Great article about boys and men

[Lynn]

... in response to Re: weak dollar has its charms, posted by DanM on May 19, 2003

"Are economy is built on consumption and not production." If everybody here is consuming and no one is producing, where does the money come from to "consume"? There are thousands of people out of work in the furniture and textile manufacturing business, in the southeast, that would love to hear that answer. Of course, un-employment benefits and welfare checks could provide a little monetary imput;)

[DanM]

... in response to Re: Re: weak dollar has its charms, posted by Lynn on May 19, 2003

As for the unemployed people in fields such as textile and furniture manufacturing, I am afraid they will most likely watch these job sectors continue to shrink.

American consumers are price driven. When labor is such a significant part of the equation (Labor+Materials+Overhead = cost), then it is just a function of algebraic logic to see that a job market such as the USA with a higher cost for labor will not be an attractive place to locate these jobs. Jobs will continue to move to China and Latin America because the labor costs in these countries is a small fraction of our labor costs. Even when you factor in the cost of shipping the finished product to the USA, the manufacturers still come out way ahead by not using expensive American labor. The lower prices for these good and the flight of these jobs from the US market are both a direct function of globalization.

Unfortunately, people do not realize that employee cost is a huge driver in the number of unskilled manufacturing jobs available in this country. Employee cost includes salary and benefits such as health insurance. Every time the liberals try to raise the minimum wage levels or increase the employee costs of companies (can you say universal health insurance paid by the employer), they are compounding the problem and sending more companies overseas for their assembly plants. Then the very same liberals who exacerbated the problem blame the greedy Republican corporate interests for not taking care of the little guy.

The best way to help the people who have lost these jobs would be for the government to offer some form of job training program that allows the workers to move into job sectors that have a future. Long term, our higher standard of living requires us to emphasize education and training more than we have, because the jobs available in the future will not be attainable with a high school degree or a GED.

[DanM]

... in response to Re: Re: weak dollar has its charms, posted by Lynn on May 19, 2003

Sorry for all the grammar mistakes in my previous post. I was in a hurry and I didn't proof it.

Yes our economy is consuming more than its producing, but that does not mean we are producing nothing. We produce a lot. We just consume a lot more than we produce.

If you take a linear extrapolation and compare the trade deficit to something like water pouring out of a cup, then you are right. Under this logic, a critical mass will soon be reached and we would have an economic meltdown. Luckily, however, things are not that simple.

I will do my best to explain it to you, but I am afraid my explanation will be rather crude and incomplete. I have a general working knowledge, but I am very far from being an expert in any sense.

Are you familiar with how the Federal Reserve Bank controls money supply? I am not asking if you could give me a dissertation. I am just asking if you understand the basics. If so, then you know money supply is largely dependent on demand for our currency. Since demand for our currency is driven by a sort of international "consumer confidence" in the dollar, it is very important to have a strong dollar.

If you can accept this explanation, the you can see that a very big part of how we pay for our trade surplus is simply by printing more money. Now before you take this example to a ridiculous extreme to prove that it will cause an economic crash, I want you to realize there are other mitigating factors working in our favor and also that we are well within the mathematical tolerance for such behavior. Sorry, but I just don’t have the time or depth of knowledge to explain this as well as I would like.

In short, we pay for our trade deficit partially by printing more money and partially by movement of large amounts of investment capital into this country. Its nothing new. We have been doing this for a very long time. Its just hard for people to understand or accept, because it does not work under the same principals as their checking account. Although comparisons are a great way to extrapolate from a familiar subject to an unfamiliar one, the checkbook comparison does not adequately address all the moving pieces of our monetary policy or issues related to our trade balance.

