Women of other Asian countries (LONG)

[NK]

I've often wondered if the term "Asian board" is a misnomer as far as this board is concerned, since all of you here seem to be involved with Filipinas exclusively. OK…yeah that *did* come out sounding a little more facetious than I had intended. But posting an "icebreaker" post like this one is always kind of awkward for me so bear with me while I explain :0)...

I realize I'm unknown to most of you, but I've been a regular visitor to planet-love for nearly four years now, though during that time I posted mostly over on the Russian board because that was where my interests were originally. But even there my posts became fewer and fewer down to none within the last three months, and all basically because I had found love in my own backyard. It lasted about a year and a half until we went our separate ways last November. The reasons were complex and many but make no mistake: I assume my fair share of the blame for things not working out. And I have no regrets about our relationship and I like to think she feels the same way. She was also, incidentally second generation Chinese-Canadian, which isn't totally without relevance in what has influenced my most recent decision…I think you can see where I'm going with this:

I will be ready to start searching/corresponding very soon, this time with an emphasis on those "other" Asian women that don't seem to get discussed to much around here, but I'm hoping there's someone who can at least point me in the right direction, if nothing else. Personally, Filipinas just don't interest me for a couple of reasons, not the least of which is that they are mostly Catholic, a faith which I too was raised in untill I stopped practicing in my teens, and have not resumed since nor do I want to. And I have no wish to be involved with a woman who would in all likelihood make a huge issue over my choice, since most women in the Philippines still actively practice their faith. And as you may have already guessed, Russian/Ukranian women no longer interest me either: No way, Jose -- I've heard far too many horror stories about frauds, scams, cheats, and all other manner of deception and dishonesty (from all sides) regarding these marriages and the lives they messed up. Of course I don't mean to imply that these things don't happen with Asian (or Latin) women, but there's no denying they seem to happen far more frequently with RW/UW-FM couples.

So my interests and efforts are now going to be directed toward Asians specifically Chinese (all ethnic groups), Japanese and Koreans interest me the most, (well actually I've pretty much ruled out Korean women for reasons I'll explain in a bit more detail below). And for me the timing couldn't be more ideal. Currently I work as an events manager/organizer at a private club and I've worked there for over two years now. But now the club has come under new management -- or mismanagement would really be a better way of putting it and things are going downhill rapidly there and I don't enjoy it and I think the time has come for me to move on to something new. And since I have a degree, some previous teaching experience, which I liked even more and a lot of public speaking experience I am very seriously considering teaching ESL abroad and as luck would have it the biggest opportunities right now seem to be in Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. A friend of mine has just returned from two years of teaching in Taiwan and can't stop talking about how great the experience was and has given me nothing but encouragement and a "go for it" type of attitude once I told him I was interested as well. Meanwhile for now I'm still at my current job and I have sufficient savings set aside from that plus the supplementary income I earn from tutoring. My question for those of you who might know is where my best chances are, both in terms of teaching opportunities and the availability of women in each of these countries. But I have to say at this point I have pretty much ruled out South Korea and Korean women based upon everything I've read and heard from my research thus far which basically can be summed up in the following reasons: Koreans are VERY different from Asians of other nationalities, largely due to their unique history. Though you would think their experience at the hands of the Japanese would make them more tolerant, my understanding is that they can be quite openly hostile and xenophobic in the way they treat foreigners. And not surprisingly then the opportunities for foreign men to meet Korean women are limited because of this and when it does happen, Korean men on the whole don't seem to like it one bit. And family disapproval of these unions seem to be more prevalent in Korea than in other Asian cultures. In addition, from what I can discern young Korean women show a tendency towards the kind of materialism/consumerism, which for a lot of us was exactly what made us look for women overseas in the first place. As far as teaching and living there is concerned: I have heard of foreigners being ripped off and taken advantage of right left and center, even more so than in Taiwan, PRC or Japan. And of course there also seems to be a lot of dishonesty and incompetence among the administration of Korean schools which can make teaching there all the more difficult. In general, Korea by all accounts seems to me like a rougher and less friendly country and if that's the case I'd think twice about living there. All of the above are generalizations, I admit I'm painting with very broad brush strokes here and I apologize if I insulted or offended anyone. But when I keep hearing the same things again and again from different sources, there must be some grain of truth to them otherwise why would they be so prevalent? But if you think I'm wrong, then by all means tell me so and tell me why because I'd love to be proven wrong.

