Gold-diggers?

[Bear]

I have read many of the posts about "gold-diggers" and thought I might toss in my opinions.

I do not see Filipinas who seek to improve life for themselves and their families as "gold-diggers".  I find it very honorable that they care so much about those who have such great needs and have been there for her in the past.

I do fault them for seeing American men as a tool or method to end their familes sufferings because it causes suffering of the individual whose efforts made it possible.  How they can claim to love but not see further than their own needs and how much hurt it causes nauseates me.

But then how different is the indifference that American men give to the suffering of the Filipinas' families?  Not see how much and how important the "family ties" are to these women.  Isn't that what we really desire?  Strong family ties?  And to not recognize it and use it and become part of it just amazes me.

In a book I read once about the civil war, a man asked the courter of his daughter, who was asking for his permission to marry her, if he loved his daughter.  He responded, "I do not know?  I like her."  Her father responded that any other answer might have gotten a firm "no" but the honesty of such truth was good.  And that "loves grows by what you give".  How can so many good things be done and yet so much hate come from it.  The man looks for love and finds it but doesn't honor it.  The woman has love come to help her show love and ignores it.  Family allows love and sacrifice to help them and loses it.  And all return to where they were much worse off for the love they gave.
Very ironic.

I think if we American men go into this knowing that their is great need and understanding our part in it and making sure that the Filipina knows our part and desire in it then we will be better off.  But if you go into it seeking your own need and ignoring what the Filipinas' motivation is then you are asking for it.  I want to help my wifes family so that she can be happier and more content.  And she sees that I love her that much to accept such a burden for her.

A lot of you guys out there do not use the tools available to you or bother to understand the people you try to mate with.  Why hunt and take chances on "finding" someone- especially with so many "desparate" Filipinas out there.  The best way is through introduction.  Mag-anak has hundreds of available Filipinas you can meet through introduction.  Pictures online.  All motivated by the success of a friend or family already here.  Every guy here probably knows 2 or 3 Filipinas he can introduce you to.  Why take not simplify the effort and look there and here?

The last and most important thing is how can such a decision as getting married under such increditable circumstances be done without "prayer".  I made my choice and asked Heavenly Father if it was correct.  Both Marissa and I knew it was because Heavenly Father confirmed it to us.  Try it and I think you'll find it a worthwhile effort.

Bear

[Carl]

... in response to Gold-diggers?, posted by Bear on Mar 17, 2001

n/t

[Pinzmog]

... in response to Gold-diggers?, posted by Bear on Mar 17, 2001

Amen on the Prayer part Bear.......It's the only way I was able to make my decision to become Engaged last year.  We still continue to have problems and misunderstandings (small) from time to time, but we know we are doing the right thing with God's continual guidance.

take care,

[kevin]

... in response to Gold-diggers?, posted by Bear on Mar 17, 2001

These past few days have been nerve-wracking, anxiety provoking, and sobering to me.  Reading all these posts   Thinking that the path to love is like walking into a land mine.

I had my first real on-line chat with Analyn tonight.  I was happy and sad.  I felt the issue of true intentions had to be addressed.  It wasn't easy.  Inevitably, it hurt the both of us.  I hope and pray that we can both understand each other and grow from there.  At the moment, things seem shaky, and it's goin to be difficult to sleep.  We plan on another communication Tuesday night.

In spite of all this, the more I get to know Analyn, the more I think I found a true gem.  Everything has a beginning.  Love and friendship have to grow.  It has to be established.  Even in the best of relationships there are trying times.  Bear, I'm sure you can vouch for that.

I feel sad now because of what I said.  More than anything, I hope and pray that we can both understand each other, put this issue behind us, and perhaps, this is just a growing pain.

The gold-digging issue is a very pervasive issue.  My "conversation" with Analyn reinforced it.  I have sent Analyn some money.  It wasn't alot, but I'm not going to say how much because it's nobody else's business.  I sent money for internet expenses and minor things.

