Racism in Russia

[wilmc]

NY Times article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/18/international/europe/18MOSC.html

[tfcrew]

... in response to Racism in Russia, posted by wilmc on Dec 17, 2003

There's a reason that Ruskies don't want the brothers around...once again thank Hollywood for this.
Also they watch "Cops" there too.
The dude can always  go back to where he came from.
What concerns me the most is anti-semitism. Now these are Russian born citizens there.

Karl

[Robert D]

... in response to Re: Racism in Russia, posted by tfcrew on Dec 18, 2003

Well, I was only there one week three years ago and have not been back since.   Stayed in St Pete, did not ride the metro, and for some reason my friend did not want to.  I am African American, and frankly only had one or two strange looks, but nothing more.   I did not feel out of place and frankly safer than I feel in some southern towns, small ones anyway.    On the other hand, I am 6 feet 240 pounds and I am told have an aggressive posture, though I would not know about that.  I did not feel any racism while there, people were nice, by russian standards, which after you get use to people not smiling is fine.   People in the hotels were very very nice, women were plesant, even the ones I met on the street, men were distant though some in the pubs were rather talkative, taxi drivers were nice and helpful, in short I didn't feel any different than I felt in other european cities.  I have heard of tourist getting mugged, but never had that concern there, though I did not wonder off into neighborhoods except once after visiting a shopping area and could not find a taxi and walked about 25 blocks through several neighborhoods.  I was never called names, though I have been called names in my own country.  I have seen skin heads here, don't fear them or anyone, so that they may have them there is no suprise to me.  I hope to visit again and experience more of the history there again someday, not anytime soon.  But I have no reason to fear Russia from my own experience.

Robert D.

[RickM]

... in response to Re: my perspective, posted by Robert D on Dec 19, 2003

truelly understand what it means or is like to have black race amongst them (Russians are certainly not all white and certainly have many different ethnics mixed inside their culture like Asians,Tatars',Kyggyz,Kazaks etc....)Most of the real estate Russia lost after Perestroika 1991 excluding Ukraine,was mostly Muslim compared to the remainder of Russia which has a very high Christian Orthodox population...

and all they know (very,very little...) about the USA's  history of the black race's existence here(the "iron curtain days are not so long ago in Russia and they certinly were not studying "American" history in school there inside Russia...)is the terrible days about when slavery existed here in the USA...Probably from the past 12 or 15 years of very little tv that has been "allowed' to be broadcast since perestroika..Do you think russian goverment "want's" it's people to think USA is a good and great country of people???...

Thanks Robert D....Your statement to me has much validity...
So you may know and understand me,I'm a white man who grew up in a city of about 80,000 with about 3 black families when I was a child,all of whom I had the pleasure of playing with,attending boy's clubs,school,sports etc....
My own parents couldn't understand it how my best childhood friends included black children...(pretty sick huh?...)
We all are from Massachusetts...

Today,my city has probably 1000 black familys.
I'm and always have been a very big guy also so I understand your statements there.
Certainly...Respect is earned through fear.People need think twice about messing with us big guys...
It's "common sense" here to "some" but Russians could never understand the "soul" of most black people...(Most here in USA that never grew up with black familys probably think "soul" means a fro,black music groups or something stupid like that...)

The "only" reason I'm alive today as a survivor of Viet Nam is because of the courage,savy street-smarts and "soul" the black brothers fighting beside me posessed...
(It's my sincere opinion...)Even back then,the petty bull of predjutice was so thick it was beyond logic so far away from home amongst a large group of very young men trying to exist and live another day as a common army...

Well,the reason I wrote this "reply" is to share a Russian's logic about what most think about black people(from "MY" view point and experiences)...I'm married to a Russian Woman and have been to Russia 4 times now about a month each time....
Probably 90% of Russians don't know "what" to think about black people other than they probaly came from Africa..."But",if it is a black person from USA they associate it with the little or no history they know about USA and USA's history of the black man being present there...

