  In 1995, when I first considered this option for finding a partner, the Internet was not a vialble option for communication.  You could find young ladies online, but you had to purchase thier Snail Mail addresses and go Postal from there.

Briefly, I corresponed with probably 40 women or so over the course of two years.  Many only once.  If there was no hope of compatability, I just passed and moved on.  

I met my former wife through one of those sites.  It's now defunct.  We corresponded by Mail for 18 months before my first Visit to the Philippines.  I spent a few weeks there, was treated well and came home engaged.  We were married in July of 2000.

My marriage was not a very positive expirience to say the least.  My wife was a relative stranger.  She was not even CLOSE to the person I felt I knew through long passionate letters and a brief courtship in person.  I saw Red Flags.  Red Flags were pointed out to me by those who care about me.  I ignored Red Flags.  My marriage ended never being given a chance by my wife.

In her letters my wife was happy and carefree.  She even seemed to have a decent sense of humor.  In person my wife was depressed and distant.  She had no sense of humor whatsoever!

When push came to shove she did the right thing.  She did stand up to her Cousin, who was looking for a payday at my expense.  She refused to try and milk her Golden Cow.  She just wanted the misery to end.  Finally I obliged.

I was devestated.

I went back to this board as a source of therapy.  Who else would understand and not snicker?  The best advice I got while I was going through it was from the guys/gals here.  One of them even went as far as to locate my estranged wife, while she was in Manila, on his vacation to try and lend a hand.  Without him I probably would not be able to marry the love of my life this fall.  Without him I would still be struggling to get a divorce in absentia.  Without him--and his lovely bride --my life could be quite different today!

That's the kind of people that frequent this board.

During the drama one of the younger guys asked me a good question.  I believe it was my old buddy Kevin  He asked, "What would you do differently?"

My wife confessed that the bulk of my correspondence was with her mother.  Often she was away when my letters came and her mother didn't want me to loose interest if I didn't get a speedy reply.  It started out that innocently.  Was it any wonder that my wife was a stranger?  She wasn't answering my detailed questions, her mother was!  We all know there is a HUGE difference between the way we think and the way our parents would prefer we thought.

Kevin's question made me analyze my mistakes.  Besides looking for someone who lived much closer to a large city, the most important change I would make was trying to find a way to communicate more often.  The answer, for me, has been the internet.

I understand the internet can be expensive and that many quality young ladies may have gotten over looked simply because they are too poor or have no consistant access to the internet.  Well... you have to narrow the field somehow.  I couldn't risk long thought out responses that were crafted by everyone in the family.  I wanted realtime, quick respones to my questions.  That left Chat and Phone conversations.  Chat seemed to be the best way to get a feel for their personality.  Phone conversations would come later if we seemed to click.  That was my plan and I intended to stick to it.

Luckily for me, before I even really started looking, my Gerlie found me.  I had joined a site out of boredom.  To be honest, I was trying to rule out the idea of marrying another Filipina.  I had no idea I would be able to trust someone in these circumstances, I just figured it made the most sense that this was the way to try.

Spared the pain of starting all over again from scratch, Gerlie and I became good friends.  There was no pressure to become committed.  We simply enjoyed talking to each other.  The more we talked, the more we realized we had in common.  The longer we compared notes on our ideas of a good life, the more clear it became that we should consider the idea of a romantic realtionship.

To be perfectly honest, I had feelings for Gerlie almost immediately.  She is charming, intellegent, funny and sweet.  We grew close very quickly, but certain circumstances pervented us from moving faster than it might have been wise to.  Through certain trials we found out that we were both willing to take things slow enough to be sure that we were making the right decisions.  Her dedication and understanding long ago proved to me that she is the one.  Mine must have convinced her as well

Without the benefit of the internet, not only would I probably never have met her, I would never have been able to amass the confidence to proceed.  Gerlie and I have talked just about EVERY DAY since we met Jan 10th, 2002.  We also email and talk on the phone regularly.  And I am confident that I knew her FAR better in 6 months than I did my former wife in 3 YEARS!  Sometimes the quantity of communication IS what makes it quality.  I could NEVER have gotten to know her this well--and vise versa--with the the benefit of the internet.

