Russian troops in Kiev?

[Jack]

29-11-2004 16:28 Maidan-INFORM
Russian units of special forces are in Ukraine for a week

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First units of Russian special forces were transfered to Ukraine on November, 23, as Russian newspaper "Kommersant" informs referring to own sources.

Flying control officers of one of Kiev aeroport on the assumption of anonymity informed "Kommersant", that first aeroplane with Russian soldiers onboard asked for permission for transit flight over Kiev November, 23 at 1:32 at night.

It supposed to be military transport aeroplane An-26 with hull No RA-26410.

Another one aeroplane passed over Kiev two hours later, at 3:17. this time it was Ukrainian Il-76.

Both planes landed at Gostomel aeroport near town Irpin'.

Local specialists confirm that soldiers of Russian unit of special forces "Vityaz" were supplied by the planes. The soldiers were arranged at Irpin' base of "Bars" unit of Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine and dressed into uniform of Ukrainian militia. The soldiers were driven to Kiev around 22:00 by buses.

Tracks of Russian soldiers appeared in Boryspil aeroport on November, 24.

Deputy chief of aircraft brigade colonel Lyashenko reported, that aeroplanes with Russian military lended there, but he refused to supply them and sent in his resignation.

Security Service of Ukraine reported that colonel Lyashenko did really send in his resignation, but "there are no tracks of Russian units of special forces" in response to deputies' request.

At the same time the tracks were disclosed in military aerodrome Vasylkiv near Kiev.

By information of loyal Security Service of Ukraine officers, two boadrs have lended there. Every of them carried 30 soldiers of Russian units of special forces. Their task was evacuation of archives of Administration of Prezident, Security Service and Intelligence Service of Ukraine.

But nobody managed to get out the archieves from circled by demonstrants Administration of Prezident. The column was noticed by habitants of nearby houses. They phoned to oppozition.

Attempt to block the column almost was finished with tragedy - buses didn't stop driving through the people. One of demonstrants was taken with hard fracture away by ambulance car.

On November, 26, personnel of Vasilkov refused to supply taking off some military transport airplanes, on whch 800 Russian soldiers of special forces should return home.

As deputy Oleg Rybachuk informed "Kommersant", soldiers were dressed back into Russian uniform and they were waiting for flight in barracks of Vasilkov Aviation Colledge.

Journalists and oppositionist promptly arrived to aeroport, but guards didn't let them enter to the territory. Inhabitant told that an hour ago 20 covered military engines thick with people left Aviation Colledge territory.

Meanwhile Russian power departmets still disclaim this information.

So, head of press-servise of the Air Forces of Russia colonel Alexander Drobyshevskiy claimed to "Kommersant" that last week no one airplane of Russian air forses performed flight over Ukraine territory.

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[LP]

... in response to Russian troops in Kiev?, posted by Jack on Nov 29, 2004

[This message has been edited by LP]

...Listen Jack, I'm afraid we're beating heads over nothing. I keep telling you, it wasn't the exit polls I was refering to it was the offical tally. Thats what counts, exit polls mean nothing. Even the international observers stated as much.

So what if Moldova snubbed the vote? Kazakh, Kyrgyzstan, and Uzbekistan have supported it. And in case you haven't heard, four thousand people rallied Sunday in the Moldovan capital to protest the arrests of members of their own opposition. Then there is this: Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez accused the West of meddling in Ukraine, saying that "the hand of Washington is obvious" in the election crisis. "If there were elections on the moon or on Mars, America would be there, too," said Chavez. Gee, he was in Moscow when he said that. It's all geopolitical BS, nothing more.

Just to clear things up let me state my "official" position:

1) I've no doubt the election was tampered with on *both* sides. Long before this was worldwide news I was following the campaign and believe me, neither side are saints.

2) I want Yush in as much as anyone. He's the lesser of the two evils and Ukraine needs to move forward. But that doesn't mean 40% of the people can or should be ignored. To adopt an attitude of tough titties for them is wrong, just because Dubya does it doesn't mean it's a good thing. In fact most of the world thinks otherwise. Did you see why the dollar is doing so bad these days? Study up on that, we're paying for Bush in more ways than you think. Even the Russians aren't keeping dollars these days. How bad does it have to be for *them* to do that?

