Agency vs Non-Agency Girls

[Antonua]

... in response to intercepted emails , posted by Travis on May 25, 2003

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[Bobby Orr]

... in response to Re: Another method?, posted by Griffin on May 25, 2003

Try concentrating on women in the Novosibirsk region.  That region is rough and rugged compared to other parts of the FSU I have been to.  Unless a girl is from Novosibirsk city itself (which is not that big a city, anyway) they would be happy to go to a rural locale.

[BURKE89]

... in response to Re: Re: Another method?, posted by Bobby Orr on May 25, 2003

What's the elevation of Novosibirsk proper?

More regional travel notes, eh?

V.

[Bobby Orr]

... in response to Bobby..., posted by BURKE89 on May 25, 2003

There really is not much to Novosibirsk proper.  It is a big city for the FSU - I think the fourth largest (Moscow, St. Petersburg, Ekaterinberg then Novosibirsk).  No building is that tall.  There is not too much traffic compared to other big cities.  There is not too big of a mafia presence - hence not too many new black Mercedes / audis around.  There is a class of "new" Russians who control most of the business / are rich, rich, rich etc. - but not many.  It has a nice old style zoo.  The roads are in bad shape because of their severe climate (hotter than you would think in the summer and colder than you might think in the winter).  The food is ok - nothing special.  People are friendlier than other big cities I have been to in the FSU - more like a big small city.  Prices are much cheaper than other parts of Russia.  The Ob sea, a man made body of water, is where sun worshipers hang out in the summer.  There is plenty of nature around when you get out of the city proper - lots of birch forests, flowing water, small lakes etc. to have a nice atmosphere for a cookout / pitch some tents and enjoy nice surroundings (watch out for ticks though).  I spent half a day and drove all over - it sure seemed like it - over Novosibirsk proper the first time I was there to get a US contact some patches.  This girl had a patch(s) from every country she had been to and ran out of time to get one in Russia - so I made sure she got one.  I never tried any dating agencies other than writing one girl - just one letter - who gave me a blasse return letter - who I never met because my guy friends in Novosibirsk spoke to her and said she was too demanding, hence not a good woman, so I took their word for it.  There are pretty women around, like the rest of the FSU - they do have a vibrant night life with alot of bars / strip clubs etc. like the rest of the FSU.  I have been to a few - could not tell you the name or where they are located, but places like that are easy to find.  Just ask any cabbie.......

[Griffin]

... in response to Re: Re: Another method?, posted by Bobby Orr on May 25, 2003

[Jack]

... in response to Agency vs Non-Agency Girls, posted by Safari on May 24, 2003

Well, what would I recommend for guys to do with regards to seeking ladies from an agency, or not from an agency?

I think most guys would be better off finding ladies who are not listed with any agency. The reason so many guys seek ladies who are on websites or with agencies is because it is easy on them, it does not require as much work or effort.

What I discovered when I first began running my own personal ads in 1998 was like a breath of fresh air. Although not successful with the first personal ad campaign, or even the second, I saw the potential.

Over 90% of the ladies who responded to my personal ads were ladies who were not listed on the Internet, were not part of any marriage agency. With most ladies who wrote it was only a recent dream that they might marry a foreign man, that they might leave their home country.

By own dreambride who responded during my third personal ad campaign had never written to a foreign man before. Until she saw my ad in the back of a magazine in a restaurant two months after the ad had expired she had never thought she might be married to a foreign man or live in America. Is there luck involved with this great pursuit for a good Russian bride? You bet there is but we can also help to make our own luck.

These were the type ladies I was seeking.  And as I would set up meetings with these ladies who responded to my personal ads and if I did not have enough ladies to meet in Odessa or Kiev or St. Petersburg, then I would go to different marriage agencies and the internet to find other ladies to see that I might have interest in so that I did have enough ladies to see in that particular city. It was my goal to have from 6 to 8 wonderful, sincere ladies to see in each city I went too and a back-up of 4 or 5 ladies if none of the first group of ladies I saw produced anything.

There are certainly many good ladies listed with agencies today and who are part of marriage agencies. However there are many ladies who become a bit overwhelmed and jaded with all the offers they receive from men.

There are so many men writing the same ladies today that ladies are becoming very choosey about who they respond back to. Many ladies, after liking 3 or 4 men in the first 50 letters they receive, never even open the next 150 letters they received. I know this is happening as many ladies have told us this.

There are many ways to go out and find and seek these wonderful ladies who are not listed on the Internet or the larger marriage agencies. One should not disregard the smaller marriage agencies in many cities as there are some real diamonds there. Just make sure this marriage agency is not working with any of the larger companies who sponsor the socials or you will be wasting your time.

