From a russian woman

[Bruno Thoumsin]

These forum have only meaning of man... but what think FSU woman about all this... i have contact friend ( woman ) from Moscow... she don't search specialy a foreign man... she search more a russian man...

I have ask her to read these forum and say what she think about what the man write... and she was surprise about what some man say about russian woman...

I give you her reaction below... the original in Russian language...

Àëåíà, 25 Ðîññèÿ, Ìîñêâà

Âñåõ æåíùèí ïîä îäíó ãðåáåíêó ïîäâîäèòü íåëüçÿ, âñå æåíùèíû ðàçíûå, áóäü òî ðóññêàÿ èëè àìåðèêàíêà, èëè íåìêà....
×åì ìû îòëè÷àåìñÿ?
Ìîæåò áûòü òåì, ÷òî áîëåå ÷óâñòâåííûå íàòóðû, ïðîíèöàòåëüíûå, íåêîòîðûå çàêîìïëåêñîâàíûå, âîçìîæíî, íî îò ëèöà ðóññêèõ æåíùèí ÿ áû íå ñòàëà âûñòóïàòü è îöåíèâàòü èõ.
Ìû õîëîäíûå?
Ãëóïîñòè, äóìàþ îäíè èç ãîðÿ÷èõ æåíùèí, íî ïî íàñòðîåíèþ...âîçìîæíî.
Ïëîõîé õàðàêòåð?
Òîæå íå ñîãëàñíà....êàê ïîíÿòü ïëîõîé õàðàêòåð....âîñïèòàíèå?
Äóìàþ, âîñïèòàííû è îáðàçîâàíû.
ß çíàþ â îñíîâíîì èíòåëåãåíòíûõ æåíùèí, ëþáÿùèõ ìàòåðåé è æåí, êðàñèâûõ è íå î÷åíü, íî âñå ñèìïàòè÷íûå, ïîñêîëüêó íå áûâàåò â ìèðå íåêðàñèâûõ, åñòü íåïðèÿòíûå, ìîæåò áûòü.
Íàñêîëüêî ìíå èçâåñòíî, êðàñîòà îáû÷íî ìåøàåò ñåìåéíîìó ñ÷àñòüþ.

Maybe for these of you who are married with woman from FSU, it is good to ask what they think about all is write in these forum... meaning from the two side can maybe give very good result...

[Bruno Thoumsin]

... in response to From a russian woman, posted by Bruno Thoumsin on Jan 21, 2005

From Jim www.agencyscams.com :

First some statistics - the marriage rate for people who find each other through an internet agency is 4%. That means you have to date 25 women before you find "the one". The divorce rate is 70%. (After the girl receives citizenship.)

Russians who immigrate never give up their Russian citizen. They can return easily at any time they like. Leaving a foreign husband is easy, just hop on a plane with all she can take. No need for paperwork or forms. You aren't married in Russia, why worry about a divorce? Advice? Marry in Russia first. It's also easier for getting her into your country.

Why not choose sexy young woman :
Here is married life in Russia. Girls get married young, stay married for 5-8 years, then get divorced, then find someone to settle down with for life. My advice? Girls younger than 22 are not serious and not ready for the kind of long-term relationship that you are looking for. Older than 22's are a much better idea and divorcees are the best option for a deep, stable, meaningful relationship.

Any problem with scammer, visit IFCC ( Internet fraud complain center ) at http://www.ifccfbi.gov/index.asp ( only for American man )

And scam from "FSU woman" are not always from where we think :

