guess

[The Mog returns]

Guess humbados was right about maganak, that board really is lame. Some guys were posting about the lazy morons that work at the US Embassy there and a filipina whined about it, and now the moderator deleted ALL the posts. Just they only want the sugary sweet posts, nobody wants to read about the cold hard facts. Lame.

[SJ]

... in response to guess, posted by The Mog returns on Jul 12, 2002

There's LOTS of people going thru the hoops of K-1s, K-2s, K-3s, AOS, etc. etc. that need info, advice and suggestions and Mag is a GREAT source for that. There's only been one request for that type of info here in the last several weeks, with only one reply  "here's a Ph #"

[The Mog returns]

... in response to Just for the record, posted by SJ on Jul 13, 2002

SJ, did anyone here say it wasnt? you are really a-retentive aintcha? The whole point was what good is it if they CENSOR some helpful information because one pinay doesnt like the posts about the lazy, rude people that work for and are paid by us tax paying US citizens? I guess free speech is not applicable there.

[SJ]

... in response to Re: Just for the record, posted by The Mog returns on Jul 13, 2002

"Did any here say it wasn't?" You wrote "that board really is lame" Short memory? You really think what they censored was USEFUL information? So quick with the insults too.

[Ray]

... in response to Re: Just for the record, posted by The Mog returns on Jul 13, 2002

I really didn’t want to bring this discussion over here because it started on another forum, but I think it’s important that some things be said now.

First, it seems that most people missed the whole point of the recent “discussion” on Mag-Anak. It was never about the embassy or the way they handle visa processing. I think most all of us that have been through this have some valid complaints about the way things work over there and agree that things need to be changed. The whole point was about Filipino bashing by the resident bigot over there. He doesn’t just hate the way thing work at the embassy, but he obviously hates Filipinos. And he is NOT complaining ONLY about the employees at the embassy. It’s always the lazy FILIPINOS, the incompetent FILIPINOS, the relatives of FILIPINO-Americans that he thinks are getting priority processing over those visas of the REAL Americans, ad nauseum… His idea of fixing the problems at the embassy is to get rid of all of those “BUTT LAZY” FILIPINOS and replace them with “Americans” so he won’t have to see any brown faces in HIS embassy. He even thinks that American citizens who happen to be of Filipino decent aren’t REAL citizens like HE is. If you’ve followed the posts on Mag-Anak for any length of time, I’m sure you know what I’m talking about.

Second, it wasn’t all about one Pinay “whining” about what he said. For your information, I was the one who started the “whining” by complaining about another one of his bigoted posts. Yes, I do tend to speak up when I hear that sort of racially bigoted garbage. If you want to call it “whining” then go right ahead. And more than “one” Filipina member over there did speak out against his insulting comments. My whole original premise was that this kind of hate-speech contributes nothing positive to a forum where the vast majority of readers is either Filipino or are married or engaged to Filipinos.

Third, a lot of people don’t realize or just don’t care how words can hurt. When you continually bash a group of people, others are going to feel hurt by your hateful words. I think Greg and some others should have learned that when Lori spoke out against the continual bashing of American women on this forum. Bashing other groups may make some people feel better, but they should realize that others are going to be hurt by your words. I think a lot of folks do this unconsciously and don’t mean to hurt others, but the resident bigot over there on M-A goes out of his way to shout his hatred to the world and he could care less who’s feelings get hurt. I’m ashamed that people like him call themselves Americans.

Also, don’t think for a minute that just because someone is married to a Filipina, he can’t be prejudiced against Filipinos. I’ve seen it too many times. I think Humabdos pointed that out recently that some guys married to Pinays love the women and the beer but can’t stand most of the rest of what the Philippines is all about.

Is there a lesson in all of this? I think it would be a good idea for all of us to stop and consider what our words can do to others. By all means speak your mind and complain about those things that you feel strongly about. But if you offend someone by insulting their heritage with negative stereotypes, and they speak out about it, don’t be so surprised by what you perceive to be “whining”. It’s merely another individual defending his or her own against ignorance and hate.

Again, one more time, the whole point was NOT about someone complaining about the embassy employees. It was about racial bigotry and hateful speech from one individual.

My $.02,

Ray

[Stephen]

... in response to Re: Re: Just for the record (long), posted by Ray on Jul 13, 2002

I think what you've said is true.  Certainly it's practical.

But I also think that certain filipinas rule the board over there.  They are given a higher level of credability that others.  It's assumed that they are always right and you have to deal with them with kid gloves.

I think that perhaps we need some sort of "affirmative action" program where we could be placed on equal footing with them.  What do you thing, Ray.  (LOL)

I think you know that ladies over there I'm talking about.

Stephen

PS:  Tess says "hi" to Megs.