[Safari]

... in response to from an agency owner, posted by Jack on May 24, 2003

I imagine there is certainly an armchair mentality when it comes to how
many men approach this endeavor.

It sounds like many have had luck running their own ads.  I may end up
running my own at some point, but I'm not financially capable of running
the whole gamut at the moment, so for now I'll concentrate on my
second year of learning Russian until jobs in my chosen field return.

Jack, do many of your ladies receive letters from men in their
twenties, or AM who speak Russian?  Generally speaking, do either of
these factors weigh in with them, or do their opinions vary widely?

On a side note, I just met a local RW (not available) who offered to tutor
me in Russian for the summer.  She lit up like a Christmas tree when I
spoke in Russian, and she said I had almost no accent.

By jaded, do you mean they become spoiled by all the money being
flashed around, or because of insincere offers on the part of AM?

I imagine I'd try an agency, like you if I was already there and needed
more options.

Socials of any variety are out for me as a serious way of approaching
this.  I'd try one with an open mind and a raised eyebrow, but even at
the invitation-only variety, I can't imagine feeling comfortable with the
many-on-one approach getting to know a woman.  I willing to meet
more than one woman, just not at the exact same time and place.  If I
end up teaching English there while the economy recovers, I imagine I
could keep my schedule full?

For guys who have attended them: am I off here on the socials?

[Jack]

... in response to Re: from an agency owner, posted by Safari on May 26, 2003

I imagine there is certainly an armchair mentality when it comes to how
many men approach this endeavor.

......Yes Safari, for the most part you will see whatever method and procedure one used to find his bride is the method or procedure that person will usually recommend as "the best way".  Some of the guys here will have tried various means and procedures and I would suggest to newby's to maybe read into a little more what guys say who have gone about this most wonderful pursuit in more than one manner. The guy who only wovo and happily married is going to say this is the way to go. The guy who only wmvm and is happily married is going to say that is the way to go. The perspective one get's from those guys who did both the wovo and wmvw may be helpful.

Safari a lot depends on the personality of the individual man. As I have stated before there is no right way or wrong way to certain approaches for a Russian bride. With respect to the wovo or wmvm it is truly an individual thing. Some guys can't, or don't want to write more than one woman at a time. Having done both I am a firm believer that one should write a lot of ladies and narrow it down to 6 to 8 ladies in any one city that a guy visits. Some guys have a hard time with trying to see 6 ladies but wants to see more than one and if he wants to only see 3 or 4 ladies and that is what he is comfortable with that that is the best method for him. I think it is a numbers game and one should meet as many ladies as possible who have a sincere interest in them. Many 1 and 2 hours meetings, not 1 or 2 day meetings, until you have met all the ladies. Meet all 4, or 6 or 8 ladies in the first 2 to 3 days you are in the city. This is really quite easy to do if you start out right. Then after meeting all the ladies you spend quality time with the one, or two, ladies whom there was potential chemistry with. After 7, 8 days in city number one you go to city number 2 and repeat the process. Is it work to be able to do a trip like this? You bet it is but one can make it fun, exciting and quite rewarding work if one wants to.............                        

It sounds like many have had luck running their own ads. I may end up
running my own at some point, but I'm not financially capable of running
the whole gamut at the moment, so for now I'll concentrate on my
second year of learning Russian until jobs in my chosen field return.

.......Safari, no man needs to begin this pursuit until he has the financial resources set aside to do such and a somewhat reliable and stable job. You would not want to bring your Russian bride home and then lose your job soon after. Personal ads, although not quite as effective as they were a few years ago are still a very viable option. There are different types of personal ads one needs to be aware of. I prefer the personal ads where we publish a man's photo, bio and type lady he is seeking in the personal sections in local newspapers. There is the other type of personal ad that is promoted by one agency in which your photo and profile is sent to many agencies thru out Russia, Ukraine and the FSU. Guys get a good response rate but a high percentage of these are actual replies from the agency. I prefer the type personal ad where I am reaching ladies not listed on the internet or with other agencies.

I compliment you on learning some Russian. It will help to expand your search to ladies who do not speak English as well you will not have to use an interpreter when spending time with your ladies........

Jack, do many of your ladies receive letters from men in their
twenties, or AM who speak Russian?

.......Very few men in there 20's are writing ladies. Until this past group tour the youngest client I had was 27. A young man by the age of 23 went on our most recent group tour. Normally I do not wish to see ladies of 19, 20, 21 at any of our functions. With this young man attending it was nice to invite (and look at) these nice young ladies. Men who are 29 and younger have there pick of many fine young ladies, although I encourage most men to consider ladies from 22.5 and up as I consider 23 as the real age of maturity for many of these Russian ladies. Yes, there are some mature 21 and 22 year old ladies, I am only speaking from a percentage point of view. At 23, a year after graduating from most universities, many of these ladies are seriously considering marriage and can handle the move away from family, friends and country.