Well, Analyn showed my letters to a friend.  The friend's reaction was that I was a "thrifty" Kano.  A statement like that, I think, reflects overall attitudes and expectations about Americans.  I try to do a good, little thing for someone I care about, then in effect, somebody else steps in and slaps me in the face.  But I'm sure that I was being measured against the Pinay that receives sums of money in terms of hundreds of dollars per monthg from a Kano boyfriend.  I could never measure up to such a standard, and if I could, I don't think I would do it.  I've been conditioned to believe that true love can not be bought or sold.

- Kevin

[Cecil]

... in response to To all . . ., posted by kevin on Mar 18, 2001

Dear Kevin,

I had a similar situation happen to me.  I sent a lady $15 for a little party for her sister.  I make a point of not sending any significant amount of money.  The lady wrote back and said "Did you really only send $15?".  My attitude was that no one is sending me $15 gifts in the mail.  I did not comment on it with her but her reaction truly hurt me.   I think Kevin you did the right thing by being clear how much money you are willing to send so in the future there won't be any further misunderstandings.  I think that Tneal gave the best answer to the issue of sending money.  He said that almost everyone in the Phils is desparately poor and they all need money for legitimate reasons.  Once you start sending large sums of money there is no end.  If you were dating a local woman and something went wrong you could drive over to her house and resolve it.  Those 11000 mile drives are killers.  I think that Ray had some good advice when he said that with AW's you let them cool off after a disagreement before you make up but with the filipina it is best to try to find out the problem and deal with it before she has a time to get upset.  The key Kevin is that you were honest with her.  Best of wishes to you lovebirds!

Cecil

[outwest]

... in response to To all . . ., posted by kevin on Mar 18, 2001

Well not exactly the same, but my net gf in manila,
asked for money after she was robbed, she did not ask
for specific amount, but to me she must not have been
that broke since she got online the next night, and said
she would replace her cell phone the next week or so she
thought.
Anyway, first I said no, then i could not chat with her
that night on chat, or she was acting strange, and she
did not email me either, so i accused her of asking for
the money, and caring only about that, and not me.
Three days of tears later, i called her, she was crying,
etc, i calmed her down, she said, she was not like that,
what i had said before, and that she really cared, blah blah,
    Well it turns out the whole time she was having a daily
conversation with a guy in chicago, she had asked him for
money the day she was robbed too, and he liked her, etc
dont know if he sent her money or not, but, the fact that
she was sneaking behind my back the whole time talking to him just really burned me up. Anyway, supposedly now she
is engaged to him, sight unseen for april......give me a break.
     As for your gf, I would not worry about the money
being compared to other Kanos, if she does not like the
amount, etc, too bad, I would keep the amount very very
minimal, But, I would not bring, it up too much, since
its such a sensitive issue, But, to me the mere fact of sending any more than 20 bucks or so, being that you have
not met, would be a bad thing,....Now if she was your fiancee, and she has expenses for paperwork, or if you demanded she quit work etc, that would be a different story.
but according to you, you have not met yet, so be very careful, thats all i can say.

[Carl]

... in response to To all . . ., posted by kevin on Mar 18, 2001

Hi Kevin
Just keep in mind, there is much misunderstanding between
us and the Filipina in our english. I have encountered a lot of it. Just take time, not judge too quickly.
God Bless
Carl

[Bear]

... in response to To all . . ., posted by kevin on Mar 18, 2001

I can remember days when I had to tell Honey things that made her cry.  I thought it kill me that I had to be so honest that I hurt her with the truth - but I promised to never lie or withhold anything.  It is the best way.  If you got something to say or need to understand then it has to be resolved and really should be brought to a complete understanding.

I have to admit that Marissa and I argue alot though.  See I told her that I was the happiest, luckiest and most blessed man in the world to have her.  She said that she was the most happiest, luckiest and most bleesed not me.  I told her that "See if you feel that way then surely I am".  No, she diagreed that because I felt that way then she is.  I do not think we'll ever stop arguing!!!  She just can't see that its really me that is the happiest , luckiest and most blessed!!!!