So I've basically narrowed my target countries down to 2: Japan or Taiwan. (I don't know enough about teaching opportunities in PRC, Hong Kong or Singapore because I haven't heard much about them, so I'm guessing there aren't that many but again if I'm wrong please tell me.) But I will start corresponding with women and my plan is to use Asiafriendfinder for this purpose, since the other "Asian" agencies are really for the most part "Fillipina" agencies more than anything else. But again if anyone knows of other services I should be aware of…

OK I'm just about done now and if you've been patient enough to read this far my hat goes off to you. I hope someone here might be able to help me, even if it's pointing me elsewhere if I won't find the information here, or I'm wrong regarding all the above then please tell me that too. Though I'm sure letter writing/correspondence on its own can work very well when done properly as it has for many of you, I think we can agree that actually living in the country of choice does offer me many additional advantages such as meeting women in person and seeing them much more regularly and being better able to determine how well suited we are for each other and addition to increased opportunity to learn the local language (something else I plan to get a head start on before I go and the culture which I think can't but help your odds for success. But if nothing else, the teaching experience on its own is enough to make it worthwhile to me, and having at least some working  knowledge of the language and culture will serve me well even when I return home: something else I should have mentioned is that I currently live in Vancouver BC Canada which as you may already be aware, has a very visible and large Asian population, about 40-45% in the greater metropolitan area (ethnic Chinese, mostly) and knowledge of say, Mandarin, Cantonese or Japanese can not but be an advantage in such a city. Though I'm under no illusions that learning any of these will be easy by any means.

Thanks in advance and ANY advice, comments or questions would be most welcome, either here or to my email: niallkeane@excite.com

Niall

[Frank2002]

... in response to Women of other Asian countries (LONG), posted by NK on Jan 11, 2003

The problem with chasing women from China, korea etc is that it is much harder to get a woman from these countries. I taught in Korea, Japan and it was hard like Canada to get a date thier. In PI when I was thier, I could get a diffrent date every single day. I would not want to fly around the world to meet a Korean pen pal lady, coz it likely won't work out. Plus what are you gonna do thier then? almost nobody speaks english thier.

Must admit I am more attracted to korean ladies though. It is just to hard and or competitive to get one, plus the language barrier. All of this is not present with a filipina. why do you think so many on this board have chossen that path? I lived in korea and Japan and ended up chasing filipina's thier. in fact most of the women in other asian countries that take notice of me is ussually filipina's woking as over seas's workers in korea etc. I am not saying it is impossiable to marry a korean, just a hell of alot more effort than I would be willing to do.

[Tim]

... in response to Women of other Asian countries (LONG), posted by NK on Jan 11, 2003

I have a friend (American guy married to a HK Chinese) who moved to Hong Kong and taught English there for almost a year before moving on to a job in his field (mechanical engineering). I talked with him a few months ago about his teaching experiences there. He recommended that if a person was going to try to teach English overseas and did not have any teaching experience, they should get a TESL certificate (Teaching English as a Second Language). He didn't get one before moving to HK and really wished he had. If a person has one of these (or even higher teaching credentials), they can command a much higher salary and choice of working location. Here's a website where you can learn more about a TESL certificate:

http://www.teacher-training.net/index-o.html

(It looks like you can earn the degree through online courses, but I didn't investigate that site very deep.)

There are alot of jobs for English teachers in Hong Kong, and the lifestyle there is close to that of North America.

One last thing: I wouldn't rule out any nationality from your search based on the past stories you have heard and read. My advice is to keep an open mind about all Asian cultures.

Good luck,

Tim

[Bob S]

... in response to Women of other Asian countries (LONG), posted by NK on Jan 11, 2003

You are now where I was about a year and a half ago, though not as in deep doo-doo like I was.  I had just filed the papers to put an end to my dismal attempt with a too young and untrustworthy Russian girl and was refocusing my efforts to one of my other interests, Japan.  I enrolled at a Jr. College to take Japanese lessons and started serious research on available English schools (called: eikaiwa) in Japan to see which was the best.  Within 4 months, before the divorce was even final, I had an interview lined up.

