The Good, the Bad and the Ugly -VICKY

[The Walker]

Although my family is wealthy by Filipino standards I am not naive. I did much work in charity for women in the sex trade. I did counseling, testing and provided protection for those who desired to leave the trade but feared for themselves. I also worked to assist OCW women who found themselves in situations they did not bargain for in their service contracts especially in Singapore and Taiwan. So I know what I am talking about.

Although the men here tend to be very honorable, they are not the majority of American men who visit the Philippines for pleasure or to find "wives". Most are looking for easy sex or else they are looking to "buy" a wife, a woman many years their junior to make them feel young again. Many times the parents are willing accomplices, even pushing the girl into marriage in hopes of reaping financial rewards for themselves. This is not a dig at Howard, who was looking honorably for a wife and who behaved very well indeed, but his former wife's parents are by no means unusual in the Philippines.

And, on the other hand, there are Filipino families who make a cottage industry of treating men like Howard was treated, or for getting "cell phone" money and all the rest, or drinking and eating at the American man's expense like pigs and without gratitude. Many are little more than pimps for their daughters. Many girls are beaten by their parents if they do not comply, and the whole family will support the parents if they can get money out of it too, often finding the girls who run away and taking them home to be beaten into submission. These families I would cast into prison for ten years to think about their behavior. For every decent American (or western European man) who comes to the Philippines for honorable reasons, there are three or more there on sex tours or for nefarious purposes regarding Filipinas. Many of these men are taking pictures for western internet pornography sites. Many are simply enjoying the flesh pots. Don't feel too bad, the Chinese and Japanese are far worse. And the Germans are the worst westerners, with the Australians a close second.

But we are talking about American men in the Philippines. If you read places like this one, you would think that most American men are in the Philippines for strictly honorable purposes. There are too many like the mysterious and dastardly Larry that Ken is angry with. I cannot tell much difference between Canadians and Americans, and most people outside the US do not, either, I don't think. This is so prevalent that every time I see a Canadian, they have little flags all over everything so they will not be mistaken for Americans. So Canadian/Americans, the same to me. Like Cebu/Leyte to Americans. But there are many, many American men there to try and take advantage of naive Filipinas. I saw it all the time. They got them into prostitution or drugs or theft. Many of them get these women to bed with promises of marriage and trips to America and support for her family. In the Philippines, you can support a girlfriend and give some money to her family cheaper then you can date in America. She will stay with her parents while they go back to America and on their trips to the Phils they will sleep with the American man. If she becomes pregnant, he abandons her. He often has used a false name or address to her and her family. They cannot collect any money from him any how. Many of the green card sharks and women who milk men were originally abused by foreign men. Americans are the major target, because America is the richest country and has a history with the Phils, so they are the most prevalent of westerners. Americans are also on the whole wealthier, as coming from the wealthiest nation on the world.

So you men here tend to tilt things not on purpose but by your very generosity and your honor. Bad men do not post their exploits on decent boards like this and Patrick would ban them if they did, which I think is wrong, as people need to see the bad everywhere and so be forewarned. Maybe Suriago Ken SHOULD start a board or site with horror stories (true, of course) of both American men cheating Filipinas and Filipinas and their families who defraud American men.

So why do honest Filipinas continue to desire American men? Because with all the problems I have stated here, overall the American men are very good on average when they are honest. American men when they are good, are very, very good. The women hope to meet their Prince Charming, as I did with my husband. I do realize how very, very lucky I have been with this man. His honor is beyond question, he is genuinely kind and generous and noble. The average Filipina would do almost anything to get a husband like mine (drat them). Or one of you men here. Even normally good girls may be tempted to compromise their ethics for the chance to land such a husband to have and to keep for life, even if they intend to be good and honest wives thereafter. But men like my husband are few and far in-between. Men like most men here are not common. Men of decency like Howard and others are not the usual run of men who come to the Philippines on a day in and day out basis.

So Patrick, please allow some more of the bad to be told here by both sides. It may prevent a tragedy of a broken home and a broken heart and ruined lives.

Thank you.