American Scammer Gets 5 Years!
June 24, 2004

A San Bernardino County man was sentenced to five years in federal prison yesterday for cheating men out of more than $1 million in a Russian bride scam.
The sentence was imposed from an April plea bargain in which Robert McCoy, 40, of Rancho Cucamonga admitted defrauding more than 250 men and agreed to pay back his victims $737,521. Prosecutors dropped other charges. Investigators positively identified 352 victims, but there may be more, said San Diego-based federal prosecutor Richard Cheng.
Anna Grountovaia, 32, McCoy's wife and the mother of his 2-year-old daughter, was sentenced to three years probation after having served 11 months in jail. Grountovaia, a Russian who met McCoy through the Internet before moving into his home, said she posed as a prospective bride in telephone calls with some of the victims, including several San Diego men. She pleaded guilty to fraud and may be deported. She met him after the scam was already under way and didn't play a big part in the scam, filling in when he needed a woman with a Russian accent, her lawyer said.
Most of the victims spoke with women in Russia, lawyer Timothy Scott said in court papers.
McCoy is a drug-addicted felon who sports gang tattoos and has earlier convictions on assault, kidnapping and weapons charges, according to court papers.
In court filings, prosecutor Cheng detailed the scheme this way:
McCoy met his victims through personal ads he placed or answered on Web sites including America Online and Match.com.In each case, he wrote e-mails posing as a Russian woman seeking love and sent pictures of a pretty model.Eventually, a visit would be arranged, and the victim was told a Russian dating service needed about $1,800 to pay for a visa and plane tickets. On the day the victim was expecting the woman to arrive, McCoy would write as an official from the fictitious dating service and said there was a problem: A new regulation required the woman to carry $1,500 cash to enter the United States.The service would lend her $500, but the victim needed to wire an additional $1,000.The men learned they were taken days later, when their e-mails were ignored or bounced back because the accounts were closed.
The FBI began investigating the scam after a Baltimore man told a London newspaper about the scheme.
McCoy regrets what he did and plans to use his prison time to get off drugs, said his lawyer, Arthur Greenspan, who blamed the drug addiction as a big reason for McCoy's behavior.

[Dan]

... in response to And more from man living in russia, posted by Bruno Thoumsin on Jan 21, 2005

There is NO WAY this idiot has any valid statistics to support his claims that "The divorce rate is 70%. (After the girl receives citizenship.)"

This is an example of someone playing the OTHER side of the scammer angle to feather his own bed. His obvious abjective is to paint the entire industry as corrupt - and himself as the lone broker of honest agencies.

Note that 'Jim' doesn't bother to say a single word about himself, or why he is bothering to develop such an extensive network of "Gold," "Grey," and "Black" lists of agencies.

My guess - he is some geek that got in WAY over his head, got burned out of his own ignorance or stupidity, and is now on a mission to right the wrongs of HIS past - without considering what HE contributed to it.

Look - the scamming problem is vastly overblown. Sure there are scammers in the FSU. Sure a person ought to be vigilant to the possibilities. Sure a person should approach a suspected scammer with trepidation. But for someone to focus so much attention on avoiding the scam - means (to me, at least) their priorities are in all the wrong places.

Follow a few simple guidelines - not so different from the guidelines you would follow in dating a woman here is the US. If it appears rushed - slow down. If the talk is all about money - address it directly with her, and if she goes away, great - move on to the next one. If you absolutely, positively KNOW that someone is out to scam you - either cut it off, or enjoy the ride. Believe it or not, it can be fun.

But enough of this paranoia! Either embrace the process or get out.

Kind of like going scuba diving. Sure there are sharks out there. Sure they can maim, and even kill you, if you let them. So don't let them! It's really not that difficult.

FWIW

- Dan

[LP]

... in response to What a Pile of BS!, posted by Dan on Jan 21, 2005

[This message has been edited by LP]

...and I claimed in a post below you were eloquent

I've dealt with this guy Jim. He runs a scammer website. I've chased a few scammers in my time too. It can be, as you say, fun. It can also be emotionally exhausting and can turn you off to the entire endeavor even when you know you'll be dealing with scammers. As I recall Jim lives in Russia and is indeed biased but some of what he says (about marrying kids) is simply common sense. I was going to offer comment about him but I won't. I think Jack knows him though and might have something to offer in line with my feelings.

*edited*....until I again find the data and links mentioned to support my claims.

[Patrick]

... in response to What a Pile of BS!, posted by Dan on Jan 21, 2005

A site dedicated to exposing unethical anti-scam sites!  It's gotta be coming.

