PRE-NUPS

[FLASH2D]

i read in a recent post that the guy requires a pre-nup. has anyone had a problem with getting your ru/uk  wife to be to sign one? how binding would it be even if she can speak and understand excellent english? this is a relevant issue i would think.

[Globetrotter]

... in response to PRE-NUPS, posted by FLASH2D on Oct 19, 2003

Flash....yes, they are important, as it keeps her from getting half your house and other assets in case you guess wrong.  This is more important in community property states like California, Florida, Wisconsin and some others which don't recognize per-marital assets.  With lots of "legals" in my family, including a judge...anything can be challenged
so it is important to do it right.  This means...to be sure it is not signed under duress, as in a few days before the ceremony, (more like a month before) and in the case of a foreign bride, make sure hers is signed in her own language with a certified translation for you.

Some will say it is not so important.  But it doesn't matter where you marry, but where one lives at the time of filing for divorce, should that happen, which is when a "contract" becomes very important.  Also, it must be fair, such as, she should get $2000, 3, 5K for every year you are married, depending on how much you earn.  In any case, consult a lawyer in your state to have one drawn up that is bullit-proof and one that will withstand any challenge, and you should be OK.  Having one doesn't mean you don't love your squeeze, but it does seperate the love from the money should things go terribly wrong.  I would guess some who have suffered a divorce from a foreigner would have wished they had a pre-nup, as judges don't take kindly to those who "import" a wife who is so dependent on you, when things don't work out for any reason what so ever.

Good luck, and good hunting!!!

[LP]

... in response to Re: PRE-NUPS, posted by Globetrotter on Oct 20, 2003

[This message has been edited by LP]

...bass ackwards there Globe. Community property states like California do recognize premarital assets, thats what makes a community property state.

Hey, why didn't you answer me? The girls arrive in two weeks. I'll be jetting them around the West while they're here. SFO, LA, Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, Vegas, Seattle...it'll be their dream come true. They'll head back to the FSU as soon as we're through and repay me when I visit next year. And people say there's no chance for young FSU women with no assets, kids, or jobs back home to get visas. Maybe they oughta try going through different channels.

I decided to blow the "boyfriend" off. He wasn't happy but I'm providing the transportation and living arraingments so I call the shots. Of course, he completely forgets he already had her to play with as long as he did. He was clueless the entire time, another old fart suckered by a young beauty into thinking it would lead somewhere. Jeez, these chicks never cease to amaze me. He should've be grateful for what he got and let it go at that. But no, like most old guys who luck onto young stuff he couldn't tell the difference between play and love...especially from a 21 year old. Oh well, I'll just have to set her straight. At least the other one is sweet enough and at least I know the difference between playing and "happily ever after"...

For the guy asking about prenups: Get one, especially if you're in a non community property state. See a good attorney. She'll need one also and make sure there isn't a language issue and all the docs are translated. Anyone who tells you a *proper* prenup is easily defeated doesn't know the facts. Or be a romantic and blow it off, nothing can possibly go wrong. After all, bad stuff only happens to other people and your FSU Princessa isn't like anyone else...she's special.

[AJ277]

... in response to You got it..., posted by LP on Oct 20, 2003

well defining *proper* is the dilima?
and find some cases where a prenup with a spouse from the FSU held up accordingly.
If it held up, was it any different than what would have transpered without it.

your advice to see a good lawyer is of course common sense.
However-
finding a GOOD experienced lawyer not only versed but well practiced in this area ,and particularly the laws of your state-
is the challenge-
and IMHO much tougher to decern than a sincere RW from a GCG

at least from the lawyers i have spoken to-
it is certainly case specific.Every individuals answer will be different depending on thier state laws and financial circumstance-
and so you should act accordingly.