[Lynn]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: weak dollar has its charms, posted by DanM on May 20, 2003

[This message has been edited by Lynn]

I am privy to insider info at least in the furniture manufacturing industry and the points you made about overhead are all true, but the flaw in the equasion is as the guy in the next post points out--greed at the top management levels. No matter how much they save by manufacturing outside the country, the price won't come down at the consumer level, the quality has gone to crap, and the top level salaries are going way up. The companies spend a lot on fixing returned goods, the consumer and the work force who relied on the manufacturer are getting screwed without the benefit of a kiss. I have seen all this first hand. First they went to Mexico, quality dropped and the workforce started wanting the same pay as here, then they went to Slovenia, quality improved but they found they couldn't squeeze them as much as they wanted, then on to China----quality went to hell in a handbasket, labor is dirt cheap, recalls and lack of people willing to travel there to work quality control were killing the hope of making it work, now they are courting Brazil.

The only thing it would take to turn this country around and bring back our manufacturing base is a import tax on foreign made goods. No matter of education will help when there are no jobs to be had, the FSU is a perfect example of that. Heck, I know this Russian lady who was a chemist and a college professor in St. Pete---here she works in a R&D lab for a mattress company sewing special patterns in the ticking. Our educational system here has been dumbed down so that the average college graduate here is little more than a drone for the government, a worker bee, one purpose, go to work punch the buttons, operate the computer, go home and never wonder how the world came to be. I garantee that not one in ten college graduates here could pass the 1895 Kansas 8th grade end of grade exam as it was given then. There will always be a certain ammount of people who are only qualified to work in a mill type job, if all those jobs are shipped offshore, what's left for them? the soup line? welfare?  

Oh yeah, I am very familiar with the workings of the Federal Reserve. Is the Fed part of our government? Just what do you think backs the money that "we" print? Who benefits the most from this process of printing more money?

And my last question, do you know what the difference is between a Kennedy $5 bill and the $5 bills produced now? Do you know what the Kennedy $5 represented and why they were taken up soon after his death?

The last 90 years has been a steady downhill slide for this country and the sad thing is most people are unwilling to recognize the truth. Usury and debt money is choking this country to death along with the UN agenda of globalism (read communism). The exchange rate yesterday US dollar to Euro was 1.16 to 1, as I remember a finacial analyst review about a year ago said that 1.18 was the danger zone for the dollar.

[JohnL]

... in response to Usury, is what is killing us..............., posted by Lynn on May 20, 2003

Hey Lynn
Nice to see you up and about again. Im still looking for that specific info on those pieces of paper here, the ones we sign!

Just a snip from your post;
The last 90 years has been a steady downhill slide for this country and the sad thing is most people are unwilling to recognize the truth. Usury and debt money is choking this country to death along with the UN agenda of globalism (read communism). The exchange rate yesterday US dollar to Euro was 1.16 to 1, as I remember a finacial analyst review about a year ago said that 1.18 was the danger zone for the dollar.

You and the *rest* of us all headed down the same path, who will change it? No one.

Yep, guess who is looking after the Eu? Just another wee confirmation of the big picture!

Cheers, catch U on email !
john

[Lynn]

... in response to Re: Usury, is what is killing us..........., posted by JohnL on May 27, 2003

[This message has been edited by Lynn]

"You and the *rest* of us all headed down the same path, who will change it? No one." But, I suggest you read this:

Sirach 33:20  Actually my aunt, who knows nothing of my studies into government, law, rights, etc., pointed this verse out to me on a recent visit. The strange thing about it was there was "no" prompting. I just ask her where she had purchased the study bible on the top of the pile of bibles on her end table. She picked it up and said "I have something to show you", turned the pages, found the verse, showed it to me and hobbled out of the room.
In some of my recent studies, I have discovered so many ways how we are tricked into doing what that verse warns us about.

[DanM]

... in response to Usury, is what is killing us..............., posted by Lynn on May 20, 2003

Sorry to answer your post a little out of order, but I am just listing these things as they come into my mind.