My father-in-law is Armenian with a Russian passport.He's a dirt farmer,and a dam good hardworking one.It supported his family of 6 children growing up...In Russian,he calls himself a "nigger" of Russia(it really means to him a dirt farmer and a culture of a person with-out a country of his own ethnic)....I "HATE" that word "nigger"...It's demeaning by my opinion"especially" in "today's" USA vocabulary...

See...Russians see mostly "only" black people from USA there and probably a far less few from UK,India and other places like that.Most are tourists from USA...

Most Russian people "don't" know about the USA history and what black people went through here in USA not so long ago.
There in Russia,tourists are measured by their money.It don't matter what color or race you are,if they can prosper from you and your money they will treat you all the same,regardless of your nationality and color...As for a black man finding a white wife in Russia,my opinion is that it is possible but rare probably for 2 reasons...Not many black men seem to go there and not many Russian woman know anything about black people...It'd probably be more work for them than to have a person their "own" color...

[Robert D]

... in response to Re: Re: my perspective...Russian People ..., posted by RickM on Dec 20, 2003

Well that was interesting.    Just a few notes to your well written note.   You seem very open minded.   I note Albert's note and can understand what he is saying, and also know that my short time in Russia was not enough to get a complete flavor of the country.   I do have one friend there now, not a romantic interest anymore, just friends and we communicate often.  She is from a small town in Russia, and it seems she agrees with some of what Albert says.   And I do recall one thing, she did not wish to take the metro while in St. Pete, and I never asked why.  But I will also say this, she now studies english in a university, but even before that she was well aware of the history of the US on slavery, the Native Americans, and civil rights.  (and women's rights as well)  I must say she was more aware of US history than almost all Americans are about Russian History.   I only knew a bit of Russian history from my college days, and also because history and politics has been a hobby of mine for many years since college, almost to a point that I came close to becoming a policical consultant years ago.  I was impressed with her understanding of our history though sometimes it seemed rather negative.    It was also interesting to get her view that the US really did not play as large a part in the win over Germany as the US would like to believe.  Well that did lead to rather long discussion of our part in WW2.   I kept waiting for her to tell me that we never did put men on the moon and that it was all a hoax.   It was then I felt the deep distrust that may Russians have of their own government that seems to filter into their view of all governments.   (but there are many Americans who feel the same way about our government)  I must say I found it difficult to interact with Russians in St. Pete as almost none were ever in pubs or bars, or cafes, as there one would find mostly tourist.   I did, however, do something that I thought I would not do, visit a strip bar.   I was interested in what they would be like in a country with such a repressive history, not to mention the ladies seem very pretty.   What I was shocked to see was the high level of education of the women working there.  I talked to two women for about two hours there, and frankly I they were shocked to spend most of their time talking to a guy in a strip bar.  (I know it sounds odd but by then it was clear that other than my friend that had left by then, and a Russian couple I met in the hotel bar, I could not think of any other way to interact with Russians there.  Odd but it worked)  But even there I was shocked about how much they knew of US history, the number of languages they spoke, musical instruments they played.  I could not help but think that if these women were in the US, they would have found jobs and would not have taken this sort of job in the US.  (but who knows)  When I left that club and my visit to Russia, as I have almost every country I have ever visited outside the US, I was reminded of how very lucky we are to live here.