I agree about scams being easy to avoid, but don't underestimate the stupidity of the general public.  There's a sucker born every 3.2 seconds.  The key for these guys is to avoid scams is to not get into the whole foreign wife thing in the first place (which is the service LP provides to the forum).  Men without good judgment are shark bait and anti-scam sites are only going to encourage these idiots to continue chumming.

How to avoid scams 101.  As described on http://www.planet-love.com/scams.php :

Don't send money

Three words.  Seems pretty simple.  If anyone wants to expand on that, perhaps we can inflate it to six or seven words to go in depth.

[Bruno Thoumsin]

... in response to Anti-anti-scam site?, posted by Patrick on Jan 21, 2005

In our modern world, everybody go to school and have some education... the general public is not stupid but lazy...

It is need maximum 5 minutes for control e-mail but these 5 minutes are too much... it is more easy to pay a investigator from a anti-scam site... and i am not sure that the result are accurate...

In French, we have a proverb :" Aide toi et le ciel t'aidera "... Help yourself and the old guy with a white beard in the cloud ( God ) can maybe help you...

When i see the log of my server, i have some surprise... in december, i have 440 unique IP ( visitor )...

Around 8 visitor ( woman ) have read the russian page about scammer ( man scammer exist )
Around 2 visitor ( man ) have read the english page about scammer, gold digger, and red flag.

FSU woman read advice... man spring direct on catalogue and write to woman... too much lazy for use time for read something...

Yes, like have say Dan, i need to update some of my advice but why i go make a lot of work when nobody take the time to read it...

And about send money, i agree but don't ask to the woman to write you more often... if she write you one time week, it is because she have the money for it... but if you wish a letter each day, be ready to help...

[LP]

... in response to Anti-anti-scam site?, posted by Patrick on Jan 21, 2005

[This message has been edited by LP]


...make me out to be the boogyman

Just to clarify, I have nothing against finding a foreign wife (although the thought of spending my life with any one woman does kind of creep me out). My problem is with some of the bizzare motivations behind it and also with the "organized" nature of the agency business...and it *is* a business because money changes hands. It may be less than criminal but when dealing with impoverished counties it's still trafficking in women for dubious reasons, at least in my opinion.

Meeting a future foreign mate on vacation, while in military service, or while she is visiting your country is one thing. Engaging in a search for one in underdeveloped or impoverished nations using businesses solely devoted to that task offering women whose intentions are often questionable is another.

To those who get scammed, have their hearts broken, or end up in strange country with an even stranger man I say boo-hoo. You were warned but ignored it, try looking in the mirror longer next time. To those who're well adjusted and enter this with rational motivations while exercising caution, self control, introspection and patience, I say good luck.

[Bruno Thoumsin]

... in response to Oh sure...., posted by LP on Jan 22, 2005

We make all these agency... without client, no agency... western man dream of russian woman... like they have dream of asian woman before...

Why we search FSU woman... because we are man... and i think that JP know what is a real man ( a little macho, the master of house, Kasanova, ... ).

Our modern woman can be beautiful but they become like us... they dominate. And man don't really like this...

I have find a article in the Pravda who explain why we search russian wife... and marriage agency make money from this... and we use agency because it is easy... but if you have time, take your holiday in russia and you will find woman without problem... myself, i have know several women in Moscow, only go out in disco and say that i come from France ( they don't know Belgium, a country big like a texan garden :-) ... i have not marry one of these women because i was young and wish enjoy the life... no, it is a other story...

For the original article, visit :
http://news.pravda.ru/society/2003/12/10/58437.html
http://society.pravda.ru/society/2003/8/81/324/10120_russianwifes.html

For more article in English :
http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/359/

And for a bad translation :

Article1

Mystery of Russian females' attraction revealed

All the world is mad about Russian women. Western men dream of Russian wives. They fall for their English, French, Austrian girls but want to marry a mysterious Russian one. So what this mystery is?