As for the stuff about corporate greed, please look at what I said to the other guy. Corporate greed cannot exist without investor greed. Since you, me and almost everyone else on this board is an investor, we are the source of the problem. Until we decide that return on investment is not our number one goal, nothing will change. For the record, I do not think anything should change.

I don’t equate globalism with communism. In fact, if you look at the comments in this thread about globalism crushing the American working man, then it might be more accurate to characterize globalism as some form of neo-capitalism. Could you please explain more about your thoughts on how globalism equates to communism? Is it more of a Marxist or Stalinist form of communism? Any other thoughts you have on the subject would be helpful, because I don't really follow.

Could you also talk more about how usury and debt money are choking the country? Most economists would say increased debt spending has been one of the biggest reasons for our prosperity over the past 10 years. It might be more accurate to describe it as the fuel of our economy. As for the composition of debt, most of it is far below usury limits. In fact, most people take out the higher interest debts such as credit cards by cashing in the equity on their own (ie a cash-out refinance or a home equity loan). In either case, prevailing mortgage rates are at historic lows. I think you can even go as low as 5.25% on a 30 year fixed rate mortgage right now if you have very good credit. As for the credit card debt, it usually ranges between 12 and 21 percent. These levels are also below usury limits as defined by the US government. Please elaborate on your thoughts regarding usury. Is it more of a judgmental name to use against prevailing rates you do not like or is it intended to actually conform to the definition of usury?

Could you please tell us a little more about why the current exchange rate between the dollar and the euro has entered some analysts idea of a danger zone? I would be interested to know the thoughts behind the sound bite.

No I do not know anything about the Kennedy $5. Could you please tell me more?

Actually the Federal Reserve Bank is a quasi-governmental entity. It inhabits that gray zone between government and private sectors as do Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. As for the question about who benefits more from the printing of money, I would have to say everyone. We are all dependent on one another. If we could not create money out of thin air, we would all be much worse off given the current economic climate. If you have a 401K or IRA, then you are dependent on the Fed to keep corporate profits rolling. If you have a job in the retail sector, then you are dependent on the Fed to print more money to float our trade deficit. We all need the Fed more than we know.

The idea of putting import taxes on foreign goods is really a very, very, very bad idea for lots of reasons. Too many to list, but I will hit the ones that come to me off the top of my head. Yes I understand the desire to help out people in specific job sectors. The problem is that none of the protective tariffs will be done in a vacuum. If you impose tariffs on  the rest of the world, don’t you think they will reciprocate? Our export sectors such as aerospace, medical, technology and agriculture will be crushed. Millions of jobs will be lost. The final result will be to have a more inefficient allocation of our resources from the sectors that are more economically viable to the ones that are less economically viable and there is no guarantee that aggregate unemployment will not rise as a result. So if we do create protective trade barriers that are reciprocated by the rest of the world, then we will all pay more for what we consume, produce less in the aggregate and maybe have a net loss of jobs. Sorry, but its really hard to see the charm of this proposal. We simply are not set up to base our economy on manufacturing in the current global environment. I don’t care what worked great 50 or 100 years ago. We gotta live in the now. Sticking our head in the sand as to this fact will not do anything but hurt us.

My opinion is that protectionism is more like communism in the fact that it inhibits natural market driven decisions with government mandates. Its anti-competitive and anti-free trade. Seems to me like globalism is a lot more of a capitalist idea. It allows market forces to determine the most efficient allocation of capital. If you think about the problems of the Soviet Union, then I think you can see the dangers of ignoring market driven choices.

[BURKE89]

... in response to Re: Usury, is what is killing us..........., posted by DanM on May 21, 2003

I beg to differ.

I certainly respect the fact, you've the ability to grasp the important elements of, well, what differentiates our nation from others (I just read some of your recent posts, quelling that wretched notion of class-envy - a vile notion, indeed).

Yet, Dan, it's not just manufacturing; nor, is it the importation of H-1B workers, at a faction of the cost of Americans (I might add: despite the precarious situation presented to our nation's people - job losses, et al - H-1B is being pushed further, still).

