cnn has a live feed link on their site

[cherokee]

www.cnn.com
if you can't figure it out!

[wsbill]

... in response to cnn has a live feed link on their site, posted by cherokee on Nov 24, 2004

KIEV (Reuters) - Ukraine's highest court on Thursday blocked the inauguration of Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovich as president, and agreed to examine a complaint by his liberal challenger that the election had been rigged.

[david hagar]

... in response to Re: High Courts ruling.., posted by wsbill on Nov 25, 2004

It just amazing to me at what is going on in this country.

Beattledog

[tim360z]

... in response to Re: Re: High Courts ruling.., posted by david hagar on Nov 25, 2004

It is interesting how events are unfolding in Ukraine.  It is a magical moment for a people who have always been under the yoke of a totalitarian regieme.  I don't know if this time they will succeed,  but...in a short time they will.  This moment in time is very special and it will not be forgotten in the collective memory.  This spirit will not die,  for now they can see what is possible.  

To me their Supreme Courts decision was a bit of a surprise as I did expect the obligatory Kuchma rubber stamp and yet...this did not happen.  And yet,  we still don't know how this will play out in the very short term.  There is much at work within Ukraine as well as outside pressures from the Kremlin and the West.  

This is Russia's last historical vassal state,  they don't want to let go,  but there are consequences.  The days of calling out the tanks and soldiers (Hungary) are over,  a relic from the Cold War.  Yet so much has the world changed and that path is closed.

I wish the Ukrainian people the best.  And sooner or later the Kuchma/Putin gang will be but a bad memory.

[LP]

... in response to Re: Re: High Courts ruling.., posted by david hagar on Nov 25, 2004

...it borders on the incomprehensible. The Ukraine stuff is interesting too...

[wsbill]

... in response to Re: Re: High Courts ruling.., posted by david hagar on Nov 25, 2004

Everybody chowing down on Turkey, Dressing and Crandberry sauce.  I'm full as a tick. (that's southern as in full).

[LP]

... in response to Re: What is going on in this country, posted by wsbill on Nov 25, 2004

[This message has been edited by LP]


...Nah, I'd better not. I'd just get my pee-pee whacked...

[LP]

... in response to cnn has a live feed link on their site, posted by cherokee on Nov 24, 2004

Not to take sides on this thing but I find it interesting at least some of the international organizations who observed have issued reports stating this election, while flawed in places, should be deemed legitimate. And that said flaws were not enough to alter the results. There also seems to be a well defined process in place for appealing this thing and that Yushchenko is simply refusing to deal with it. In fact, the main observing organization had this to say:

"CIS observers registered no statements from presidential candidate Yushchenko or his team members on their readiness to accept a potential victory for their opponent. In contrast, the entire election campaign conducted by the Yushchenko team was based on a strategy of non-acceptance of voting results in case he lost".

Remember, these are supposed to be unbiased observations. There are some interesting statements made in these reports, especially the first one:

http://www.ukrnow.com/content/view/1991/2/

http://www.ukrnow.com/content/view/1994/2/

[cherokee]

... in response to Re: cnn has a live feed link on their si..., posted by LP on Nov 24, 2004

If they would just offer to investigate the allegations of fraud I think it would satisfy many, but the "winner"  and outgoing regime are refusing even to investigate. This IMO violates the definition of democracy and if allowed to proceed it undermines freedom (as we know it). Hey if the guy won he won, but at least agree to investigate/recount. They are admitting their guilt by not, in my opinion . Of course its just my opinion.

Kuchma so far has been on the down low, trying to wear them out. I wonder what his plan is? Hide and hope for sub freezing temps?

[wsbill]

... in response to Putin vs. Bush, ahh back to the good ole..., posted by cherokee on Nov 25, 2004

They were using invisible ink in some of the villiages.

I think your right the people have spoken and will stand out in the cold to give their government a real visual message which won't fade away for anytime to come.

[wsbill]

... in response to Re: cnn has a live feed link on their si..., posted by LP on Nov 24, 2004

[This message has been edited by wsbill]

Using one electronic "type" voting machine borrowed from a state in the US.

That way the process would be completely fair and just and the only headache would be the absentee votes.

Course, that would take the steam out of a revolt, but a declared winner would be easy to spot.

If no revote, Kuchma days will be numbered.

I'm actually looking for to a seige at the palace.  Would this result in chaos across the country - hardly.  

---
Why is it that ?

Strange isn't it.  In western ukraine their pro-kuchuma pick and in east their pro-democratic.

[LP]

... in response to Re: Their should be RE-VOTE, posted by wsbill on Nov 25, 2004

...You been cleaning your still again?

1) Electronic voting machines? Completely fair? There were massive problems with them during our own fiasco. Borrow them from a state in the US? Lol, which state would that be? Florida?