The "general " consesus of the "average case" is it isnt worth it.
The only way to know if your an "avergae case" as a couple- is to consult a GOOD attorny in this field.
Catch 22.
=0
LOL

BTW - I am married and did not have or want one -
very romantic I suppose

 marriage is for life!!
____________________________________________
I believe in boating accidents not divorce

[LP]

... in response to prenup., posted by AJ277 on Oct 21, 2003

I agree it may not be needed for the average guy in a general sense. I was projecting my situation onto his,
a common quirk of human behavior. Since I've never been cleaned out and reaching middle age I have a lot to lose.
I understand some guys are just starting out or may feel it's not worth the hassle. It's the guys with two or even three divorces (quite common among MOB men in my observation) that puzzle me when it comes to not doing one. (Or maybe repeating the same mistake over and over again never leaves one with enough assets make it worthwhile

I disagree about finding a good attorney. My profession is infamous for it's high divorce rate and asset manipulation among other attributes. Both these things involve savvy lawyers. (I see the gum'mint last week proclaimed it the third most dangerous job in America after logging and Alaskan crab fishing. Lol, I wonder if the divorce rate factors into that.)

As such I can tap lawyers who specialize in this kind of thing and all know their stuff and have successes to back it up. The fact it's an foreign woman has little bearing or so they tell me. (At least the laws in my state regarding prenups make no distictions about it.) It all comes down to preparation and proper representaion on both sides. Judges are not as free to hack up an agreement as many suppose, at least around these parts. I also agree that if the marriage fails quickly it might turn out to be a non event in the guy's favor. No one intends for their marriage to fail, every couple being marraige today swears "marriage is for life". The real truth is it's only for the life of the marriage.

The duress issue needs to be approached carefully though. Might be better to have it drawn up and reviewed by a Russian lawyer before she comes over although that could open up other problems. However, I know several Russian lawyers (all women) and they tell me prenups are becoming quite common in the FSU these days.

The bottom line is not to rush it or do it just before the marriage occurs. The argument about romance, trust, ect is moot to me. If a guy has significant assets and the woman knows it I personally feel if she balks at a prenup she should be passed over. I've said it before and I'm stickin to it: Being "crazy in love" is the worst time to get married, especially to a woman seeking a better life (which they are, don't kid yourself) and if immigration comes along with it. After all, thats why they call it crazy.

Btw, boats don't kill people...people kill people

[ChrisNJ]

... in response to You got it..., posted by LP on Oct 20, 2003

.....And people say there's no chance for young FSU women with no assets, kids, or jobs back home to get visas. Maybe they oughta try going through different channels.......

Please elaborate.

[Globetrotter]

... in response to You got it..., posted by LP on Oct 20, 2003

Yes, I get my legalistic terms mixed up sometimes.  Mark's comment about being careful as to which state you live in, I'm not sure I understand.  OK if you're going to retire, but what about a job relocation?  And, a husband doesn't determine if a girl stays or gets deported.  That's an INS function.  A pre-nup can protect "appreciation of pre-marital assets" which one might have to share without a pre-nup, even if it is not co-mingled.  But....if you have no assets, the point is moot.

Hey LP, I never heard a peep from you, or I would have answered you, and I sent you 2 emails.  Just put the subject in the email, or I may delete, not knowing who sent mail to me.

[Travis]

... in response to Re: You got it..., posted by Globetrotter on Oct 21, 2003

This really depends on the state. My ex got nothing. Not that she didn't try, but she was leagally entitled to nothing. Ok, I partially take that back. The judge awarded her 37% of my 2003 income tax return, which after I changed my W-4 the day of the final divorce should equat to nothing! I won't even file until April 2004. She wasn't given anything else, the house, alimony, nothing! Though I know all states are different and the absolute best thing to do is consult an attorney. Also, you have to consider how long you were together when you legally seperated. Mine was 3 weeks, therefore it was difficult for her to ask for anything.

A husband doesn't determine if his ex stays or is deported, but how he handles it has a bearing. Trust me, mine will get deported but to be realistic, it will take another 8 to 10 months to do. It isn't like the day after the divorce and she's gone. But she runs a huge risk. If she doesn't leave following the divorce and is found to have committed marriage fraud by the INS, she will never again receive a US visa. Her best bet would be to leave and try again, find another sucker (me being the first :-). Heck, she should, she's had practice at being a manipulitive POS and all the filing false charges and purjury. But if she fights it and is found guilty and then forcibly removed, she's done, her file stays with her for life! By the way, my ex is too stupid to just leave, she'll either fight or hide...same difference.