Bear

[Dave H]

... in response to Re: To all . . ., posted by Bear on Mar 18, 2001

N/T

[kevin]

... in response to Re: To all . . ., posted by Bear on Mar 18, 2001

really does happen, it sure seems to good to be true.  But when it DOES happen, it's, I guess, by the grace of God, and truly the most beatiful thing that not one, but two, human beings can experience.

- Kevin

[Timee]

... in response to To all . . ., posted by kevin on Mar 18, 2001

You already have your answer.

What does her friend have to do with you?  and why was it important in your limited amount of time that she convey the thought that you are cheap?  

Why are you struggling?  Are you trying to convence yourself of something that a clear mind would normaly rule out.  

My views are that she does not have any consideration for your feelings.  She never should have mentioned what a friend said.  You will always be dealing with some friend dictating your actions or lack of action.

The woman that is ment for you is out there.  Keep looking.  The devil knows exactly what you like.  I don't think enough people give the devil credit or even notice.

I don't mean to be negative in many of my post.  I just see so many men with the flawed expectation that you both are looking for love. This is not necessarly true. I have travled to many areas of the world and somehow always get a chance to meet and see the real people.  I take the world on with understand and acceptance of the diffrent cultures and beliefs.  I just find flawed belief structures in the Phillipines, Costa Rica and Brazil all diffrent and each I would avoid in seeking a wife for diffrent reasons.  Just remeber God's Promise that a woman exist for you.  Also rember that the devil has free reign to set obsticals in your way.  Temptation is a gift from God in that it allows us to live out in our minds an act that would have sever consequences and take the actions to avoid the projected outcome.  If there is no pain then it is not real.

Understand that there are over 6.6 billion people on this planet.  Over half of the worlds population is under age 24 and there are over 700 million more women then men.  The numbers are in your favor, pick another.  Only we in the United States do not understand these numbers.  

The mindset of many Amercan 24 year old women is the thought of marring a man 40 to 50 is gross.  Many Amercan 24 year old women vomit at the thought of marring an older man.  Only the Americans woman sees the age diffrence as a flaw.  Now replace the despise that younger American women have for older men with "love is not necessary for marriage" and you have my concerns about the Philippines.  In my mind "love" being optional in marriage is a very big flaw and a common mindset.

My thoughts on the Philippines are that you must go there.  Everthing is so totaly diffrent.  I was invieted to a birthday party in Manila where I was served a good portion of food.  I threw up in the middle of the meal. This was rude and I apoligized.  After sampling 3 diffrent items on my plate and everthing being totaly diffrent than expected,  I went to the potato.  My eyes, nose, and texture told me it was a potato, it was not.  The body did what it was designed to do, protect me by throwing up.  If something is telling you she is a gold digger, define "something" as your spirit, which is placing doubt to protect you, the host.  

Good luck,  I'll say a prayer for you.

[kevin]

... in response to Re: To all . . . No One Likes What I Hav..., posted by Timee on Mar 18, 2001

Timee,

I agree I don't like what you have to say.

But remember, thw world isn't all black-and-white.  There are all shades of gray in between.

For your information, I have been to the Philippines once.  I must at least say that my stay in the Philippines was a pleasant one.  I'd go there again for the right person.  I'd want Philippine trips to be part of my lifestyle for the rest of my life, shall I have a true Pinay life partner someday.

Can you account for the Fil-Am marriages that HAVE BEEN GOOD?  Those that HAVE BEEN BASED ON LOVE?  Such marriages exist too.  That's what I want and need.  And I speak for most of us guys that come to this board too.

I'd like to say this.  After my divorce, I've become better friends with some Pinays here in the states.  The ones that are my friends have given me moral support, and are just as wary for my sake, as my non-Pinay friends.  

I'm attracted to Pinay women.  Other men are attracted to women with blue eyes and blond hair.  I don't think there's much difference as to the reasons why men and women have their individual preferences.

It's been drilled to me before to find a white woman in the United States to be on the safe side.  First of all, my preferences are to southeast Asian women (I find Vietnamese, Cambodian and some Chinese attractive too; I think I could have a better communication basis with a Filipina).  It's also been suggested that if I really like foreign women, to find someone from western Europe.