I would say less than 15% of all the men going to the FSU will be able to speak effective Russian.........

Generally speaking, do either of
these factors weigh in with them, or do their opinions vary widely?

......Both these factors, youth and speaking Russian will be a positive factor.....

By jaded, do you mean they become spoiled by all the money being
flashed around, or because of insincere offers on the part of AM?

.....They become jaded with all the promises and offers of nice homes, nice cars, sending money to the ladies, etc.  Even good, sincere women are sometimes overwhelmed with the response's from men and their offerings. Once a lady receives X number of letters from guys promising the moon, how do you think she reacts to the average Jack or Safari?.......

I imagine I'd try an agency, like you if I was already there and needed
more options.

.....Sure, you can wait until your there before hollering for help, a lot of guys do. Just seems to me most guys are more efficient when getting and using all the help they can get before getting there.......

Socials of any variety are out for me as a serious way of approaching
this. I'd try one with an open mind and a raised eyebrow, but even at
the invitation-only variety, I can't imagine feeling comfortable with the
many-on-one approach getting to know a woman. I willing to meet
more than one woman, just not at the exact same time and place. If I
end up teaching English there while the economy recovers, I imagine I
could keep my schedule full?

For guys who have attended them: am I off here on the socials?

.....As the consumer is becoming more educated, the large socials are for the most part becoming history. Now I am speaking from my own opinion here. Certain agency owners and owner of a certain Russian Discussion board do not like it when I speak my opinion. It is becoming harder and harder for these companies to have attend the 45, 50, 60 men who used to routinely attend these socials. Now they struggle to get from 20 to 30 men to attend. The chances of you or any guy finding his future 'good' bride at one of these socials is less than 5%. Most of these ladies are "social scammers". It is there life, how they live, how they get new clothes, new shoes. If they can convince the man that he is the one for her, and many do, she will even get the last $200 or $300 he has on him as he leaves to go back home and another $600 to $1000 over the next 3 to 4 months before the guy has figured out he was scammed.

Socials are fun to go to if you want to go and have a good time. I went to many socials just to have a good time but I always had good sincere women to see that night or the next day who were not part of the socials. Other than my first social I never relied on meeting any ladies from the socials. Most the men who attend socials have done no work or preparation to meet other ladies outside the socials. If they don't make it with one of the ladies attending the socials, than there in trouble.........

[wilmc]

... in response to Agency vs Non-Agency Girls, posted by Safari on May 24, 2003

I have corresponded with 9 ladies.  All from "free" agency listings.

In only one case was I asked for money.

All were "mature," over 37 years of age. All had children, but only one had a young child.

All were interested in finding a new life in the US, Canada, Western Europe, or Australia.

I dated four.  Three of them found husbands, one in England, two in USA.  I am still dating the fourth.

My impression:  They were all, intelligent and honest.  Most had English language skills, 3 out of the 4 I met were fluent.  

All were attractive.  The ones I met were extremely attractrive and had wit, and "good senses of humor," and were very warm.  The one I am still seeing is a fantastic dancer.  When we dance, other dancers step aside to watch her and applaud.  I only wish I could match her skill.

Hope this helps.

[europete]

... in response to Agency vs Non-Agency Girls, posted by Safari on May 24, 2003

After spending 14 months in Ukraine, mostly in Kiev, I have concluded that most of the girls that go to socials are either looking for a way to a better life in a Western country, out for a fun evening or more with someone who will be in town for a week or 2, looking for someone who will spend money on them for clothes, holidays,etc., or looking for someone they can get cash from.
I have been to approximately 30 "socials" put on by the major companies, i.e. European Connections, Foreign Affair, Anastasia, and a few by smaller agencies. I do not mean to say that all of the ladies who attend socials are scammers, just a high percentage of them in the major cities where these agencies go to. And 4 of the most charming ladies I have come to know I have met at "socials", and at this time it looks like I will marry one of them. But when you compare that to the amount of women I have met overall, the good ones, in my opinion, are very hard to find, particularly at "socials".
Having stayed in Ukraine so long, much longer than most are able to, I have learned the language reasonably well, can get around anywhere on my own, and have been able to meet many people, both male and female. I have found that if you can communicate with them in their own language, it is quite easy to meet charming and attractive ladies. And they have an interest in you as a foreigner, for most have never met a foreigner from the U.S.A., western Europe, etc..
In Kiev in particular, there are quite a few places where Ukranians go to study and/or practice their English language skills, and in such places it is quite easy to get to know people, and you very well may meet someone you find delightful. It is under these or similar circumstances where you will meet more sincere ladies who, if interested in you, would make quite a companion.
Indeed I do recognize that many do not have but a few weeks to be in Ukraine, Russia, or other similar countries, and the difficulty one would encounter if they went to these countries without someone to guide them around, lead them by the hand, would be daunting and terrifying to many who come on a group tour. So how to best make use of the time available to them is a difficult question to answer, but I would not recommend the large "socials" to someone who is serious about finding someone unless they can afford to come over a few times and get a better idea of what they are meeting.
The idea of coming over for a week or 2, doing a fiancee' visa to bring someone to your respective home country after knowing them for a few days, is pure folly in my mind.
If at all possible, learn the Russian language competently, write to some ladies you see on some of the web-sites, go visit with them after a suitable time to see what magic there is or isn't. Letters are never as good as meeting in person. Or go to some of the places where English is practiced and try to strike up a conversation with one who you find attractive. Very often someone you meet will have an interesting female friend or sister. Just let it be known that you are seriously looking for a mate.
Most of the expatriates I know in Ukraine have found their wife or girlfriend without the use of an agency, without going to "socials". They meet them in much the same way we meet people in our own country, doing similar activities, having similar interests. Do this if possible.
I will go back myself, but fortunately I have friends there and know my way around a little. And I have a fair amount of experience of my own with agencies, and have heard a lot from other men about other agencies and their experiences with them.
Good luck to those undertaking this course of action.
Good l