VICKY

[greg]

... in response to The Good, the Bad and the Ugly -VICKY, posted by The Walker on Dec 16, 2002

I think both You and Your Hubby were Lucky to find each other. Yeah, there are alot of Misfits going to RP with questionable motives. God Bless

[Mita]

... in response to The Good, the Bad and the Ugly -VICKY, posted by The Walker on Dec 16, 2002

Vicky,
My take on this board is it's open to anything except when things get out of hand and posters get personal and rude. That's the only time I've encountered banning since I actively participated here.
A lot of Filipinas post here too and fortunately, they have good husbands like yours and mine.  
Here, as in life, we can only warn each other about the G, the B & the U.  But every person makes his own choices, good or bad.  Both men and women take a risk when it comes to marriage, whether it is to a Filpino/a or American.

[panther]

... in response to The Good, the Bad and the Ugly -VICKY, posted by The Walker on Dec 16, 2002

You make many valid points. I tend to agree most of the people who post here have honorable intentions and are not truly representative of the populace as a whole.
It's nice to get another prospective on this.

[Humabdos]

... in response to The Good, the Bad and the Ugly -VICKY, posted by The Walker on Dec 16, 2002

n/t

[Ray]

... in response to The Good, the Bad and the Ugly -VICKY, posted by The Walker on Dec 16, 2002

Vicky,

You make some good points, but I’m not sure what you mean by allowing more of the “bad” to be told here. As far as I know, Patrick has always encouraged the negative experiences. But he doesn’t allow sex-tour guides or trip reports on sexual exploits with prostitutes if that’s what you had in mind.

I agree that there are a lot of foreign men visiting the Philippines primarily for the purpose of drinking and scoring cheap sex. Those people will go to the countries where prostitution is readily available and inexpensive, e.g. Philippines & Thailand. But I would differ with your assertion that those Americans on sex tours are taking advantage of naïve Filipina prostitutes or forcing them into drug use and prostitution. I am certainly not defending their behavior, but you can’t blame the customers for everything. If the prostitutes were not available, then they wouldn’t come to the Philippines for “sex tours”. From what I’ve seen, I think most of the prostitute bars & whorehouses were owned by Filipinos or Chinese-Filipinos. And I wouldn’t automatically assume that all of those prostitutes are naïve little girls either. I would say that the majority of them are true professionals in every sense.

As for the guys that go over just to take advantage of some poor province girl to take her virginity and then dump her, I know it happens and it’s disgusting. But I wouldn’t say that that type makes up ¾ of American visitors either. Maybe around 5% of those not on “sex tours”?

Then there’s the Very old guys going over to find a Very young wife. As long as they are both consenting adults, then who cares? Yes, I’m sure that some of those guys are getting suckered by a girl who is more interested in a green card than they are in his wrinkled old body, but don’t you think that those men know what’s going on? They are getting a hot young chick for a year or two of bliss and she gets a green card. Sounds like a fair trade to me, so I don’t have a lot of sympathy for those guys when their marriage doesn’t last. Those old guys aren’t as naïve as some may think, IMHO. Besides, I would say that a good number of those relationships end up happy ones after all.

Thank you for your insights Vicky.

Ray

[Humabdos]

... in response to Re: The Bad, the Good, and the Ugly, posted by Ray on Dec 16, 2002

To blame prostitution on the ugly Kano's is a load of crap!
Besides AC, Puerto Galera and a few other places most of the prostitutes are for Filipinos not foreign men! Every town in the Pi has there hookers! Towns that foreigners never go to. Of course these hookers would rather make $20 from a kano than the P50 they get from some drunk jeepney driver who slaps them around. That's why they head to AC.

Hum

[The Walker]

... in response to Ray I couldn't agree more!, posted by Humabdos on Dec 17, 2002

no text

[Patrick]

... in response to The Good, the Bad and the Ugly -VICKY, posted by The Walker on Dec 16, 2002

I don't have any problem with bad stories.  It's guys trading stories of their exploits with bar girls that are not tolerated.  I don't think anybody here want's to be associated with the whore mongers, myself included.  General discussion of the prostitution issue, such as your post, is okay with me.

[joemc]

... in response to Good, bad and ugly, posted by Patrick on Dec 16, 2002

Hi Folks,
       I'm good,ugly and once that bad boy.And don't
       have problem with it. Then the love of my life
       came into picture. Ha ha ha and he he he
                                    joemc

[The Walker]

... in response to Re: Good, bad and ugly, posted by joemc on Dec 16, 2002

Forgive me but English is not my first or even second language. Despite my time in the USA I still have troubles sometimes explaining myself at length, as my husband can attest at very great length when he wishes to tease.