   While in Paris on one of my visits, I ran into a guy at a bar near my hotel.  He was about 28 and spoke english and was in college.   (grad school as I recall)   He began to ask questions about the US.  He said he had never been but would like to see New York and the west coast.  I asked if he would consider visiting the south.   He said, he would NEVER consider such a thing.   I got the impression that he felt that Black people were being burned or strung up daily in the south and that there was still segragation here in the south.   He said over and over, that he could not see himself in that sort of place.   Well I was shocked by his lack of knowledge of the US.   I went on to explain that I lived in the south, and yes the US has had a rather difficult past, but we made many great efforts to address our problems in the last 20 years, and though we are not perfect, (and no country is) I felt that we did a very good job of addressing very difficult problems in a positive manner.  He was stuck in the 50's and 60's as if he believed that the southern US was one big "Mississippi Burning".  I was rather insulted.   I pointed out that Paris was a very international city, but during my drives in the countryside, I did not see any evidence of any ethnic groups there.   He smiled and said, well you hit the nail on the head.   There are none, except in major cities, as they are not welcome there as they are in the city. Then he added that in France if you have money, there is never a problem what color you are.   To which I suggested that the same was true in the US, but that even in small town US, you will find members of other ethnic groups in those towns, often living with less trouble than in many urban areas.  
    I did not intend to ramble as much as I did, but the bottom line is, I am sure there is racism in Russia, as there is just about everywhere.  It is here now and will be in the future in some form or another.   It is a sad part of our being since we first discovered differences and I fear is an unfortunate  natural part of us many of us.  But as much as I have heard of how terrible Russians are regarding race, I did not experience any of it.   Perhaps I was lucky, or perhaps because I try to look to the goodness of people and thus sometimes overlook the bad parts.  Who knows.  I would however visit Russia again someday if time permits, without fear.  

Robert D.

[RickM]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: my perspective...Russian Peo..., posted by Robert D on Dec 22, 2003

near and dear to you that you love a very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.I'm feel happy and privilidges to have your acquaintance...

[Albert]

... in response to Re: my perspective, posted by Robert D on Dec 19, 2003

Robert, you may not have had any bad experiences, but as I noted below, the people in FSU  that I have talked with (and this would be over a hundred or so in both personal and business situations) definitely have bad feelings toward black persons.  On the other hand, I never heard one of these persons say anything positive or neutral about black persons.

Note, this was not a large topic of conversation, and I never brought up the subject.

I can't remember exactly, but I think they had the same feelings about orientals and hispanic persons as about blacks.  In short, they were the classic white supremists.

[Albert]

... in response to Racism in Russia, posted by wilmc on Dec 17, 2003

From my time in FSU, I can report that the people in general are very much racist.  I never got into deep discussions about it, but everytime the issue of negroes came up (TV, sports games, etc.), most everyone there reacted with disdain toward them.

[ChrisNJ]

... in response to Racism in Russia, posted by wilmc on Dec 17, 2003

n/t

[wilmc]

... in response to Try pasting it...nt, posted by ChrisNJ on Dec 18, 2003

December 18, 2003
MOSCOW JOURNAL
African Students' Harsh Lesson: Racism Is Astir in Russia
By SETH MYDANS

OSCOW, Dec. 17 — The morning starts with 100 push-ups for Constant Olivier Diboi Kath as he prepares for the most dangerous moment of his day — his subway ride to chemistry class on the other side of town.

Mr. Diboi Kath, 23, is an exchange student from Cameroon, and like many other African college students in Russia he says he feels threatened by racist thugs every time he leaves his dormitory.

He has been abused, beaten and even shot during his five years at People's Friendship University, where about one-third of the students come from developing countries.

"At any hour you must be ready to fight," he said over loud rock music in a campus cafeteria. "On the Metro, on the road, on the street, everywhere. So every morning you have to do your 100 push-ups."

Racist attacks on foreigners here — Asians, Arabs and especially blacks — have been a continuing problem whose victims have included diplomats and American Embassy Marine guards as well as students.

Last year, ambassadors from 37 African nations appealed to the Foreign Ministry for protection for their citizens. Human rights groups have documented widespread harassment, often with the compliance or support of the police.

Racist attitudes lie deep within the Russian psyche and are growing even worse now, said Aleksandr Brod, director of the Moscow Human Rights Bureau, a private group that monitors discrimination. The driving force, he said, is the proliferation of white-supremacist skinhead groups, which enjoy widespread support and are fueled by nationalist political groups and publications.

There are now some 200 nationalist publications around the country with racial overtones, he said. In parliamentary elections earlier this month, a dozen parties campaigned on extremist nationalist agendas, with considerable success.

"All this Nazi ideology gives rise to hatred of all non-Russians," Mr. Brod said. "And so, many people even think skinheads are not bandits and hooligans but Russian patriots who are fighting for the purity of Russian society."