A point I'd like to make is that if and when I marry again someday, it will be for love.  I'd rather be independent than be trapped in a loveless marriage, whether it be loveless on my part or loveless on her part.

If I were to cave in to social pressure, I might settle for a Caucasian woman.  But I've done soul searching on this matter.  Such a woman might truly love me from her heart.  But it would not be fair to her.  Consider this.  I'm married to somebody whom really isn't what I want.  She strives her best to please me, make me happy, and promote harmony in our lives.  Yet I see happy Pinoy-Pinay couples and happy Kano-Pinay couples.  I feel something inside is missing but I can't say it to my wife.  In turn, I'm constantly crabby, irritable, and always say "I need my space".  She's hurt and can't understand why I'm acting the way I am.  It's a symptom of a love-less marriage.

Now the paradox.  At first my ex professed her love for me.  It seemed that the sun rose and set around me.  In the end, she was always crabby and irritable.  Now matter how much I tried, I couldn't please her.  The day she told me that she wanted a divorce, she told me, "There was just something always missing in the marriage.  Something called passion.  It's hard to tell you this."

The man she was having an affair with was divorced.  He also didn't marry for love.  He married when he was 24 years old because all of his friends were getting married.  He wasn't happily married, felt trapped, described his ex-wife as a "nag", and described her as fat and ugly.  The moral support he gave to my ex was to divorce me for the same reason he divorced his ex-wife.

To look at it another way, take the example of the gay that gets married to a female.  The social pressure is on him to be heterosexual.  He marries.  He doesn't really love his wife.  His wife loves him.  During the course of the marriage, he's a Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde.  Down the road, his wife is devastated to find out that he's gay.  Another marriage built on something other than love (in this scenario, social pressure).

In spite of all these posts about gold-digging and the Philippines, and the prejudice and fears that are spawned from collective bad experiences, there have been some Pinays that have added balance to these strings.

I'd like to commend May.  May, I hope that you will always feel free and welcome to post on this board.  We need more folks like you for moral support. I think May brought up some good points about prejudice.  I think Carrisse has too.  Put yourself in their shoes.  Would you like to be judged as having bad character because of your race or ethnic origin?  Nobody chooses their race or ethnic origin.  

In perspective, the Pinay that truely loves a Kano also faces anxiety and social obstacles.  Both in the Philippines and in the United States.  In the Philippines, other Pinoys will look down on her for "taking the easy road out of poverty".  Or she'll be seen with a white man and be called a "cheap" girl.  In the United States, many will be prejudiced against her.  It's almost a given that alot of folks in her mahal's circle will have an embedded belief that her mission is to hurt him for personal gain.  Think of the anxiety a woman with good intentions has to grapple with.

Another thing to ponder.  I know a Pinay lady at my place of employment. She's a wonderful person. She's married to a Pinoy.  They both came to the United States the conventional way (I guess the lottery) years ago.  They struggled together to make a life in America.  Even now, given the family size and other obstacles that come up in life, they are struggling financially.  Contrast this to the Pinay that marries a Kano citizen who is already established here in the United States.  She automatically has a relatively comfortable standard of living compared to her kaibigan married to a Pinoy, that immigrate together to the U.S.A.  Yet the Pinay that married a Kano quickly becomes resentful once she realizes that the Kano husband has to live within budgetary constraints in order to live harmoniously.  The moral to this story is "marriage-based-on-love" versus "marriage-based-on-other-than-love".

This woman I just mentioned in the above paragraph is my friend and is willing to help me find a Pinay partner.  She got to first know my ex, and then me, after the divorce.  She's told me to be careful, but there are some good women to be found in the Philippines.  Just as you talk about the hazards of this route to love, she's understanding of these kinds of problems too.  She tells me to be careful because she doesn't want to see me get hurt again.