Anyway, here are some links to begin your search.

A general information site is:
http://www.teachinginjapan.com/

From that, you will find that the Big Three are AEON, GEOS, and NOVA.  Berlitz is also huge around the world generally, and ECC is also one of the larger chains in Japan.

Another good site is Dave's ESL Cafe
http://www.eslcafe.com/

and also ELT News at
http://www.eltnews.com/home.shtml

AEON (the school I ended up at)
http://aeonet.com/
In my opinion, they provide the best support and all around situation for a new arrival to Japan, even if their pay is lower than other schools.  But you should read what the others offer too to see what is best for you.  At 35, I could not see myself living in the dorm situation with other fresh-out-of-college recruits at the other schools.  At least here I got my own apartment even if it is microscopic by American standards.

Let's Japan (for general information in a satirical format)
http://www.letsjapan.org/

If you are interested in the JET (Japan English Teacher) program sponsored by the government, here is an unofficial website for them.
http://www.bigdaikon.com/

JET teachers usually are fresh out of college with little or no real life experience.  They make more money than eikaiwa teachers but risk getting posted in dinky isolated bumf#ck towns far from civilization (not good places for meeting many nice single girls).

Eikaiwa and JET provide work visas before you go if you have a college education.  If you have the degree, it is possible to just show up and intreview at some smaller schools.  They will just send you out of the country for a while as they process your visa.

See:
http://thejapanfaq.cjb.net/

Just remember that for most of us, this is a sort of working vacation as we take time off from our real lives back in the English speaking world (which creates sort of a glut of available teachers and keeps the pay low for now).  There are those that emmigrate here permanently, but they are an odd sort typically.  You have to meet them to understand.  They are the reject fish-out-of-water types wherever they go, but like the sort of minor celebrity status Japan affords them (and the rest of us gaijin).

I understand what you are saying about S. Korea.  It has only had democracy and civil rights now for about 12 years.  Before that, it was under the brutal heel of military dictators or savage foreign oppressors for most of its history, and they are functionally an island with no real friendly neighbors.  It has created something of an untrusting seige mentality.  On the otherhand, the female American teacher at my school has dated Korean guys and found then to be slightly more bold and mature than Japanese guys.  So take that for what it's worth.

Taiwan is in a similar situation.  But it has the added problem of still having effectively a third world environmental situation which means tap water is not necessarily safe to drink and even food and utensils at restaurants may not be totally free of salmonella (sp?).  Japanese cuisine may not be as flavorful as Chinese cuisine, but in general you can trust to higher Japanese sanitaiton levels in restaurants and public facilities.

BTW, I have a friend who teaches English in Hong Kong at a university, but he had lots of experience and certification when he hired on.  If I had similar experience, I wouldn't mind working there also for a while.

[Nathan]

... in response to Women of other Asian countries (LONG), posted by NK on Jan 11, 2003


  Of course the Philippines may not be to your taste, but one of your primary reasons seems to be that you are no longer Catholic- well, if you had the chance to see for yourself, you would see that though the Philippines is largely Catholic by tradition, the vast majority are rather nominally Catholic at that. You say "..since most women in the Philippines still actively practice their faith."
For that to be so, you have to define "practice" rather liberally. Most families are in fact rather open to their daughters marriage outside the Cathoic church in my experience.

Nathan

[NK]

... in response to FYI, posted by Nathan on Jan 11, 2003

[This message has been edited by NK]

Sorry -- I deleted most of the orignal content of this message after a more careful reading of your message made me realize my own response was obsolete. (I gotta stop staying up so late!)

However another reason the PI doesn't interest me: English is already pretty widely spoken there, so I wouldn't imagine there are too many opportunities for living and teaching ESL there ;-) And I believe living in the country of one's interest still offers considerable advantage over correspondence alone.

I better go get some sleep now -- I'll respond to JR tommorow.

[Dave H]

... in response to FYI, posted by Nathan on Jan 11, 2003

Hi Nathan,

Most Catholic Filipinas seem to be very tolerant of their spouse's religion, as long as they are allowed to practice theirs. My wife and 3 of her sisters married men who were not Catholic. Her parents would have preferred it otherwise, but recognised our other qualities.