We plan to be married in October of this year.  That is the heavily abridged version of my story.  I hope you all have the luck I did and find the true acceptance and happiness that I have found.  Or should I say the true acceptance and happiness that has found me

Keep the Faith!

H

[Ray]

... in response to Thought on E-mail vs Snail Mail, posted by Howard on Jun 9, 2004

[This message has been edited by Ray]

Hi Howard,

Some good thoughts and a good topic.

Sadly, I think the days of letter writing are just about gone. Before Al Gore invented the Internet (LOL), we didn’t have much choice. AT&T was the only long distance company and they charged $3/hr to call the Philippines, with similar rates to other Asian countries. I used to spend almost a week’s pay for one phone call, so I couldn’t do it very often. The call usually had to be placed from the Philippine end because almost nobody had a phone in their house back then, and the lines at the telephone exchange were crazy. I know the frustration she felt trying to call me collect from the Phils because after we married I had to call her from the Phils, or various other Asian countries, when she was living here in the States and I was deployed.

When I was courting my first wife and later when we were married, we used to always try to write to each other every day, even if it was just a short note to say hi and I love you. It was just a part of our daily lives to write and wait in anticipation to see if the mail dude had something for us in the day's delivery. It was kind of tough when I was out at sea, because sometimes we wouldn’t get mail for weeks at a time, and even then it could often take up to a month for delivery.

Sitting down to write a letter seemed to give me the chance to really express my feelings, and my wife’s letters were always well written and carefully thought out. There was just something about holding that letter in your hands, smelling the perfume or cologne she had sprinkled on the pages, and staring at the photos we used to send each other all the time. Sometimes I could see a tear stain on the page if she was writing about an emotional topic. We sent lots of greeting cards, for special occasions and just the ‘miss you’ kind. Letters are just so much more personal than Internet chats or e-mails.

With my current wife, we used to use all of the communication channels together. I tried to write a daily letter and she almost kept up with me. We also e-mailed almost daily and talked on the phone once or twice a week. We used the Internet chat also when we get on line at the same time. Sometimes we would answer a question in a letter over the internet if it was important, but we also took the time to carefully reply to each question or topic in our postal letters. The Internet is a fabulous tool and the cost is going down all the time. My wife used to pay P35-50 per hour a few years ago to use the Internet cafes, but I understand that now it’s down to about P15 where she lived. The postage was running from 60-80 cents for me and I think about P15 for her and the phone calls for me were about 20-30 cents per minute when we started corresponding. That sure beats $3/min in 1970 dollars! We also used the free SMS sites extensively to send text massages back and forth before the Philippine cellular companies blocked them all. I can remember sending and receiving 20-30 text messages a day sometimes!

I have noticed recently that very few of the younger guys ever write a letter to their loved one overseas. They think I’m nuts when I tell them to submit 5-6 snail mail letters in the original envelope with postmarks for their visa interviews. I guess the consular officers must be getting used to having the girls show up with a big box of chat transcripts and nothing else. Some guys even send them a CD where they burned all of their chat transcripts, expecting the poor consular officer to pop it in his PC and read all that junk (ROFL).

Yes, I’m afraid that letter writing is a dying art. It’s really kind of sad I think :-(

BTW, your visa is sure taking a long time! What’s the latest status?

