Can't retrieve passport.

[JJ27]

Hi again,

Okay.. someone else used by fiance's identity to travel
overseas in the late 1990's, but she has no idea who or
how they had gotten the documents. She told me that it
happens where people that are too young or too old will
assume someone's identity in order to get work overseas.
With that said, she was still issued a passport later
so that she could work overseas without knowing this.

With that said, We've figured out exactly what the current
problem is. She couldn't find her passport, but we have
found out that it was left at the agency that she was
working through. She worked overseas for 6 months before
we met, and she has 2 1/2 years left on the contract.
Her agency is holding her passport, and won't give
it back to her, because she hasn't completed the contract.

I would assume that it is against the law to hold someone's
passport hostage, but I don't know how things work there. I
do know that the legal process is long and stressful though.

She doesn't want to go back there, and I don't want her to.
We need to get the passport, and I'd like to end the contract
with them in one way or another, but I'm not sure exactly how
to go about it. A relative paid 50,000 pesos to the agency
for her job, but I'm guessing with a contract.. they get a
percentage of her income every month. She has contacted the
manager of the agency and he doesn't seem willing to give
her the passport. What does an agency in the Philippines
typically make off of a worker over a 2 1/2 year period?

We need to get her passport so that we can get things
resolved with the government with regard to the person
that was using her identity before, as soon as possible.

What would you recommend that we do in this type of situation.
Any feedback or guidance on this matter would be appreciated.

[nealt]

... in response to Can't retrieve passport., posted by JJ27 on Mar 14, 2004

if they kept her passport how did she get back home

[Ray]

... in response to Can't retrieve passport., posted by JJ27 on Mar 14, 2004

JJ,

You should have been told about all of this a long time ago. When the folks at the embassy ask for her old passport during her interview, and they almost certainly will, this story just isn’t going to fly IMHO. Without her previous passport(s), there are going to be some big red flags and her chances for denial will be greatly increased. The only thing that will get her through her interview is going to be the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

This is just my opinion, but from the information you have provided so far, I don’t think that you know the REAL story and it sounds like you probably never will. If somebody is using her passport, then she ‘probably’ gave it to them and she ‘probably’ knows exactly who it is.

If you are willing to take the big gamble with all of this, then it looks as if you are going to have to start throwing a LOT of money at the situation and hope for the best. Whatever you do, I would try to keep everything legal and legit. Are you willing to pay the price in time and money and turn this whole thing over to a Filipino attorney?

I can really sympathize with your dilemma and I do wish you luck!

Ray

[JJ27]

... in response to Re: Can't retrieve passport., posted by Ray on Mar 14, 2004


I had a feeling that I'd get this type of response, and
I should have just dealt with this situation on my own.

I'm going to get her previous passport from the agency,
even if I have to pay off the contract right now. We
will have her previous passport, then we can go to the
passport agency and get this matter cleared up about the
stolen identity. We can then provide the embassy with proof
that this was the issue. I mean.. c'mon, it happens all of
the time over here, what makes it any different there.
Things happen that we all can't always control.

I don't like to be insulted this way in a message board.
I understand the situation fully, and I'm trying to figure
out the best way to handle it. This is my fiance, I'm not
going to just say.. oh well, and give up.. I'm a real man,
and I love this woman, and I know her true feelings for me.
Even though, their is a mess of a situation, I'm not going
to give up on it.. I'm going to do whatever it will take.

[shadow]

... in response to Re: Re: Can't retrieve passport., posted by JJ27 on Mar 14, 2004

Ray was not rying to insult you, he was trying to tell you the cold hard truth.

Many thousands of filipinas every year travel overseas to work,... under someone elses name. Most always they are related, and do so with full knowledge and permission of the 'real' person. This 'real person' later will go on to deny all knowledge of this at a later date.

On the other hand, the embassy knows this. This is part of filipino culture. If a person was honest and up front with them and told them the entire situation, as well as provide proof of such, they may tend to overlook certain aspects of legality.

On the other hand, if you try to hide the facts from them and they find out, they WILL most likely deny.

Just curious, how many other 'red flags' can you count?

Larry.

[Ray]

... in response to Re: Re: Can't retrieve passport., posted by JJ27 on Mar 14, 2004

O.K., I have some more info for you. My wife worked overseas in Malaysia for 4 years, both as a nanny and an office clerk for an overseas recruiting company. Then she managed the recruiting company’s Manila office for 2 years after returning to the Phils, so this is first-hand information on how at least one of the typical OCW agencies worked. According to her, most of the other agencies work about the same, but I know there are a few ladies who post here who can give their personal experiences with OCW agencies.