Dave H.

[juio99]

... in response to Women of other Asian countries (LONG), posted by NK on Jan 11, 2003

Nial, you will probably get a wide group of opinions on your post, and mine is likely to be at least one standard deviation away from the norm.

The first point is that you must remember the primary driving force for the women from the three major areas that men are investigating re this venture:  Eastern Europe, Latin America, and Asia.  That force is economic conditions in the homeland.  That doesn't mean men cannot find loving women there . . . it just means they are looking primarily because of economics.  I am sure you know all of this, but it is always worth repeating.

With that point in mind, I would say you have chosen a rough road to hoe by focusing on Japan and Taiwan because they are two of the most economically advanced areas in Asia and the economic force driving the women to look will not be very strong.  In fact, I would say the desire on the part of Japanese women will be about the lowest you could expect to find.  Yes, of course there are men here who have married Japanese women, but there are western men who have married someone from practically every country in the world.

Second, despite what you will hear from other men and those who are married to Japanese women and Taiwanese women, they are nothing like the women from those countries say 30-50 years ago.  Today, the women from Japan are much more like those from USA and Canada than they are like Filipina women.  If that is what you are looking for fine, but I don't think that is the case.

In short, I think you are setting yourself an impossible task to find happiness.  If you are going to rule out Filipina women, then your best bet would be stick with Chinese women.  Also, I don't think you should rule out Filipina women.  I understand your concern about the religion thing (and I would have the same concerns), but I think it is likely that you could find several who would not be 'all hung up' about religion and who would be tolerant about your lack of it.

Oh, in case you are wondering, I have been to China, Taiwan, Philippines and many countries in Eastern Europe.  While the focus of many of my trips has been business, I have had lots of interaction with the women in all countries.  I love them all . . . . but am not yet ready to marry anyone.  But my choice in all of Asia would definitely be Filipina.  And, because of my preference for women taller than 5 feet 6 inches, I really have to go with the women from Eastern Europe.  Despite all the talk about the scammers there, I have yet to meet a scammer from among the 30 + women I have spent time with, nor have I even been approached by scammers among the 400 + that I have had some correspondence with.

I have more to say, but I suspect this will cause enough of a firestorm so will stop now.

Good luck,

JR

[Hamlet]

... in response to Re: Women of other Asian countries (LONG..., posted by juio99 on Jan 11, 2003

I agree with this writer about the materialism of the Japanese.   I lived there recently for two years, studied in a university and lived with Japanese families.  There are exceptions to this materialism, but not too many, especially as it is a conformist society.  Most of the women I met there were interested in dating Americans as a curiosity, not as a potential future mate.

I also agree with the comment about the economic advancement of that society making the people more like, say, Canadians.

I liked your analysis of the various Asian cultures and your thought processes for deciding where to go.  However, it seems that you are letting the places where you can teach English drive your decisions.

Also, have you considered Vietnam?  I have heard many good things about the women in that country.

Hamlet

[NK]

... in response to Supporting view, posted by Hamlet on Jan 13, 2003

[This message has been edited by NK]

I have , though I forget the  exact source. And for five years, I belonged to a public speaking organization and formed a few good friendships with several long standing members, including a married couple. She was a second generation Vietnamese-Canadian, same age as me. She was reasonably good looking with an outgoing personality, very practical,smart -- good head on her shoulders. She was the kind of person who took an obvious interest in who ever she talked to at length. And she worked in PR for a marketing firm.  A pretty attractive woman all around, but taken alas. I also had a pretty good friendship with her husband, though I never found myself talking to him as much because...well aside from the fact that he worked in IT, I gotta say he was pretty much exactly like me: quiet, introverted, glasses, slight build not a stud but not bad looking either, even though he could be considered a geek as he often called himself. He got himself a good catch and...well now you got me thinking. :-)

But I don't know much about teaching or work opportunities in Vietnam or Vietnamese penpal sites. I only hope there's more than a handful of VW to be seen at asiafriendfinder.com ;-)

But I'm still considering Japan, (and others) in spite of what a few here have said. And yes, I'm letting the countries where the demand for ESL seems greatest dictate things becasue that is my primary reason for going abroad, while the women are secondary, for reasons I explained previously. I won't repeat it all again, but I will say this: I corresponded privately by email with a one time poster on the Russian board. He was telling me all the reasons he had changed his mind about MOBs and why he decided it wasn't for him. And one thing he said to me that gave me food for thought was this: " don't get me wrong though. International dating CAN work, but NOT the way those guys (meaning these boards) are are doing it. What you have to do is go and live in the country you're interested in for a while. Learn the language, culture, customs and everything else that's important...do all that and things can work out quite nicely."