Kanos are not to blame for the prostitution. As I said most of the girls are forced into the trade by economics or their own families. I thought I was clear on that I am sorry if I was not. If they were abandoned with children they are sometimes forced into the trade to live and support their children. Filipinas have no social safety net as in America. She and her children can literally starve to death in public.

But most American men DO come for sex. I lived there for 40 years and worked with charities for the sex trade for fifteen years. True my main area was Manila, which leans things, but I also worked or had girls (and some men) from the other areas, such as Cebu, and even Leyte. People do not realize the abuse the gay men take in the sex trade. "Rough trade" they call it.

Also Kanos are not to blame for most of the drug trade and snuff films. They contribute a lot but the worst are the Chinese in this area and native Filipinos. But they do take girls to America and get them on drugs and use them as prostitutes and for making pornography, since some of these girls return after being used up, are kicked out of the US as being undesireables or else are sent back under threat by her American "fiancee" so he can go and get another. Her family will not take her back if they are decent and she has little choice.

As for men who take very young brides, more than 40 years their junior, that is between the man and woman, yes, but too often it is the family that forces her into accepting the marriage. A Filipina will see a man 20 years her senior as a good match but few will accept a man over 40 years her senior without inducements of one sort or another or else desperation. Sometimes yes but usually not. If she has a child out of wedlock, or more, she is desperate. And a woman may be forced into accepting a man when she is not ready to marry by her family as was Howards's problem. Poor Howard, I feel so bad for him as he walked into a trap and had no chance. As I feel bad for the woman who married the Vietnamese man, is she still around?

As Nathan said the men here are not the usual type of man who goes to the Philippines. But do not feel bad, as native Filipino men and other foreigners are usually much worse. As I said, overall, American men are better than the rest, but they are no pack of angels as a whole. My husband is more understanding than I am in this area, perhaps because he was once a naughty single man himself, interested in girls for one reason, but he harmed no innicents. And he has turned out very well indeed. Men are different from women.

VICKY

[Ray]

... in response to VICKY, That is not what I meant., posted by The Walker on Dec 17, 2002

Hi Vicky,

Thanks for the clarification. And you don’t need to apologize for your English because it’s excellent.

I was glad to hear that you weren’t blaming Americans for the existence of prostitution in the Philippines. But I would have to disagree with your assertion that most Filipina prostitutes are “forced” into the trade. My guess would be that much less than 1% of them were actually “forced” to become prostitutes. Because you’re hungry doesn’t mean that you are “forced” to engage in prostitution, but yes, hunger can certainly be a factor. I would say that the majority of Filipina prostitutes or bar girls actually enjoy the lifestyle. Of course they aren’t going to tell You that when you ask them, but I think most like the pay, the excitement, the nice clothes, the higher standard of living, etc. For a young girl from the province, it’s probably much more interesting than being a housemaid or something similar. I would be willing to wager that if you went into the bar districts and offered those GROs a decent job in the mall department store, most would turn you down.

We’ve all heard the stories of innocent Filipinas who went to America on a fiancée visa only to be drugged and forced to participate in porn and “snuff” films, but how many cases of that actually happen? Is that a major problem or just a few isolated incidents? Do you have experience working with any of those girls? I really know little about the subject.

As far as the Americans who travel to the Phils primarily to party, I agree that they are probably in the majority when compared to the type of guys on this forum. I know some single guys that go back every year and usually spend most of their time in Angeles or Subic City. They are mostly ex-military guys who are on a nostalgia trip. For the most part, they aren’t evil people and they aren’t raping young girls. They are simply having a good time in a wild town with lots of cheap beer and women. They aren’t breaking any laws in the Philippines that I know of and they wouldn’t be there if that sort of “entertainment” wasn’t available. That’s not for me, but I won’t condemn those guys as a bunch of criminals. “Ugly Americans” maybe, but not “bad” people. Besides, I’m sure that the dollars they spend help the local economy considerably. If the Filipinos don’t want them there, then they should close down all the bars in Angeles and the other spots like they did in Olongapo.