As a result, he said, "literally every week in Moscow and in other regions of Russia there are attacks by skinheads on members of minorities," some of which, he said, are fatal.

A suspicious late-night fire that took at least 42 lives at Friendship University three weeks ago has intensified fears among minority students here. A number of them — particularly Chinese students — have cut short their studies and headed home, fellow students said.

"If there is another incident like this, we are all going to leave," said a 23-year-old student from Gabon who would give only his first name, Georges. "I just want to finish quickly and leave Russia forever, forever."

The university, which now has 12,000 students, opened as Patrice Lumumba University in 1960 to serve students from countries the Soviet Union supported in Africa, Asia and Latin America.

Although the fire is officially described as an accident, most minority students are convinced that it was arson. They say that for weeks, both before and after the fire, bomb threats forced students into the cold streets during the class day or in the middle of the night.

The fire took place in a dormitory for newly arrived foreign students, including students from Angola, China, Vietnam, Ecuador, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, Ivory Coast and Tahiti.

Survivors said the reaction of the college administration only added to their feeling that they were outcasts.

"They did not even give us one day off," said Sydney Ocran, 23, a journalism student from Liberia who videotaped the fire.

"There were students inside banging on the glass, calling for help," he said. "I took a close shot of the hands banging on the glass, and then their hands just went down the glass, sliding like that, and they were gone."

And that was that.

"They put out the fire at 4 or 5 a.m. and students went to school at 9 a.m.," Mr. Ocran said. "That is amazing to me. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I feel that they do this because most of the victims are foreigners."

At the Moscow Protestant Chaplaincy, where many African students find spiritual refuge, talking about the attacks has become a part of the service.

"Nearly every week, or every other week, someone stands up and says, `Please pray for me, I had a run-in with skinheads,' or, `Pray for my friend who was beaten by the police,' " said the pastor, John Calhoun.

Muslims can be targets as well. Last summer, a 19-year-old medical student from Malaysia was beaten at a McDonald's restaurant apparently because she was wearing a head scarf. " `Russia is for Russians,' that's their motto," said the woman, who declined to give her name. "They were just laughing, laughing. It was because of my head scarf. They didn't like me wearing this."

An attack can happen anywhere, Mr. Diboi Kath said, but some times and places are worse than others. "Like the Metro Green Line," he said. "If you want to die, you go there at 6 o'clock."

National holidays and major sports events — with their drunkenness and heightened passions — are times to stay home, many students said. Mr. Diboi Kath said that although he loved sports, he had never been to a soccer stadium or a basketball game in Moscow. "It's like a dream for me," he said. "The cinema is like a dream. If you go to the cinema or to a stadium, it means you want to die."

Mr. Ocran is a refugee who fled fighting in Liberia 13 years ago and took refuge in Ghana. From there, he won a scholarship to study in Moscow, only to find new dangers.

"The only time I feel safe is when I am in my room — at least, 60 percent safe," he said. Unlike some poorer students, though, he is able to take a break during the summers to visit his wife and sons in their refugee camp.

"When I return to Ghana, it's like I'm released from prison, like I'm a free bird," he said. "I get so happy. I am so happy when I sit on the airplane. I don't have to worry who is going to beat me."

[RickM]

... in response to Re: Try pasting it...nt, OK, posted by wilmc on Dec 18, 2003

Wow!

Didn't realize it was so bad in Moscow but I "do" remember a few things...

The fire at the dorm was big news and last year at the airport I met a few black professional basketball players that were telling me they couldn't drive 2 blocks on a main road without getting pulled over by the polica and having to pay a fine in order to be let go...

It "does" all change 8 klicks out of city perimeters and "into" heart of the motherland...

Outside the hotel and on the streets of Moscow (if alone without a native) one "does" have to be careful and keep a low profile.Moscow and St.Ptsbg. are the only 2 places I hate going to for that reason...1/2 is geared there for tourism and the other 1/2 is geared to rip em off...