I would venture to say: you look at our constitution, and, well, something burns in your heart to keep it. Despite, the beauty of the document - in comparison to others - you see an inherent differnce. Yes... no?

It isn't about Americans doing menial tasks: It is about the very notion of the nation-state. What Lynn is saying (excuse me Lynn, if I'm incorrect), in a different fashion, than myself, is: why give up our sacred birth-right as Americans. Dan, look at Europe. They've given up their nations eternal rights to govern away. Why? To Brussels?

You appear to be a sound 'conserative,' so, I'll ignore your analogy: "... protectionism is more like communism..." Perhaps you might understand why I no longer read National Review, eh?

Free trade, well, it isn't free; nor does it benifit the largest 'real consumer' on the the planet.

[DanM]

... in response to Excuse me, Dan, for jumpin' in, yet..., posted by BURKE89 on May 22, 2003

Hey Burke,

Please don't apologize for entering the conversation. I always enjoy your comments, even when I do not agree with them. Your responses are always logical and reasonable.

As for my feelings about the constitution. I really like it. It was great for its time and its still great now. No doubt about it. A lot of what has made this country great is due to the guidance and leadership the founding fathers provided us via this great document. On the other hand, its not a Bible. It can and should be altered to fit the times. I am not talking about any specific article of the constitution. I am only saying that we should not be closed to the idea of altering it when needed.

Sorry, but I must profess ignorance to the H1-B worker definition. Is that a special class of documented foreign worker or does it cover all people in such a category? On documented foreign workers in general, I am for it in measured and controlled way. The sad fact is that we need it to shore up the sorry output of our educational system. Don't get me wrong. Some great people come out of the American educational system. The problems is that we do not have enough American-grown workers in many job fields that are critical to the US economy. To that end, I have no problem importing qualified, productive doctors, engineers and computer programmers from India, China or Europe. These people fit a specific need and create a disproportionate increase in the aggregate good of the country.

As for unskilled foreign labor, I am not so enthusiastic. We should restrict this sort of immigration, because it usually results in an aggregate resource drain.

As for the idea of globalization being akin to loss of our national sovereignty, I think there was a misunderstanding. I am not for the idea of a merged world government administered through the UN or some other agency. I am only talking about the free trade between national markets. I think George W has shown that a country can encourage free trade and retain its political independence. Heck, the French and Germans are hopping mad at us and the business still flows. Anyway to clarify my point, I am for free global trade and not for some global government or other loss of political sovereignty. We do not have to follow the EU model because we are the 800 lb economic gorilla. People will come to us on our terms if we are strong. On the contrary, I think globalization of markets will cause something akin to an American economic colonialism. It will strrengthen the hand of our multinational corporations and it will open up new markets to the things we do well. I think it will add a new deemision to the leverage we currently hold on many other countries and, therefore, be a source of increased political strength.

As for the idea of protectionism being like communism, I stand by my original post. For a government to restrict free trade is for a government to place an artificial barrier to the natural flow of market driven choice. As such, protectionism remind me of a communist command economy.

Another analogy is to say that protectionism reminds me of welfare. Lets suspend disbelief and say that you can create a net gain in jobs in the USA via a massive projectionist move. At what cost would this be bought? GNP will go down and inflation will go up. As a result, we will all have less money and the money we do have will buy less than before. So even if you could somehow create more jobs, you would only be able to do it by taking money out of the pocket of every American consumer. Hence the welfare comparison. I contend it would be cheaper to give the same people a welfare check and not economically isolate us from the rest of the world.

I eagerly await your response. : )

[BURKE89]

... in response to Re: Excuse me, Dan, for jumpin' in, yet...., posted by DanM on May 22, 2003

eh? As a fan of Samuel Francis - a un-abashed European-American, well, equalizer - we must look at this ( in particular issue) further, indeed.