Ray

[Keith NC]

... in response to Thought on E-mail vs Snail Mail, posted by Howard on Jun 9, 2004

Howard,

That was a great post and I am sorry that things didn't work our with your first wife.  Looking back you got a lady that is 100 times better.  I believe that things always have a way of working themselves out.  I also agree with you about email versus snail mail.  I prefer email and chating any day over snail mail.  I know each guy prefers his own method but I also like the fast responses.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Keith

[topgorilla]

... in response to Thought on E-mail vs Snail Mail, posted by Howard on Jun 9, 2004

I was looking for an old refence I recalled and was suprised to be directed to this very site.  It is the book Gary Clark did on the subject, find the reference on the home page here, the deal on the "mail order bride".  Anyway, Mr. Clark goes into a lot of detail on the need to have a lengthy correspondence.  I think there is a lot of truth there.  Now, you are quite right when you say that what works for one may not work for another.  But, there are some good generalizations to be made.  Here is a new one I am gonna throw out there.  This thing is such a big subject, I mean, we are almost searching worldwide for someone, that it is almost to your advantage to do it incorrectly once.  Now, I don't think we should marry, have a child, pay child support for 20 years, and some of the other tragedies that can happen.  Actually, what may be best would be to fall for some girl, go through most of the process, then suffer failure.  Hopefully without hurting her, or yourself too badly.  Now, the reason I say this is I feel the biggest error I see is not with the ladies involved, it is with the men.  The men are not sufficiently motivated, they don't learn about the country in question, not financially prepared, not ready to change their American values enough to be worthy of some of these fine ladies, I mean, lots of things we do not do correctly.  So, a good dose of reality can be just what the doctor ordered to get focused for the real deal.  ANYWAY, about the subject at hand, until you are sufficiently skilled/focused/educated/motivated, it may not really matter how we go about it, because  we are not putting enough into it, or making good decisions.  I do not want to offend you sir, about the thing you went thru, I certainly made my mistakes as well. You mentioned red flags, I had similar situations, or at least similar in the red flags.  Once it was so clear, I pulled the plug on a fiance I had brought in.  Once it was marginal, and had a long term marriage to a girl that was not perfect, but not bad.  Red flags there, but it worked out okay for us both, ended at the perfect time.  Still, I knew I was not doing exactly the right thing, and got my just desserts.  And once I did not marry one of the finest girls I have ever known, because I wanted someone a little prettier.  I recall it as if it was yesterday, and may never forgive myself.  What a fool I was.  Anyway, we ignore these warnings at our peril, and I do think we are not really going to do the right thing until we have seen where the wrong thing will lead us.  Maybe some of us get lucky and stumble onto the perfect one the first time around, and don't get a chance to ignore the caution lites, or maybe some of us are so disciplined they can make the right decision without having to learn the hard way.  Anyway, seems that some of these issues are more important than the actual way of conversing.  Like your deal, not sure it matters how you are conversing, if you are being misled like you were.  The moment of truth comes when you meet, and she is not the woman you talked to, and you do the deal anyway, or me, when I saw the problems with my ex, and did the deal.  The main thing, if you can control yourself, is how to get the lady to best show her real self.  Here is something I recall, when I was trying to hire someone a long time ago, and had interviewed some folks.  I asked them to write a page or so about what they thought of the job, and the business, how they could help, that sort of thing.  Boy, talk about a wakeup, there is nothing like getting a person on paper to get past the bs.  That is why I think they should write, be it email or letters, I think they should get it in writing.  Written chat is not as good (in my opinion) due to the speed we can type and do English versus their skill (for most of them and us).  So they just tag along on that.  Same kind of thing on the phone, and we get too excited hearing the female voice.  For my money, they have to put it in writing to make me a believer.  The more the better.  At this point in my experience, it is usually rather clear to me what her real agenda and charachter is like after about the 6th real letter (if not sooner).  So then the question becomes, can you pull the plug on a situation you are already emotionally involved in?  If you can't (at any point in the process), you are setting yourself up for failure.  So, yes, the mechanics of all this is extremely important, but even moreso is how you manage yourself in the process.

[Howard]

... in response to fascinating post, and important subject, posted by topgorilla on Jun 9, 2004

[This message has been edited by Howard]

TG~

You brought up a great point, knowing yourself and how to keep "in control" cannot be stressed enough.

I readily admit, in hindsight, that I was caught in a whirlwind when My first wife got here.  My family went on auot-pilot with their oldest getting married and I barely saw my wife until we were married.  I had a little apprehension and chalked it all up to the dreaded "Cultural Differences".  Any Red Flags I saw in the time between her arrival and our marriage were ignored out of pride on my part.  A mistake that only snowballed over time.