First, the applicant NEVER paid for the service in advance, so I don’t know how the P50,000 fee figures in with your case. The applicant would typically pay for most of their own documentation fees, including passport, NBI clearance, Dept of Employment certificate, etc.  The agency would then pay for the visa and plane fare to the foreign country.

The employee would sign a contract with the recruiting company, typically for a period of 3 years. The contract would obligate the employee for a fixed amount, typically about P20,000 (about 10-15 years ago). That P50,000 you mentioned could very well be a typical contract obligation in today’s economy.

While the OCW was working overseas, the employer would pay a set amount to the employee with an additional percentage of the salary paid directly to the recruiting company. The recruiting company would keep books for every worker, subtracting the monthly percentage from the employer from the worker’s outstanding contract balance. Many employees would pay additional amounts to the agency on monthly basis in order to pay off their obligation early. When the contract obligation was paid off, then the entire monthly salary would then be paid directly to the employee and the employee was usually free to come and go as they wished. The employee could extend their contract after the end of the initial 3-year period through mutual agreement with the employer, but the employee would not have any more financial obligation to the agency during the extension period.

The recruiting agency’s overseas office would normally hold the employee’s passport until the contract had been paid off, but not always. If the employee quit work before the contract had been paid in full, the agency would often require payment of the balance before returning the passport. The agency would also assist the employee in finding work with another employer if the employee or employer had complaints that couldn’t be resolved. In some cases, the employee would be allowed to terminate employment early and the agency would eat the contract balance.

I’m not sure what fees the overseas employer paid to the agency up front, if any. Return transportation to the Phils would be paid by the agency after the contract was completed. Annual vacations of approx. 2 weeks, including round-trip transportation, would usually be covered by the employer and not the agency.

I hope this info helped you out with your problem…

Ray

[Ray]

... in response to Re: Re: Can't retrieve passport., posted by JJ27 on Mar 14, 2004

No insults were intended, so I apologize if it came across that way.

I was putting myself in the place of a consular officer conducting a visa interview at the embassy. If I heard the story the way you told it, I would be very suspicious. First the passport couldn’t be found. Then it was suddenly found out that the passport was being held hostage by an overseas recruiting agency. But the passport can’t be retrieved from the agency(?). That’s almost the same thing as telling them that the agency really doesn’t have it. Then someone else is supposedly using another passport with the same name and identity(?). Too many red flags and too many differing stories.

Why would it be any different over there? Because the folks doing the interviews at the embassy in Manila get an awful lot of fake documents and falsified applications. For example, they get hundreds of women who claim to have never been married, but somehow a marriage index check at the NSO turns up a copy of her marriage contract. Of course it was a fake and someone else used her identity to get married(?). I don’t think the embassy will easily buy the identity theft story because they have heard it too many times before when it was later proven to be false.

The first thing that my wife was asked for at her interview was her expired passport. Why? Because they want to see where and when she has traveled overseas. They want to verify that the entry and exit stamps in her passport agree with the biographic data provided on her visa application. A missing passport will automatically raise suspicions. Is the applicant trying to hide something? The consular officers doing the interviews are very serious and usually very suspicious and for a good reason. There is simply a lot of visa fraud going on in Manila. That’s why I suggested that the whole thing be resolved before a visa application is sworn to and submitted at the embassy. The visa interview will start with an oath to tell the truth and confirm that all information submitted is truthful. They will very possibly be asking a lot of tough questions so it’s always good to be prepared for the worse. The original story can’t be changed after the oath or there will be a big chance that the visa will be denied and a permanent ban placed on the applicant because of perjury. My intention was to save you or anyone else reading out there from that kind of a let-down.

That’s why you better take this stuff very seriously. If there is likely to be anything suspicious brought up at the visa interview, just make damn sure that it is the correct story and the evidence backs it up. That’s all I’m saying. As long as she can look straight into the eyes of the embassy interviewer or the immigration agent at the POE and swear that the story is true, then she will probably be O.K. But I just want to make sure that you know that these guys are pros and are not easily fooled.

I agree with your decision to do whatever it takes to get the passport back and I am glad that you are not about to give up. I didn’t expect you to. Just be careful. Get a copy of that contract and also a copy of the previous passport and all the documents that will be submitted at the interview. Having a lawyer write a letter may be all it takes to retrieve that ‘missing’ passport.

Again, no insults were intended. I wish you luck.