Unlike others on the board: I respect and love the "South," as an historical entity - a stablishing force, if you will. The rural elements, despite 100+ years of insults, deserve a special place in the history of the "Republic."

Enough pro-southern thoughts. It's jobs and our manufacturing base, that our quarrel begins:

I'm deeply sorry; however, these Communist inferences to the "Old-right" is dead wrong! To compare the proctection of our: food supply (now under threat, with Dubya's "here to Tierra del..., " or WTO, NAFTA et al, to the benefit of my nation. Well, I don't want a $7.29 Iron from a China - while Americans are tossed from their jobs - who no longer have the ability to purchase that simple little tool.  Nor, do I wish to see upper-midddle class families thrown from their homes.... well, because we can send "every job" for a 10th of an American worker -tech - IT - manufacturing - etc.

Nor, do I wish to see the land I was raised in: look and act (enormous crime, i.e. California) like a Bannana Republic. I just can't see how so many individuals call themselves... Republicans?

I, however, noticed: you didn't seem to have any qualms with what has recently transpired in Europe? And, yes, what is England's future. Friggin Brussels, eh?

For Freedom.... and Mel's new flick, too!

PS. I realize that I didn't respond to all of your questions, however, my desertion of the G.O.P., might explain my motives.

[LP]

... in response to Re: Excuse me, Dan, for jumpin' in, yet...., posted by DanM on May 22, 2003

"On the other hand, its not a Bible. It can and should be altered to fit the times. I am not talking about any specific article of the constitution. I am only saying that we should not be closed to the idea of altering it when needed."

lol, you ain't a conservative, you're a Southerner. Who decides "when needed"? The people? Guess again....

Altered to fit the times? Jeesh. I suggest you look at the most recent amendment to it, the last one made: XXVII. Yeah, thats a sign of the times! A good example of the people who you're trusting things to. I thought the Constitution should only be changed for important things.

I guess them deciding their own pay is important enough huh? It literaly takes an act of Congress to make sure they get more than they're worth. They even altered the Constitution to make sure of it.

I guess the oft told joke is true: America has changed greatly in the last 50 years. Oh, except for the South.

[stefang]

... in response to Re: Re: Excuse me, Dan, for jumpin' in, ..., posted by LP on May 23, 2003

With the way the government runs the country I wish the south would of won. I don't believe in slavery, wait a minute we are slaves, we are taxed and can be forced into the military under draft.

[LP]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Excuse me, Dan, for jumpin' ..., posted by stefang on May 23, 2003

...but try to convince a Southern conservative of that, they think everything is hunky dory. I suppose it is if you never probe too deep. I'd better be quiet though, as a recently deputized fed I could get my azz in a sling for exercising my first amendment rights. Thats a hoot huh? What a country....

[stefang]

... in response to I hear ya...., posted by LP on May 24, 2003

Social Security is another form of slavery. Why do I have to pay taxes to my retirement? I feel I can do better than the government in saving for my future since at my age SS will probably be wiped out. We should have a choice but since the government never invested the tax funds, they are now in a jam and will never let us have our freedom back. I will pay more in, then I will ever recieve back. I am trying to invest as much as possible so I don't have to rely on a single dime from my SS.

[Lynn]

... in response to Re: I hear ya...., posted by stefang on May 24, 2003

status. If you are a United States citizen, then you are to be considered as a "ward" of the corporate government, therefore you are considered not capable of taking care of your own affairs. It is a multi layered system by which they tacitly assume dominion over you and you not knowing the difference accept it. The corporate US only has power inside of it's territory, some ten square miles as prescribed in the original documents and all lands (military bases,dock,parks, etc) owned by the corporation. Where the trick is, is the federal zones and that is a very layered deception. Do you use the two digit, all caps, abreviation for the state you live in on your mail? Copyrighted material, owned by the government designating zones. The official abreviation for the states have not been changed.