3) What Yush is doing is inflammatory and not in the near term best interests of his country. Making demands and inciting the youth serves no purpose. This isn't Tiananmen Square in China, the people will have another chance at some point. Maybe sonner than we think. The laternative is to tear the country apart, not justified for the gains that'll be realized. Especially for the average citizen whose everyday life won't change one bit. Yush keeps saying he wants peace but at the same time he issues ultimatums and incite people to unrest. And exactly like Ya, he is paying a cash stipend to every person in Kyiv who comes out in his support. He's a ploitician Jack, try not to lose sight of that.

4) Interference by the US is just plain wrong, this administration also seems to be ignoring the 40% (by your estimates) of Ukrainians who have the right to decide their own fate by internal means. And threatening to punish the entire country is pure BS. America's interest is, as usual, self centered and nowhere near as alturistic as we want everyone to believe. The only good part is everyone knows this except Americans.

5) I have a great admiration for the Ukrainian people, *all* of them. I doubt there are many here who've been to Ukraine for recreational reasons other than MOB as much as I. I've been going there for nearly 5 years and can do it at the drop of a hat. I've tramped through all of the east and south, including the Chorno zone three times. A year and a half ago I spent a week hiking and camping thorugh the forests of central UA. On that trip alone I could tell you stories of hospitality from complete strangers, simple folks in the middle of nowhere, that touch me to this day. I've been all over Central and Eastern UA from top to bottom dealing with eevryone from mafia types in Odesa to businessmen in Kyiv. Much of it had zero to do with MOB. I assure you, I have a great fondness for the people and country.

Having said all that it's clear to me you and many others are too emotionally involved in this to maintain 100% objectivity. Or to realize conjecture and rumor are rampant at this time. For example, the head guy of Ukraine's military forces has twice made it clear they'd never move against the people. If there were Russian troops in UA for the purpose of supressing any unrest don't you think he'd know about it? Do you think he'd be sitting quielty by? Don't buy into everything you read, at least until you have reliable second source confirmation. Even then, trust but verify. And if you can't verify, believe nothing. I mean come on, you should already know this just being a US citizen. Our media isn't exactly always free or truthful you know.

The bottom line is we agree more than we disagree. The difference is you're too slanted to one side and missing the big picture. And although I have as much hope and admiration for these people as you it doesn't germinate from the same seed, nor do I allow emotions to skew my viewpoint.

[Cold Warrior]

... in response to Russian troops in Kiev?, posted by Jack on Nov 29, 2004

I wonder if it will come to that. Can the West surivive without the East? The east might be integrated into Russia.

[Jack]

... in response to Partition?, posted by Cold Warrior on Nov 29, 2004

"and changed into Ukrainian uniforms at a Ukrainian military base "

Daily Kommersant reports Russian troops in Ukraine
Nov 29, 21:59

By PAUL MIAZGA

Kyiv Post Senior Editor

The Russian daily Kommersant published a report on Nov. 29 stating that up to 800 Russian special forces, or spetsnaz, began arriving in Kyiv early on the morning of Nov. 23 and changed into Ukrainian uniforms at a Ukrainian military base just outside the capital.

The report says that at 1:32 a.m. on Nov. 23 a Russian Antonov An-26 (serial number RA-26410) arrived at a Ukrainian military base near Irpen, located 10 km from the city center. The base is adjacent to a compound operated by the BARS government security agency, which has as many as 3,000 service personnel protecting the Presidential Administration in central Kyiv.

According to the Kommersant report, at 3:17 a.m. on Nov. 23, a second plane arrived, a Ukrainian-registered heavy lift Ilyushin Il-76.  The occupants of both the Antonov and the Ilyushin boarded buses waiting on the tarmac and were transported to the base at Irpen. Kommersant also reported that up to 800 such spetsnaz forces of the Vityaz regiment have arrived in Ukraine from Russia on Russian military transport aircraft, many also having landed at Kyiv's Boryspil International Airport from Nov. 24-26.

The location of the troops is currently unknown.