As a Pinay who came to the United States the so-called conventional way, she deserves another kind of credit, that I admire her for.  She has made many "mail-order-bride" friends.  Some good, some bad.  Yet she doesn't look down on fellow Pinays in the United States that are married to non-Pinoys.

In the case of my ex-girlfriend (a Pinay) I met in the United States, so many in her extended family were automatically prejudiced against me.  Bad things would be said about me because I didn't shower her with expensive gifts (which I couldn't afford to do anyway).  Bad things were said about me because I was a divorced man, and more specifically because I was divorced to a Filipina. I was too low-class for that circle.  These same people regarded Pinays that married Kanos, who otherwise might not be in the United States, as collectively low-class.

Inevitably, a Kano that marries a Pinay with good intentions (two-way love), will face evil forces regarding the future of the marriage.  American media influence COULD BE one thing (TV, movies, advertisements, etc.).  It depends on her maturity level.  The other force will be circles of Pinays in her geographic area.  Some of the things that are encouraged and promoted are downright despicable.  Pinays that have stayed married to their Kanos have told me this.  Typical comments, "Oh! Divorce him.  He's not guapo.  This is America.  You can find somebody much better looking.  Find somebody with alot more money who will treat you better!"  Then they bait each other on strategies on how to screw their Kano husbands who sacrifed to bring and assimilate them in this country.  Such tactics include to stage a claim of abuse, or to anger the guy (try his patience, his civility) to document that he was the one in the wrong (such as a tape recording of yelling to be played in the courtroom).

One Pinay friend told me that if she heeded everything her coworkers encouraged (both Pinays and Kanas, typically divorced ladies), she would have been divorced long ago.  Early in the marriage there were serious problems regarding the elements of trust and apprpriate assimilation to life in America.  Guys in the workplace were making moves on her as well as my ex-wife.  The husband was once ready to wait out in the parking lot at her place of work to beat the living crap out of the guy trying to make a move on her.

Well, that lady describes her husband as her best friend.  They worked through these problems together.  Trust was demonstrated.  She once told me that if you treat a Filipina (profile) with love, honor and respect, that the Filipina (profile) can be very loyal, loving and affectionate.  That is what I am seeking to be my life partner.  I'm 35 years old, still young enough to start a family shall true love be realized someday, and I haven't given up hope.

Yours truly,

Kevin

[MAY]

... in response to Re: Re: To all . . . No One Likes What I..., posted by kevin on Mar 18, 2001

Never give up hope, Kevin.....I still don't.  Sometimes, it's harder for us, raised with very strict values and
conventions...believing from childhood in fairy tales and the "they lived happily ever after".

If we have to believe in something, we might as well believe in LOVE.

[MAY]

... in response to To all . . ., posted by kevin on Mar 18, 2001

No matter how much it hurts,  you have the truth right in your hands and in what you have always believed in....and that is...TRUE LOVE  can not be bought or sold.

Maybe, that is why God gave us our conscience so that when we are blinded by things and emotions...it will always be there to remind us what HE has made real.

God Bless.

[Timee]

... in response to Gold-diggers?, posted by Bear on Mar 17, 2001

I think you are misunderstanding what some of the guys are saying.  I do not know of any man who does not know that part of the deal is helping the family back home.

There is nothing wrong with any woman wanting to improve their live.  The problem is when a woman improves her life at your expence.  There is no "together" theme in many of these womens agenda.  You do not see the true face of the woman.

Many Philippino's do not just want to imporove their lives, it is almost as if they want to punish you.  Turn your freinds against you.  Bring confusion into your life.  How can you tell when a woman is lying to you when she tells you that she loves you?  My problem is that lies are being told when it is totaly unnecessary.

Many people do not understand that there is a long deep rooted hatred for Americans due to our presence in their country.  The U.S. military brought men into their country who would have sex with the girls and leave them. Many promises made and not kept.  In Hong Kong and around Asia, Angle Island in the Philippines was nicknamed "Fantacy Island" because you could have sex with a woman for a week for a chicken .25 cents.

For some women,  not all, "hook or crook" is the mind set.  There are good women out there,  I am just telling you men to be careful.