[kevin]

... in response to Re: Just for the record (short), posted by Stephen on Jul 14, 2002

How about "equal opportunity" instead!  Well, I must say that one thing I really hate is somebody that thinks they can get away with wrongdoing, I mean stepping on others for personal gain with the feeling of impunity because they're a minority.  Every individual should be judged based on his/her own merits and his/her own actions.

The only thing that bothers me about Mag-Anak is that there have been a couple of guys at least, spurned royally by golddiggers, yet banned (or threatened to be banned) because of their lamenting about their experiences.  Yet I can think of one person who occasionally posts, after what she did, and act as if nothing ever happened.  Something is wrong with that picture.  Just by virtue of the support she gets.  A guy would never get away with what she did.  Yet, what bothers me about the board is the sympathy, and sometimes the support, some people garner just because they're female and/or of a minority racial/ethnic group.

Now about morality, I must say that immorality is rampant in the Philippines at all levels of society.  I must face that fact.  It is discouraging given that I'm seeking a good Filipina partner.  But that is a fact of life.  That's why socio-economic problems persist in the Philippines. I was discussing this stuff with a Filipino-American friend who is much older than myself.  His goal is to retire in the Philippines with what he was able to build in terms of a nest egg in America.  He will not deny or pretend that it doesn't exist about the social acceptability of swindling, bribery, lying, cheating, etc.  All that matters to him is that every individual is accountable for his/her own actions.  When one person is bad, others suffer.  When a group of people. like a clan, is bad, the suffering of others is multiplied.  What's worse is when those in law-making, law-executing, or law-enforcement capacity are bad.

My friend is very supportive of me finding a special pinay.  He'd be very happy for me.  But he also recognizes the reality of things for what they really are.  He told me that about 75% of the girls that place personals care only about getting to the United States.  He recently took a trip to the Philippines.  Indeed there were plenty of available gals.  But he told me, in good concience, he could not introduce me because it was too much of a high risk proposition that such a girl's interest would be only to get to the United States.

As for the heated stuff on Mag-Anak, I think it was exaggerated.  Yes, everybody that wants to get their personal business done has the right to be frustrated about a workforce they have to interact with that is anything but helpful.  I can also see that somebody of good character would hate to be prejudged on basis of race/ethnicity because of the wrongdoing (and acceptability of it) of other members of her group.  On the same token, for mwe to be walking around in the Philippines (as a white guy or "G.I. Joe"), I'd hate being called a "John" or charged higher prices in the form of the so-called skin tax because everybody believes I'm kuripot and hiding money.  I think M-O-F had the right to defend herself. She must feel frustrated.  The guy that perpetuated this stuff also tends to be arrogant, and I think in his own situation, he's insecure. I've always admired M-O-F, and I believe she's a person with a good heart and good intentions.  Just an overall nice person.

- Kevin

[Stephen]

... in response to Re: Re: Just for the record (short), posted by kevin on Jul 14, 2002

Yeah....I'd forgotten about Vivian.

I think I'll search for Jean's sites and see if Vivian is posted there.  (LOL)

Stephen

[kevin]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Just for the record (short), posted by Stephen on Jul 14, 2002

MAN!  You've said it!  It may not be politically correct, but in black-and-white what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong.  It's disgusting that she was able to set foot in this country, especially in ther name of love or so-called love.  But she has no hiya.

- Kevin

[The Mog returns]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Just for the record (sho..., posted by kevin on Jul 14, 2002

I just cant believe that Americans cant effect any kind of meaningful changes in the management of employees in our Embassy that are there to serve US Citizens. One can go on and on about hurt feelings, boo hoo hoo. Racism has been going on since the beginning of time. Stereotyping has also.
Censoring it and burying your head in the ground wont make it go away. There are lazy, unhelpful people working everywhere. What I want to know is how many people out there would expend any effort in order to attempt to effect a change in something that has obviously been hurting a lot of people for a very long period of time. A far more efficient use of our resources IMO.
My best to all, and especially those of us made to feel helpless and in the dark by US embassy employees. What goes around, comes around.

[Ray]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just for the record ..., posted by The Mog returns on Jul 14, 2002

Mog, I’m not sure what your point is. Do you mean that it’s O.K. to make racist statements or use insulting stereotypes on these forums? I’m afraid that you’re correct when you say racism isn’t going to go away, but that doesn’t make it right, does it? If you accept it, then maybe you’re part of the problem. I don’t see why some people get all upset when someone speaks out against something that they disagree with.

In all fairness to the moderators on M-A, I don’t think they “censored” anyone’s ideas or deleted any threads because of racist comments about Filipinos. They usually don’t do that and you can look back in the archive pages and see that stuff still there. The discussion topic was deleted only after the trolls swooped in and tried to start a flame war. When the personal insults begin, that’s usually when the delete button gets used. No, I wish they hadn’t deleted anything, because it could have been an excellent learning experience for all of us.