There is a saying in America: "Heaven is: American salary, Russian wife, English house and Chinese food. A Chinese house, English food, American wife and Russian salary is hell"

Russian women can compete in popularity with Russian vodka only. Foreigners spend heaps of time and money, risking to become victims of so widespread thieves, but still come here to meet Russian girlfriends they only saw on pictures.

Large pants, old sweater, messy hair and shapeless body - it"s an image of modern western woman today. They have much more interest in career and social work than in family life. But men feel it is not right, and start their worldwide search for the right.

An attractive, feminine, clever and charming girl"s image is still in hearts of many men. They want to build a family, find a devoted and faithful wife. These qualities distinguish Russian females. They have a universal tolerance.

Most of men seeking Russian wives are over 30. Divorced with kids do not really dominate. They usually quick to inform future girlfriends they are reasonably wealthy, sending pictures of houses and cars. But often they can in fact be unemployed losers, who could have never found such a wit, beautiful girl in his circles. There are no truly reach people between them.

Russian women say: "we", "us", "ours". Western females speak: "I", "me", "mine". They care only of themselves.

As one man said: "It is easier to teach English to a Russian woman than teach a western one to be a good wife".

Article2

Americans Marry Russian Women. What For?

American men use Russian women for self-affirmation. The latter seem to be liking this fact
Marriages between Russian women and American men are very successful and harmonious, Olga Makhovskaya, the senior research assistant at the Psychology Institute in Russia's Academy of Sciences says. When an American man switches from the model of American family where husband and wife are partners equal in rights to the model of an Orthodox family, he thus raises his own significance. In Orthodox families men are given more authority and are more respected. It is certainly an advantage for a man and raises his social and psychological status. In a word, American men seem to have tired of the feminism propagated by American women, and it is frequent that they seek Russian women to start families.

Russian wives in America give up the traditional model of the Russian Orthodox family which relieves them of a heavy burden of responsibility and gives a chance to have a normal life in a family where the range of responsibilities is more definite for them: children, family affairs and housekeeping. At that, Russian women enjoy more attention and support from husbands.

As psychologists say, now Russian men undervalue the essence of family. The whole of the burden, housekeeping, upbringing of children, earning of money are shifted onto women. And, at the time when Russian women have so much responsibilities, their husbands spend their time dozing in front of TV sets in desperate attempts to find out the meaning of life and to understand the truth of the universe. They merely disregard everyday problems that are essential for their families as they consider the above mentioned idle thinking to be of higher importance.  

That is why, as Olga Makhovskaya thinks relations in families between Russian and American partners are more harmonious. Each party gets what it wants to have. Husbands get authority and status, and wives are given, in exchange, peace in family and well-being. "Families of this kind where husbands are Americans and women are Russians prove to be long-living, as the roles in the family are clearly distributed and the mechanism operates good, although these are mixed families. In such families each of the couple is ready to make concessions and on the whole, wonderfully performs the role."  

In addition, as researches held by Olga Makhovskaya reveal, marriages between Chinese men and Russian women are also very successful. ?There are tens of thousands of such marriages in Russia's Primorye region in the Far East. Chinese men are hard-working, they don't abuse in alcohol drinking and bring their wages home. In a word, they have lots of advantages by contrast with Russian men." It is sad, but the researches don't mention for whom Russian men suit wonderfully.  

Olga Blagodarova
The Tatarstan Izvestia newspaper

[Bruno Thoumsin]

... in response to What a Pile of BS!, posted by Dan on Jan 21, 2005

Really, scammer are a problem... but a lot of people think scammer and money... people who place false ads for fun are scammer...

Actually, i have around 60% of man who post a ads lie about the geographic location and only 20% of woman who post a ads... and several of these false ads are not from FSU but Turkey, Europe, America, and Argentine...

And since now, i have only one scammer from Russia, she have send a false passport...

When i say that scammer are real problem, it is for site like me, online agency without office in FSU... all the free personals know the same problem...

And don't need to be parano... simple method can be used for detect these false ads... read the header from the e-mail you receive...