I don't have many regrets.  Things turned out pretty well for me.  I have realized what my contribution was to our failures and now know how to avoid them.  I have definitely changed since those days.  I am a better man for accepting the things I cannot change.

The biggest change has been my Fiancee  She is truly one of a kind and I am lucky to have won her heart!  We have respect and aprreciation for each other and accept each other exactly how we are.  I think people--all people in all relationships--don't place enough emphasis on friendship as a foundation for their relationship.  Out of the women I have spent time with, Gerlie is the only one I would hang out with and just shoot the breeze.  Our personalities compliment each other VERY well.  My confidence in her, gives me confidence in myself

Great Point... sorry I got off on a tangent

Keep the Faith and Welcome to the board

H

[Bear]

... in response to Thought on E-mail vs Snail Mail, posted by Howard on Jun 9, 2004

The net is the best way to go if you use your head and aren't afraid to say what you mean and then mean what you say.  Ask questions - I have hundreds that I sent in many e-mails.  I answerewd every one I asked too.  It wasn't an interregation but more "hey I don't know how else to learn about you".  The questions initially lead to conversations that helped us learn of and know each other.  Try to trick them up.  I promise they won't mind if they are serious about you because they'll know you are serious and about having a successful relationship.  I bet they do you too.

Hormones are wonderful in their proper place, which in my theory was after the marriage.  It seemed in my past (like Keith in the post below this one) hormones and "feelings" made too many choices.  Dating Honey, and I do consider our courtship over the internet dating, discussed more things in 8 months than I discussed with my first wife in 24 yrs, 11 mo and 10 days.  I was able to describe expectations and beliefs and how I wanted to performed in a marriage and the things I hoped for in marriage.  Surely we all know when push comes to shove we give in a lot on these things but to say it up front and have them know that its in your heart, mind and desires. Makes it more difficult to ignore, especially if you are performing as you claimed.  Mean what you say.

One of the things that hit me right up front is Filipinas do not like wimps.  They don't like pushy controlling jerks either.  But if they succeed in walking on you then buddy just bend over and grab your feet, because they've lost all respect for you and its "pilosopo" (your fault, because you didn't ask and they didn't tell").  They usually write it in their advertisements for a pinpal as they "want a simple life".  What they are saying is they want to make few decisions but they want it to all be decided in their favor.  They will support and respect man that makes their life simple.  Unfortunately you better know what they think is a "simple life", many who go through this process don't.  Then again in your favor, many impoverist people will say/do what ever it takes to succeed in their goal.  (Thats why you ask lots of questions and try to trip them up.)  Not only do many do this on their own but they are encouraged and prodded on by family/friends who see and end to poverty and hard times.  A "good daughter" listens to her parents and wants her family to know she is a good daughter.  

Fortunately my wifes family raised her to be a good wife over a good daughter so she could not do the things they demanded of her after we married.  Things have all turned out for the best now but at first she was despised and mistreated by family, friends and neighbors for honoring her husband over family.  Once I explained our currency and expenses versus theirs and my goals for our family they apologized.  Now, they are on the receiving end of family treating them poorly and despising them because they receive funds from us that is really too small to share but enuogh to make life better for them.  I wish I could say payback was sweet but in this case its sad.

I think If I hasd any advise for anyone who wanted to use this method of finding a mate I'd say more than anything, "If you can't ask a question thats important to you and make a reasonable decision from that question then don't get married because you will destroy lives, starting with yours".  Discuss your dreams, and mean what you say and you will be a success.

The Bear Family

[andrew99]

... in response to I completely agree, posted by Bear on Jun 9, 2004

You stated they don't respect a guy who will let her walk over him.  But yet, if a guy won't let her walk over him, he won't make every decision in her favor.  Essentially, you're making a contradiction here.