From my experience with Filipinos, I have found them to be fiercely proud of their heritage and they are some of the hardest workers that I’ve ever seen. When they hear disparaging remarks about their work ethic and hear ignorant people calling them lazy, it hurts. I’ve also noticed that rather than confront it publicly when this happens, they usually tend to hold their feelings inside. If you say something that they don’t like, and they don’t complain openly about it, it’s easy to misinterpret that as indifference. When the pressure builds up over time, you might be very surprised at the emotional response when they finally do speak up. I learned a lot of this stuff the hard way from living and working with Filipinos for the past 34 years :-)

Anyway, about your question of doing something about the embassy problems in Manila, I think you can have some influence over the situation if you write some intelligent letters to your congressional representatives. When they hear enough complaints over time, they have been known to take action in the past. That’s why they put the K-3/K-4 visa option in the Life Act, because of complaints that married couples had to unfairly wait for so long compared to the time it took to get a fiancé visa processed. But if you want to get a positive response to your complaint, you should try to be specific and include names, dates, and details of problems that you have encountered. Just venting and ranting about lazy-azz Filipinos and how “real Americans” are getting screwed by those worthless immigrants and their relatives will probably get your letter thrown in the trash with the other hate mail. Besides your congressman, I would also write to the Consul General in Manila, and the American ambassador to the Philippines. They may or may not be fully aware of the problems that you are having, so it is worth a shot anyway.

Jeff S also made an excellent point I think. It’s not just the consulate or the INS, it’s government bureaucracy and the perception toward public employees in general. When you are having problems with your visa, of course you tend to focus your anger on the people who have the paperwork in their hands, but I don’t believe that lazy embassy employees are the real problem. I’ve been dealing with the U.S. consulate in Manila off and on for over 30 years and it’s not laziness that I found, but rather poor management and a terrible work overload that were at the root of many of the problems. When you consider that we are currently at war and all of our immigration policies and procedures are under intensive scrutiny, it’s not too surprising that things are getting harder instead of easier.

I wish you luck with your visa,

Ray

[The Mog returns]

... in response to How to complain, posted by Ray on Jul 15, 2002

Nope ray, I dont condone stereotyping or racism at all. I have Mexicans, Vietnamese and blacks working for me in my department, and yes you are 100% correct, poor managment is often the problem. My point is that in some form or another, we all experience racism or sterotyping at some times in our lives. have you never received a less than friendly look from a Black man? How about this, when I was young I was stereotyped for being a young, stupid punk, now Im stereotyped as an old man. Anyone other than children, whose value systems are still developing, come to grips with this reality of life in some way or another. My point is that covering up and painting a happy neutral face on the issue does more harm than good. I am not sure exactly what posts were deleted over there, but I know there were some that maybe should not have been. Get the feelings out on the table, then move on from there. The key is understanding. If Embassy employees understood OUR frustration, and how much it hurts, maybe they would not answer the phone with "Sir, everyone is at lunch now". Maybe if enough of them saw those posts they would help. Someone might even have a friend or relative that knows someone that works at the Embassy. We are all adults, and sure, its hurts to be stereotyped by another group but hey? did that stop anyone from being friendly to Filipinos, when some of them view us as Mr Millionaire moneybags, and when the moneychanger on Mabini street swindled me out $300 us dollars did I think any less of the friendly Filipinos? The point was, that some people feel because the moderators are married to Filipinas, they in fact may be controlling the content of that board, so that all posts only put them in a favorable light. personally, if I heard another group complaining about MY work ethic, I would do all in my power to correct it, not for their satisfaction, but my own.
All Im asking is baby steps, how about someone to answer a phone for starters?

[Matthew]

... in response to Re: How to complain, posted by The Mog returns on Jul 15, 2002

Mog,

Had the same problem last summer.They ARE all out to lunch!At least the ones left there.

Went to high school in Manila and had alot of buddies who were "embassy  kids"They get home leave every other year and don't stay much past three years.Half the Americans are on home leave and lots of others rotating out.I went to a 4th July BBQ at the embassy one time and was one of the few Americans there.Not much business getting done there during the summer.As for the local staff,well,when the the boss is away the staff will play.

Hold on.Keep the faith and don't let the summer heat get to you.They will be back at full staff come Mid-August.Same thing last year.That is the time when myself,Dave H, and several others got our approvals.

tito Matt

[Dave H]

... in response to Re: Re: How to complain, posted by Matthew on Jul 16, 2002

N/T

[Stephen]

... in response to Re: Re: How to complain, posted by Matthew on Jul 16, 2002

I dare you to go to Mag Anak board and post this.

I DARE YOU!

Stephen