Last week, i have help a man from finland. Not a man who use my site, but he was victim from a scammer i know... i was myself victim from her before... ( a italian and a amrican too )... He know me via a other forum... he write me some day ago :

"Thank you again for your letter of last week. The information you have sent me has helped me in tracking E-mails. Before this I have just been a passive user of intenet and e-mail  -  knowing only how to read, write and send e-mails. Bbut now I have some skills in analyzing the sender information. You really have helped me a lot.
I do not find words to thank enough of your help. I can just say: "Thank you very much". Kari"

I don't know if some people wish to know how read header from e-mail... but if someone have interest, i can post a explain... i will be certainly better for this that for my other post... informatica is my university study and previous work in Navy...

And big agency make herself scammer... below, i copy a section that Galina have receive when she have wish remove her ads from a agency :

" Remember, we are always looking for beautiful women to join our club, if you have any friends or relatives that may be interested please tell them to register at www.---.com/girls or contact me at ---@---.com/ . Not only is
it good for them, but we will pay you up to $20.00 for each girl you refer to us."

Propose 20$ for place a ads... when you know the middle income in russia... it can be a very good business for both... the agency need to sell two time the ads and after only earn more money... and the russian scammer can earn 20$ by girl he place... and the ads are posted online without any control from the agency...

About the rate of divorce, i don't know from where come the stat... but for usual marriage, i know the stat for belgium man married with belgium woman... and the rate is around 70% after 5 year... in all the world, the divorce rate is high... it is not a speciality from FSU...

And at last, i like you Dan... with you, i learn a lot... this allow me to help better my visitor... i don't always agree with you for all but your post are not arrogant like some other... you give info... of correct bad one

[tim360z]

... in response to What a Pile of BS!, posted by Dan on Jan 21, 2005

This slop is getting pretty deep.  Bruno-boy needs a job methinks too...spending too much time typin' away un de entertnit.  Awlday & awl de nitey. Men lik 'im shoulda be'a tendin' ta hiz nu wifey, nut spenden awl de timez un de PL enternut.  Muybey he gotz an aegendey???  

'Tinkin' now dat dat dere LP'z nailed dis Bruno Belgique correct.  Sumfin' don't smell quitey ritey?

[Dan]

... in response to Gotta Agree, posted by tim360z on Jan 21, 2005

It was the 'Jim' character he was quoting - and the site that 'Jim' put up which is chock full of crap.

Just to be clear.

- Dan

[Bruno Thoumsin]

... in response to My Problem was NOT With Bruno . . ., posted by Dan on Jan 21, 2005

Thank you...

Jim is maybe not perfect but the other anti-scam agency that i have find on the internet are more bad.

And some honest woman are too much fast put on black list...by example :

- a woman write one time week from internet club to man
- the man ask if she can write more often
- she reply that she have not enough money for this but if the man can help financially, it is possible
- the man say that she is a scammer because she ask money

Internet in russia is a expensive game, around 2$ hour in internet club... if the man wish that the woman write each day, it can begin very expensive for the woman : one hour each day, give 60$ month... who can give the half of her monthly income for write to a man...

Try to understand the life in russia before ask something and if yourself ask more, be ready to pay for this...

For christmas, i have send a package to Galina ( a post card and chocalate )... and she have send me only a post card because it was too much expensive for send a package... the post-expense was more expensive that what was inside the package !!!

Now about LP, he is arrogant, sometime he have right but the method used for say it is not good... And if people on these forum don't like actieve newcomer, it is not a problem, i can go away and stop make post on the forum...

And why these LP or Tim who have no contact e-mail, a profil almost empty... maybe they have something to hide... myself, i have nothing to hide, i have fear nothing... your can write at my personal e-mail address at bruno.thoumsin@telenet.be of take a look on my passport at http://www.love-from-russia.be/pics/bruno_int_pass.jpg . And when these LP say that i lie because i say that i don't make money with my site... it is because he have never visit the site... and speak about something he don't know... maybe it is because himself cannot make something for free...