Now, does this mean I think he's necessarily right? No, of course not.

Those of you who are happily married no doubt know yourselves just how wrong he is. Having said that however, I don't think you can deny the fact that living in the country for a year or longer offers many obvious advantages over correspondence (and the occasional visit) alone. And if I do happen to find a woman while I'm there (remember I'm going into this with no expectation of any guarantees about anything) then I want to make sure I'm in as good a position as I can possibly be to ensure my chances of finding long term happiness.

As the old saying goes, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

-- Niall

[Hamlet]

... in response to Funny you should mention Vietnam!, posted by NK on Jan 14, 2003

Niall,

Yes, you are absolutely right about living abroad. Information you receive here should be considered just one of many sources for you.  

Look at it this way.  Once you figure it all out and are happily living abroad and living your dream, would you have the time and inclination to spend your days describing your experiences to men still thinking about whether to take that two week vacation abroad?  

And I have heard that you can teach English in Vietnam but I have no resources to share with you.  

Hamlet

[NK]

... in response to Re: Women of other Asian countries (LONG..., posted by juio99 on Jan 11, 2003

Looks like I hit the submit button too quickly. Here's what else you said that I wanted to address:

"...despite what you will hear from other men and those who are married to Japanese women and Taiwanese women, they are nothing like the women from those countries say 30-50 years ago. Today, the women from Japan are much more like those from USA and Canada than they are like Filipina women. If that is what you are looking for fine, but I don't think that is the case."

Again  bear in mind that we're all individuals with different needs and priorities. Just as not all women overseas who seek foreign husbands are green card sharks and scammers, nor do all men who are looking for foreign wives fit one broad stereotype either. No, I'm not looking for a drop dead gorgeous woman 15-20 years younger than I am. Now I'm 29 but even if I were older I would still prefer to stick with a woman closer to my own age. A lot of other men don't seem content to do that and even though I personally think this isn't a good idea -- what others do is none of my business. Also if I am mistaken in my next assumption I apologize and tell me so if I'm wrong, but from what you've said above I gather you're one of those men who values a more "traditional" family arrangement, meaning the man is the sole income earner while the wife stays at home and looks after the kids. Now I have absolutely no problem with this kind of arrangement if both parties are happy with it. And yes, if that's what a man is looking for...then of course it would make perfect sense to search in a country like the Phillipines where there seem to be a great many women who will be quite happy with this lifestyle, particularly those that come from the more remote rural regions (this could apply to most any other country for that matter) where levels of educational attainment or career aspiration tend not to be as high as in urban regions. This seems to be pretty universal in every country around the globe. While this kind of relationship may suit many men, it doesn't suit me. And I know that a cross cultural marriage is difficult enough without too many other differences thrown into the mix as well (including age, as I mentioned above) and I that being what it is, I perfer someone who's comes from a more cosmopolitan urban center, like myself and has about the same level of education as myself. One of the things that is most important for me is a woman who I am intellectually compatible with, and more often than not (though by no means always), education is for me, a pretty good indicator of this. Again let me make VERY clear that this DOES NOT AT ALL mean that there are no smart and highly educated women form the Phillipines. IN fact there are three ladies I personally know right here in Vancouver that immediately come to mind. But for some reason, women with college degrees or greater from mostly urbanized areas just don't SEEM as numerous among profiles the *I* have seen of Filipinas at the various sites. There do however seem to be quite a few of them among profiles of Chinese, Japanese (the few I've seen, anyway)Korean AND Russian, Ukranian as well as other women from Eastern Europe. I myself perfer such a woman and I am under no illusions that such a woman is going to be content to be stuck in the  role of permanent stay-at-home-mom. And as a quick side note, I should state my own opinion that I think this is another reason for the comparatively high failure rate for men who've marry FSU women, since I've heard many of them say that they want a well educated women (as FSU women very typically are) whom they also expect play the role of to be devoted housewife. IMHO, this is not being realistic. (and if they're also looking for a drop-dead gorgeous young thing whose 20+ years younger in addition that makes it even more so) And I don't mean to knock all guys looking for FSU wives, all I'm saying is that I made a decision that they were not right for me. And this is the Asian board, not the Russian board so I'll say no more about that here. I'll just end things by saying that we would all do well to bear in mind that the more educated a woman is, the less likely it is she will be content to live the life of a housewife and nothing more. These are the sort of things that have to be taken into consideration for a marriage to be successfull, regardless of where the woman comes from.