The deputy head of the Boryspil Airport security service, Lt. Colonel Lyashenko, refused to give clearance for the first of the planes to arrive from Russia on Nov. 23 and immediately tendered his resignation. The press service of the airport security service would not give the reasons for Lyashenko's resignation, but did confirm that Lyashenko had resigned his post.

The staff at another regional airport nearby also refused to give landing permission to further planes arriving on Nov. 24, but they were overruled and the planes landed, said an anonymous source within the State Security Service (SBU) on Nov. 25.

The source stated that each plane, after landing, was then loaded with sensitive documents from the Presidential Administration, the SBU and other departments before taking off again, bound for Moscow.

Officials at Boryspil airport and with the Interior Ministry have so far declined to comment on the matter. Russian Ambassador to Ukraine, Viktor Chernomyrdin, on Nov. 26 called the reports of Russian forces in Ukraine as "completely absurd and an open provocation."

[wsbill]

... in response to Russian troops in Kiev?, posted by Jack on Nov 29, 2004

Stinger missle could do in Ukraine to a Russian military tranport plane!

[Jack]

... in response to Re: Imagine what a well place, posted by wsbill on Nov 29, 2004

I know your not serious WildBill. Everyone is hoping for a peaceful solution to this. Yushchenko's people have bent over backwards to avoid any type of violence.

[wsbill]

... in response to Re: Re: Imagine what a well place, posted by Jack on Nov 29, 2004

There'd be no way to smuggle in a stinger into Ukraine.

Peaceful solution. LOL.  The name of the game is explotation of women, that sounds rather bad.  But, these kinds of events should make all those women that dissed guys in the past thinking their economy is going to get better - and it's not.  When you go the bear in town, and everybody knows it.  I'll betcha they'll be a re-vote and the Putin guy will be installed, reguardless of the results.

I don't know about you Jack, but you better wake up Oatmeal about the notion of investing money in Ukraine which is still under control of that bear.

It'd be his luck to invest his money and the next thing they'd do is re-enact nationalism or statism and all the buildings become state owned.

What someone needs to do is figure out how to improve peoples lives so that coal isn't used in any of their industries..  Take the hot air out of the bag and what do you have, a empty bag.

[romachko]

... in response to Re: Yea,,,, ha ha ha... :-), posted by wsbill on Nov 29, 2004

If things get worse, you will not have even opportunity to exploit for a while.

[Jack]

... in response to Russian troops in Kiev?, posted by Jack on Nov 29, 2004

29-11-2004 01:20 Maidan-INFORM
In Vasylkiv a Military Vehicles Column Was Stopped

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In Vasylkiv a Military Vehicles Column Was Stopped

A radio Era listener called during a live broadcast to report that near the town of Vasylkiv a military vehicles column tried to set off from a military unit zone. There were more than 24 vehicles, but few of them managed to leave the military unit zone. Inside the vehicles there were Russian speaking (maybe Crimean) servicemen (probably of special purpose forces) holding shields.

Local residents and taxi drivers blocked the column. The servicemen had to get off the vehicles and walk back to the military unit.

Source: Radio Era

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[Jack]

... in response to Re: Russian troops in Kiev?, posted by Jack on Nov 29, 2004

From the The Sunday Times - World  (Great Britian)



November 28, 2004

Russia ‘will back force’ by Ukraine president

RUSSIA has offered to back the Ukrainian government if it uses force to crush pro-democracy demonstrators who have taken control of the capital and other cities, it was claimed last night, write Askold Krushelnycky and Mark Franchetti.

A senior figure in the Ukrainian presidential administration who declined to be identified said that Boris Gryzlov, President Vladimir Putin’s personal envoy to Ukraine, had promised “diplomatic cover” against any international backlash prompted by such a move.

Details of the pledge emerged as the Ukrainian parliament yesterday declared the presidential poll to be invalid. Parliament has no legal authority to annul the results but the declaration gave a political boost to the opposition.

[wsbill]

... in response to Re: Re: Russian troops in Kiev?, posted by Jack on Nov 29, 2004

Too much.  It's like the Stocholm Syndrome, with alot of guys here.   Of course, we'd like them to progress, but not at such a clip where in which it undermines our society.