[Bear]

... in response to Disagree, posted by andrew99 on Jun 10, 2004

or at least not very long.  If my wife wants it, she gets it.  It really makes little difference to me because not much else means anything to me but her love.  I don't spoil her because I'm not rich, but I pay attention to her wants and desires and provide them.  I don't push her to do what I think she should do.   If I know she has a need, want or desire that she needs help in procuring then I believe it falls on me to make it happen, if Heavenly Father so permits.

A man who makes a womans life "simple" makes her 100% of his purpose in the day.  If you found the right girl then you'll notice she's doing the same.

This is all very different than letting someone boss you around or control you with cruel and self-serving lies.  It takes communication and a true desire to make the other person as happy as you possible can.

the 5 types of marriage....

1)  the selfish marriage - this is the one where you enter into the marriage expecting ABC and when you don't get it then you quit.  Studies show this marriage last 6-18 months.

2)  the compromise marriage - like the selfish marriage you go into this one thinking you'll show how much you love the other by compromising things you wanted for the wants of the other.  Unfortunately this is still a selfish marriage and eventually you feel like the other party isn't compromising enough and you split.  This one last 18-36 mo.

3)  you changed marriage - actually I don't remember much about this category other than it last on any part of 3-18 years because people change and you don't want what the other became.

4)  single self sacrificer - This is the one where you put up with the other even though its not what you wanted, needed or expected but you feel and obligation to stay for some reason like kids.  Usually last 18-25 years.  (This was my first marriage - 24 years 11 mon 10 days)

5)  100-100 marriage - thinking little about yourself you see to it that you mate is satisfied to you best ability.  You found the right girl, having learned about each other, and maked a commitment to the covenent, you'll find that your mate is doing the same for you.  Everything you hoped marriage would be like usually occurs and all the thing you thought would come in a selfish marriage probably happen with one major exception - its given to you by your mate and not yourself.  Studies show 1 in 17 families who follow this category ever divorce.

This information was taken from a magazine called the "Ensign".  I forgot the year but if someone insist i'll find it and post the link.

[andrew99]

... in response to I suspect you aren't married, posted by Bear on Jun 11, 2004

I think I read about the five types of marriages somewhere before.  Maybe it was in the archives or somewhere else.  You're hunch is right, I'm not married and never have been.

[Howard]

... in response to Disagree, posted by andrew99 on Jun 10, 2004

[This message has been edited by Howard]

A-99,

You don't have to let your wife walk on you to make decisions that are in her favor.  What's best for me should be what's best for my family.  In a solid marriage there is no "what's best for me", only "what's best for US"

IMHO there is a HUGE difference between being walked on and placing the needs of my family above my personal wants/needs.

Your Milage May Vary...

Keep the Faith!

H

[nealt]

... in response to I Disagree as well, posted by Howard on Jun 11, 2004

i disagree also last week jessica got a $250.00 per month raise  first thing she told me was go buy a boat i no you miss yours not to start a fight with her i did and just got back from the lake

[Ray]

... in response to Re: I Disagree as well, posted by nealt on Jun 13, 2004

...on the new boat Tom.

I hope you brought her some fish! :-)

Ray

[Howard]

... in response to I completely agree, posted by Bear on Jun 9, 2004

B~

How's everything big fella?

As always, you make a good point about Filipinas being more old school and preferring their men make many of the "Head of Household" Decisions.  As most of us know, our quiet, demure Asawas will quickly let us know when they don't agree with our decisions  Hahahahaahahahahahaaa

Give my love to Honey and the Cub

Keep the Faith

H

[Bear]

... in response to You always call me a wimp!  LOL, posted by Howard on Jun 9, 2004

then feel some satisfaction in yours only lasted 3 years where I had to be a wimp for 25 years before I could start again and find my life-mate.  I am just so amazed at the difference between now and then.  Although I truely don't remember much of the adversity then occasionally I compare the frustration of life then and to the successes now and I can help but to put it all on having a loving, caring, supportive wife.

Honey said Hi! and Bear Cub ignored me?