Niall

[juio99]

... in response to in addition to below, posted by NK on Jan 13, 2003

Niall, no we are not on same wavelength regarding my comment women in Japan were nothing like 20-50 years ago or in Philippines and FSU today.

I was not referring at all to trying to find drop dead gorgeous 20 somethings or women who were content to stay at home, or all of those other 'typical' things you referred to.

To avoid a long message I will cut right to the point.  The Japanese woman of today is the most materialistic woman you are likely to meet on this planet.  The young Japanese, of both sexes, will put Americans to shame in their pursuit of the latest status symbol, and this is filtering upward on a age basis throughout Japan.  In addition, the desires of feminists here in west are rapidly being adopted by Japanese women.  So think of all the bad things you dislike about western women you can conjure up, and you will find it in spades in a growing number of Japanese women.

I understand your point about teaching English being primary and looking for women being secondary.  Well just hope that can sustain you!!!    :-)))

JR

[Jeff S]

... in response to Re: in addition to below, posted by juio99 on Jan 13, 2003

Yes, there are some very materialistic Japanese women, but to say "all the bad things you dislike about western women you can conjure up, and you will find it in spades in a growing number of Japanese women," is WAY overstating the issue. The VAST majority of the complaints you hear from men on these boards about American women is NOT about women wanting the good life in terms of material possessions, it's about women wanting to be in total control, of them calling all the shots in a relationship, of them expecting their men to live up to a code of behavior that they themselves are unwilling to live up to. It's about looking at the relationships from a selfish and adversarial viewpoint.

In Japan's extremely long history, for only the very briefest of times have the people been flush with cash, the late 60s to early 90s, so yes, there may be a semi spoiled generation in there, but nowadays, the issue of frugality is foremost in the monds of most Japanese. Even in the heyday of the mid 80s when it seemed the Japanese could buy the entire planet, most Japanese still thought it far more important to have a fat savings account than have a closet stuffed full of brand name clothes. PLUS - I've never met a Japanese awash in credit card debt - it's unheard of. Even young, irresponsible, materialistic Japanese women save first and spend later and spend only cash available.

Getting back to the real issue of the dislikes expressed about American women being prevalent in Japanese women, The long traditions of Japanese women standing by their man, and contributing in a cooperative way to the relationships hasn't changed appreciably. I see it in my nieces as much as in my wife's aunts. What HAS changed, though, is the acceptability of divorce, so that women who are cheated on (having mistresses and outside affairs is almost a cliche among Japanese men - many are embarassed if they don't!) or being physically abused, (another common problem among Japanese men) means the wives can leave rather than just take it as was expected up until the late 1970s. Japanese men simply treated their women badly because they could - without consequence.

Like every other naionality, there are good and bad apples, honest and dishonest people, loyal and disloyal wives, and Japan is no different. Japan has had long tradition of the marriage being a cooperative effort, with each of the partners contributing what he or she does best, without an adversarial power struggle, continues to this day.

If your goal is to find a young, naieve barefoot country girl you can mold into your idea of a good little woman, stay away from Japan - but if you're looking for a loyal partner who you can treat as an equal and who will treat you as an equal, there are few places better than Japan to look.

Just my never humble opinion.

- Jeff S.

[Ray]

... in response to I have to disagree., posted by Jeff S on Jan 13, 2003

:-)