[LP]

... in response to Re: You got it..., posted by Globetrotter on Oct 21, 2003

...I received only one email from you and responded three times. Twice with the explanation of my predicament
and one asking why you hadn't asnwered. I used two different email addys to do it. Me thinks it's simply another case of AOL strikes again. Next time I'll be tracking the message so be aware your antivirus software may notify you of something strange.

I guess that makes you somewhat confused about my comments above, I assumed you knew what was happening. Since I didn't hear back from you I solved the issue myself in a way I thought you would agree with. The bottom line was a 54 year old guy who was outta control with a 21 year old Russka who is here visiting. He demanded some things from her that were unreasonable and her traveling companion (also a young R/W) sought my advice. In the end I cut him off from accompanying them on a visit to spend a few weeks with me on a sightseeing adventure I'd promised when they received their visas.

She wasn't innocent by any means and should've known better. Her intent was not what he thought. She was indebted to him for helping them out and when caught between a rock and a hard place she did what many young R/W women do: She used her femininity to deal with the problem and didn't stop when she should have. Russian women know it's one of the best (and one of the few) cards they have to play when they want something back home. It's why they're so damn good at doing it, especially with  older guys.

Like most dirty old men who get a taste of tender vittles he couldn't let go and began acting a little off center. My problem was deciding if it was really any of my business or not. Lord knows I also like 'em young but there's a limit. And at least I know the difference between playing and having my chain yanked. Since I deplore robbing the cradle (as well as robbing the grave) and since I was a major player in their coming here I decided it was adios for him. Guys like that make the whole business stink and the recent killing of the Ukie girl in Philly by another one of these clowns made the call easier.

Besides, I don't need to spend time in close quarters watching this guy spoil what to these young women is a dream they've had for years. They couldn't have done it without me so I decided I have the right to call the shots as I see fit. Nor do I want him in my home. I only got involved because I was in a position to make their visit happen and because someone in Russia called in a favor. I owed this guy in a big way and he's in a position to solve equally tough problems on his side of the pond. In short, I want to keep him on my good side. I hope all the hassle turns out to be worth it as this is causing some minor grief on the home front because my squeeze will be gone on business for much of the time.

[John F]

... in response to Re: PRE-NUPS, posted by Globetrotter on Oct 20, 2003

I'm a Florida resident and have been through a very nasty divorce.  Possessions owned prior to marriage were not included in the division of properties.

[Richard]

... in response to You're wrong., posted by John F on Oct 20, 2003

As I understand it, Florida is an equitable distribution state with one major exception.  The one exception is if you own a house and get married, you new spouse now own half of the house.  (This is part of the homestead act here in Florida)

Equitable distribution - you own what you had before the marriage, you spouse gets half of the appreciation in your assets unless:
1) you commingle them in a joint account
2) you move to a community property state (this is PA law and may not apply elsewhere)

Community Property - all assets are co owned by both spouses, even those assets owned individually.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, this is my understanding of the law from discussions with lawyers.

[John F]

... in response to Re: You're wrong., posted by Richard on Oct 20, 2003

All I can relate to is my personal experience.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Re: Re: You're wrong., posted by John F on Oct 20, 2003

You mean you expect your actual life experience to count for something?

Are you not paying attention?

The only thing that counts around here are: strident words, predictions of doom and gloom, and wild conjecture...

You expect ACTUAL EXPERIENCE to count? Sheesh!!!

Next you'll be suggesting that guys who have tried and failed at this shouldn't be constantly offering advice...

And that would REALLY change the complexion of the board!

[Travis]

... in response to Re: Re: You're wrong., posted by John F on Oct 20, 2003

Though all states are different, Texas is a community property state. My ex was not entitled to my house even though she tried!!! Rather her lawyer tried...scum!

Her final award in the divorce was 37% of my 2003 income tax return, which won't be filed until April 2004. Weird! I changed my W-4 that day so I'm thinking I won't get a return. With any luck she'll be deported by then. I think that was what the judge was thinking anyway.

[Richard]

... in response to My Expierience, posted by Travis on Oct 20, 2003

It is my understanding that the Homestead Act is unique to Florida.  It is this law that gives your new spouse half of your house when you are wed.  I discussed this in detail with the real estate attorney that did the settlement on my house.