Peace,

Ray

[HaroldC]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Can't retrieve passport., posted by Ray on Mar 14, 2004

Now you've got me worried, Ray.

My wife renewed her (unexpired, until 2005) passport with her married name through a travel agent and, supposedly, the agent had to surrender the old one to DFA. I just asked, and she has no documentation of this. Is she going to need it?

Two things strike me. Why would DFA have let your wife keep her expired passport- seems like that would have had the potential to end up on the black market? And, secondly, how would the Embassy know she had had a previous passport.

Thanks, guy.

[Ray]

... in response to Oh, oh., posted by HaroldC on Mar 14, 2004

Good questions Harold. I had to dig out my wife’s passports and check on some stuff. She is on her 4th passport. The first one was stolen in Malaysia and she had it replaced at the Phil Consulate. She still has all of the other 3.

When she got the replacement for the 1st one in Kuala Lumpur, they made an entry in #2 stating that old Passport No. xxxxxxx (#1) was lost.

When passport #2 expired, she got a renewal at DFA in Manila. They made an entry in the back cover of passport #3 stating that Passport No xxxxxxx (#2) was canceled.

After we got married, she went to DFA Manila to have her name changed to her married name. Passport #3 had two years remaining on it, so they canceled it and issued #4 in her married name. They made an entry in the back cover  of passport #4 stating that Passport No xxxxxxxx (#3) was canceled.

The 2 canceled passports that she has both have large triangular pieces cut out with a pair of scissors from either the ID page or the cover, indicating that it is no longer valid for use. By making a notation in the new passport that the previous one (identified by serial #) had been cancelled, anyone looking at her current valid passport will know that she has had at least one previous passport.

As far as I can tell from talking to others, DFA ALWAYS lets you keep your old passport when you have it renewed or replaced. That is your single accurate record of your previous overseas travel. In my wife’s case, they stapled the old canceled passport to the new one when she picked it up at DFA. Apparently, someone messed up when your wife didn’t get her old passport back. I think she should jump on the travel agent pronto. If the travel agent doesn’t have her old passport, I would at least try to get an official letter from the agent attesting to fact that they lost it.

I think the embassy will almost assuredly ask for the previous passport at the interview. They really want to know where you have been and when you came and went. I think I remember reading that Richard Reid, AKA The Shoe Bomber, had replaced his passport at an overseas British Embassy by claiming it had been lost or stolen. That way, when he boarded the plane in Paris, he didn’t have to show the passport with all the Pakistan/Afghanistan arrival and departure stamps in it, which would have automatically raised the red flags.

Ray

[HaroldC]

... in response to Re: Oh, oh., posted by Ray on Mar 15, 2004

What happened to us was-

My wife paid a Travel Agent (P350 or P500, I forget) to renew her passport with her married name so she wouldn't have to get to DFA at dawn and stand in line all day- travel agents, and lawyers, are authorized to do this in the RP (they can extend your visa, too).

She had to give him her CFO attendance cert and her old passport. It took two weeks. When she got her new passport, he said he had 'surrendered' her old one to DFA- which made sense. I could see why they would not want old, especially unexpired, passports floating around.

However, I just happened to notice RAy mention that the Embassy interviewer asked to see his wife's old passport. I freaked, checked the DFA WWW site- which says 'present' old passport and 'submit' photocopies.

So, my wife went to DFA to get her old passport. They told her they do not take the old passports. She confronted the agent and he remembered that he had forgotten to give it to her and she got it back.

I think that slimeball was going to wait until she left the country and then sell it on the black market. So, beware.

[senior citizen]

... in response to Re: Oh, oh., posted by Ray on Mar 15, 2004

Another thing, Ray. After 9/11 the overseas embassy employees were supposedly issued instructions to flag all persons that had been to Islamic nations for more than just a short spell for a holiday. Filipina OCW in Indonesia and Saudi Arabia, etc., would be flagged for extra scrutiny. If she has a missing passport they are supposed to treat her as if she had been in a Moslem country unless she could prove otherwise. Doesn't mean she will be refused if she has been to a Moslem nation, but she will have extra scrutiny. At least so my cousin who worked in the embassy in Spain told me.

[Ray]

... in response to Re: Re: Oh, oh., posted by senior citizen on Mar 16, 2004

Hi Señor Citizen,

That makes sense. We have a member here who had a fiancée who had previously worked in Libya as a nurse. I think it took them nearly 2 years to get the visa approved because of a new requirement for a police clearance from Libya.

There were even reports floating around that Osama Bin Laden had a wife in the Philippines(?)

Ray