Just my $.02,

Ray

[outwest77]

... in response to VICKY, That is not what I meant., posted by The Walker on Dec 17, 2002

[This message has been edited by outwest77]

I agree with most of your statements, except one, that MOST of the americans or foreigners come there for sex.
How do you know that, if you deal with charities for girls in the sex trade, of course that would be the men you are exposed to , but how do you form the opinion that MOST of the men come for sex. Did you do a survey of foreign men coming to the phils, Some come for business, some come to meet penpals, and im sure many come to prowl the bars, but
how do you make a statement judging the percentage of those men who come for what reason.........If you hang around the bar areas, 99% of the men, for example, prowling Burgos in makati, or who go to angeles city, I am sure are there for that reason.

I think the Phils newspapers etc tend to like to sensationalize things
and play the victim and say that the foreigners are taking advantage of the poor filipinos, It makes good headlines, Even though you are now trying to say that you did not mean to say that its the foreigners fault for putting the bargirls in that situation, i think maybe you think that down deep, its easier to blame the other guy,

There are a lot of lowlife foreigners who go to the phils but I dont think  you, or me, or anyone else could accurately say that MOST of the guys who go to the Phils are barhopping, sleazeballs, It puts all the guys on this board in a category of "one in a million" exceptions to the rule, and I think the number of posters on this board show you that we are very high in number, and not necessarily that rare to find. We are just boring
to the newspapers, not as sizzling as a story about all those BAD foreigners who come to USE the filipina women and take advantage of them.

[Jeff S]

... in response to How do you know, posted by outwest77 on Dec 17, 2002

Whether it's a majority or not is moot - that the PI was considered a center of prostitution is not. Back when I was traveling to the Far East a lot on business, I was the projecty engineer for a major shipyard construction project in Batangas on Luzon, and every time I mentioned the project to anyone in the business world in the US or Asia, the first topic to come up was ladies of the evening. Back in the late 70s and early 80s, most of the business people going to the Philippines either participated in this or expected it and went out of their way to avoid it. Couple that with the biggest presence of Americans in the Philippines in the past 50 years, the military (wherever there are GIs there are hookers,) and you have a very strong REPUTATION for a sex trade. Reps die hard, so I'm sure there are plenty of unsavory characters coming to sample the local flavors.

Thailand also, has a very strong reputation for a sex trade. Mention Thailand in Japan and it is assumed you are traveling there solely to fulfil some kinky sexual desire. That the majority of Thais are moral, wholesome, family people, businessmen, aritsans, farmers, etc, is paled by the reputation that you can get whatever kind of sex you can possibly imagine. This alone creates a huge number of foreign visitors there for only one reason. A majority? I don't know, nor is it relavent - but it is a huge influence. When seedy middle aged drunk whoremongers start hassling teenaged girls on the way home from school, does it really matter if it's 30% or 51%?

I didn't read Vicky's post as blaming Americans for the sex trade. I know many Thai families force their daughters into prostitution. I personally know of a case where the money the daughter was able to make as a prostitute was used by her father solely to support his gambling and booze habits. It's totally beyond my comprehension how someone could do that to their own daughter.

Whether a country has a sex trade or not has little to do with the women that most of us are looking for or have found - a good wife. Being aware of the reputation that preceeds the modern day traveller, though, is a valuable nugget you'll never read in a tour guide book. I personally think it's amazing that good girls in the Philippines and Thailand, even consider talking to foreigners. It must be that there are enough of us (as Vicky said - like posters on this board) to make the risk one worth taking.

- Jeff S.

[Nathan]

... in response to The Good, the Bad and the Ugly -VICKY, posted by The Walker on Dec 16, 2002

I quote from your post..."For every decent American (or western European man) who comes to the Philippines for honorable reasons, there are three or more there on sex tours or for nefarious purposes regarding Filipinas. Many of these men are taking pictures for western internet pornography sites. Many are simply enjoying the flesh pots. Don't feel too bad, the Chinese and Japanese are far worse. And the Germans are the worst westerners, with the Australians a close second."
  I lived in Cagayan De Oro for some time, and there, as well as the rest of the country, your picture of men visiting there is very accurate. The majority of western men I met (and avoided like the plague) are sewer scum. Very few met the standards of many of the decent minded posters on this board. That is just the way it is. Thanks for pointing out the simple truth.

Nathan