2) Kuchma's days are numbered no matter what. Thats why they had the election in the first place. Although there are now calls being made for him to remain in place longer than he should have until this is settled.

3) Western Ukraine is pro-Kuchma pick? Are you related to Douglas Corrigan? Stand facing the Pacific on a heading of 270, that might help

I agree on one thing: It's all being overblown. We're talking about pockets of a few thousand people scattered about the country, many of whom are idealistic youths. Unless they all gather in a few places they're just blowing smoke. Not much is gonna happen in the way of real violence and if anything changes at all it'll be because of Ukraine's legal system and pressure from abroad. Nullifying the election and doing it again is a pipe dream. I doubt that'll happen because there is already a legal procedure in place to resolve this kind of thing.

Yush still strikes me having unreasonable demands and he's unwilling to wait for a solution the rule of law provides. He's simply stirring the pot and it can only serve to hurt the country. Having said that I don't believe the country is on the verge of collapse or civil war. It's all huff and puff. I'll bet the vast majority of Ukrainians on both sides realize what happens either way will change their own lives very little and are resigned to accepting whomever emerges from the dust, even if it's the bad guy...the same as we did.

[AllenB]

... in response to Uh Bill...., posted by LP on Nov 25, 2004

It is obvious you are disappointed that Kerry/Edwards lost the U.S. Presidential election but that is in the past and I think you can finally let that one go.

Regarding the Ukraine situation I think you are being rather flippant because perhaps you don't know the situation entirely or care because you live in the safety of the United States.

Victor Yunakovich is a two time jail bird for corruption and intimidation.  He lives in the Donetsk oblast which has strong ties to Russia because most are ethnic russians that were originally moved there by Stalin after WWII to begin "cleansing" Ukraine.  The majority of the population of the Donetsk and Lughansk oblasti where Yunakovich is from are minors and metal workers, who most don't have a high school education, and work for the oligarchs who pay them an average of $150/month.  OSCE, EU and the US including many CIS countries have declared the elections fraudulent.

I know this election was a fraud!  My brother-in-law works for a steel mill owned by one of the oligarchs and he along with his fellow workers were required to turn in their "absentee ballots" to thier director (boss) who in turn placed all of those ballots for Yunakovich.  Fair? Reasonable? Democratic?

90% of my family on both my wife and my side live in Europe.  We visit them often but are always happy to return to the safety and comfort of the United States.  For those who say it's no big deal or this is the way it always will be I say get out of this country and live where you fear for your life if you speak out against somebody with more money with you.  Until you do that don't whine about American politics.  100% of the people can never be satisfied but at least 100% in the U.S. can speak their minds without fear of being hung from a tree in the middle of some woods in Belorussia.

Kerry/Edwards...with these guys so full of $&*# you need two Johns!

[wsbill]

... in response to What planet are you from?, posted by AllenB on Nov 26, 2004

I read the headlines in Moscow, Vladvostok and St. Petersburg.  Somebody is always in a bad car accident or their cars were blown up.  It's still the wild west over there, no question about that.

[TimInUkraine]

... in response to What planet are you from?, posted by AllenB on Nov 26, 2004

Was the election fraudulent? Of course. But Yushenka's people got up to a lot of dirty tricks in Western Ukraine, also.......

Let's set the record straight. While I don't particularly care for Yanukovich, his prison sentences were in the 1970s for theft and aggravated assault--not corruption. Is he in bed with the oligarchs? Yes, as comfy as the GW crew are in bed with Haliburton, Enron, etc. Does Yanukovich only really care about his super rich cronies? Absolutely (sounds like someone else we know), but Yushenka is not the idealistic Robin Hood type character that the Western media portrays him as.

I don't understand your comment about returning from Europe to the safety and comfort of the US. Where in the heck are you visiting? You've got more chance of being murdered in Witchita Kansas than in all of Northern Ireland. And hailing from Chicago, you have Gary, Indiana, the murder capital of the world, on your doorstep. Granted, they will kill you for your car or your wallet and not because you voted for Ralph Nader........

I live here. I don't see anybody afraid to speak their mind. I was on the micro bus the other day and was treated to the most animated, heated argument about the elections I have ever seen, with half the bus supporting Yushenka and the other half supporting Yanukovich. The same thing in the schools, on the TV, in the cafes. Even in Kherson, there are throngs of people outside the main government building, despite the fact that many SBU officers are there watching and taking photos. Many of the businesses are displaying pro-Yushenka signs and/or orange ribbons. So much for being afraid of getting hanged--they're not even afraid of an audit by the Yanukovich-controlled tax police.

Did I understand your last statement correctly--you're telling people not to complain about US politics because people are able to speak their mind? Now that's some good ol' fashioned Ukrainian logic.