[LP]

... in response to Thank ... and about Jim, LP, ..., posted by Bruno Thoumsin on Jan 21, 2005

[This message has been edited by LP]

...I have visited your site. What do you think, I'm too lazy to make the effort? I also know a lot about this Jim fellow, more than you I suspect. I can't do anything for free? It's you who don't know what you're talking about. I put aside nearly a year of my life just to hound scammers. Yes, it was fun at times but it was also emotionally exhausting. I also do free things outside MOB in association with my job, like visiting kids in hospitals and schools. What profit do you suppose I make doing those things?

And I've got nothing to hide, most here know about me. Do I have to tell my life story to every new schumck that comes along? If you want to harrass me off board feel free to do so: (email deleted) dot com. Read it again: that's jetjock, not jetcock. (As amusing as some find that I'm tired of people getting it wrong). You'll find I'm not easy prey.

I sense you have something to contribute here as long as you learn to express yourself more clearly and grow a thicker skin. I also sense a simple (by that I don't mean stupid) man with a big heart who has learned from his mistakes. *You* need to accept I can be rough at times but there is seldom any malice intended.

In reference to your comments below: I understand about playing internet games with women, more so than you think. But we're manly men doing manly things (lol) and nothing said here is worth getting worked up over. As a former naval guy I'm sure you understand hosing down the decks with testosterone is a normal but otherwise futile exercise. That said, I've been more understanding than usual and I expect you to stop bashing me, lest I open up a real can of arrogant on you.

[Bruno Thoumsin]

... in response to Re: Thank ... and about Jim, LP, ..., posted by LP on Jan 21, 2005

JP , when i have type the message, i have not already read the other from you more below on other topic... and when you have type these, you have certainly not read the reply...

I read the forum from the top to below and i reply first to these at the top... and i think that you make the same...

Ok, you have visit the site... have you find a place where i ask money for something ?

Last month, a american man have propose send me 50$ for the advice i have give him previously and i have refuse... i will not and i cannot accept money.

Like you, i make free things... not only my site... by example, these Saturday, i work free at the biblioteek of city... in summer, i help free for the arboretum of university... the only problem is that you have almost say that i lie when i write that my site is free...

Don't worry for your e-mail box, i go use it only if you agree... and when i will be need to send you something that i cannot post on the forum like PDF document, photo, ... i don't know where can lead our dialogue...

And about tell your life to each newcomer, i don't ask this... but you must agree that your profile on these forum is enough empty... what can think a newcomer who don't know you !!!

About contribute to these forum, i think that everybody can bring something... and about express myself more clearly, i go try... my mother language is French, my second is Dutch... at last, my english is not so bad for someone who have never learn english at school...

When i was in Navy, i have game with woman, i was young... now, i know that i was wrong... i am not more the macho... each year, my skin become thicker with some kilo more... difficult to stay a macho man...

And i don't wish bashing you... but you are onre of these who make the more post on the forum... and sometime, your speak about contreversial topic... i have begin read the archive and i can say that you are very actief... sometime reactif... yes, you are rough... with time, it will be no problem... but it is a hard welcome for a newcomer...

And at last, about Jim... i have not specialy good contact with him... first, i have refuse to be listed on his site... and when i have track deeply the origin of his e-mail, i think he was not really happy. I don't like him specialy very much but the other are more bad...

[LP]

... in response to Ok, the war is finish, posted by Bruno Thoumsin on Jan 21, 2005

[This message has been edited by LP]


...only a difference of opinion. Your English is darn good considering you have no formal training, as you can see from my reply to you below it's better than my French. Remember, most of us here speak fluent American, a language that confounds the best English speakers out there. It even confounds me at times, although not nearly as much as Russian.

My activity here varies depending on my work schedule. I'm gone for days or even weeks at a time (lol, much to the relief of some). And even when I'm around I'm often too busy shaking my head to type a reply

When I said you need to have thick skin I meant you shouldn't take things so personally. In my travels I meet all kinds of people and I can tell you the world is full of jerks. Sadly, most are Americans (Texans it seems . You need to learn how to deal with them by letting it all pass by.