[Antonua]

... in response to Re: Agency vs Non-Agency Girls, posted by europete on May 24, 2003

You are spot on. Whilst I am sure that you can find a good girl in two week visits but it takes luck to stick gold on your fist couple of digs.  If you are sincere and want to understand and find a Ukrainian wife then I agree learn the basics of the langauge, stay in the country for at least a year and get to know the culture.  This in itself is rewarding. The hard pay is the
n making the choice to leave...

[Antonua]

... in response to Agency vs Non-Agency Girls, posted by Safari on May 24, 2003

For most it is a case of wanting Love and if possible get out and find a better life.  Not all but many have experiences that make you want to cry or be sick.  Many of tyhe women I had met told me that their first sexual experience was by force.  Date rape or just out right rape was what many had described.  One girl I remember well would not date local/russian men.  In fact she had the look of terror on her face when she saw the likes of some Russian men.  The fact is, and it is not all men but a higher percentage then we would see in the west or in more developed countries, manymen are out right rude and abusive, constantly drunk and show little respect an regard to a womens dignity.  

You just need to visit a couple of night clubs and you can see the attitudes of yound men that will shock you.  Clubs such as "Luguna" in Kharkov,  Nen treat women with such disrespect they dance with a women they have just met and out rightly group her.

Yes they want out but mostly they want a normal decent relationship and yes you might be the means and ticket out but treat them right an they will love you.

I was told that Russian men prefer women to be under the age of 24 and without children.  If they are older or have had a child and now single they find a hard time to find and secure a decent and meaningful relationship.

The problem I think we find is that two week tours is not the best way to form a relationship or to gain better understanding of life and culture in Ukraine or Russia.

To this extent some of the agencies that are just interested in the money,  Money for services that are not needed and in most cases over priced.

It is easy to meet women in Ukraine and Russia.  There is an more relaxed and open minded attitude to relationships.  But the one thing that is string is the desire to fund true and meaniful love.  And they have no illusions as to what that means.  Things just happen quicker there, relations  develop at a much quicker pace then we are use to in the west.

IMHO

[Mark33]

... in response to Re: Agency vs Non-Agency Girls, posted by Antonua on May 24, 2003

Antonua,I disagree with that statement. Humans are very complicated creatures,and though what you said may seem logical, it is not always true. In fact I have seen the opposite happen time and time again. Even with foreign women. Most AM are very good to their foreign wives, but that does not guarentee she will fall in love.
  I read somewhere,women fall in love with scent as well as physical looks,that they are actually more complicated then men when it comes down to who and why they fall in love.
  If love was so easy to attain, just by being nice,there would be so many happy relationships.

[Antonua]

... in response to Re: Re: Agency vs Non-Agency Girls, posted by Mark33 on May 25, 2003

I am sorry if you thought that I thought they would "fall in love" with you just because you nice...  I don't think that is a general rule at all...  but it is a start.

[Philb]

... in response to Agency vs Non-Agency Girls, posted by Safari on May 24, 2003

I spent some time with a woman I met on the train this past trip (still write.  I have also had casual encounters with women in the shops and the like who were obviously interested (and I'm a pretty average looking guy).  I realize that at least part of these women's interest is because I am a Westerner. (to what degree would depend on the girl of course)  I think this is true no matter how and where you meet. I also do not think this is necessarily bad.  I mean we all have are reasons for going over there too, and it isn't to meet a fatter, dummer, uglier and older woman than we can generally meet here.