Sealing the deal

[BURKE89]

... in response to You're wasting...., posted by LP on May 14, 2003

if Mencken flows from your gullet, I can't hate you.

Now, shall we hear: Belloc, Pound & Chesterton, as well?

Do tell

[LP]

... in response to L.P., posted by BURKE89 on May 15, 2003

...surprised what flows from my gullet. We're all a lot more complex than we appear on here. (well, some of us) Trust me, I'm a decent enough guy outside this sewer.

I need to stay outta these debates however, because it's somewhat risky. My opinions could be damaging to me in light of recent changes in my  work. (Think about it.)

But hey, feel free to hate away if it makes you feel better...just look how well it works for others.

[BURKE89]

... in response to You'd be......, posted by LP on May 16, 2003

I tend to agree with the results of 'your' stated opinions: I, rather, enjoy my occupation, as well; so, I under...

Yet, stop insulting Russians, with men in ""tow,"" for you just might find logic... slithering amongest the Right.

Speak: Mr Shaw/Orwell,or 'F'abian with, well, sense.

V.

[Lynn]

... in response to You're wasting...., posted by LP on May 14, 2003

I am afraid you are right, still I am a optimist. Mencken hit it right on.

As a friend of mine often quotes-----

"There is tranquility in ignorance,
  but servitude is its partner."

[Travis]

... in response to In rebuttal, posted by John K on May 14, 2003

Noone here has to have a propeska to live where they choose either!!!

[Georgina]

... in response to Re: I think we are nominally free, posted by Lynn on May 14, 2003

Even though, there are things I don’t like about this country, I prefer to live in a country that enforces the law rather than in one that doesn’t. I think it was Benito Juarez (former Mexican president) who said something like “My rights end where your rights start” (literal translation?)  “Mis derechos terminan, donde comienzan los tuyos” I think this is enforced and recognized here in the United States better than in any other country in the world.

[Robert D]

... in response to Re: Re: I think we are nominally free, posted by Georgina on May 14, 2003

and frankly this expains why just about everone from almost any country tries his or her best to move here.

The lack of freedom issue is bogus. If we lived in a country the size of Iceland, with no diverity of population, language, culture, well that would be simple.  But we do not.  We have a large population many of them immogrants and decendants of immogrants, and frankly I think our constitution has worked very well for all, even though we had some very bad old days in the past, it survived and because of it, so have we as a proud and strong nation.

Robert D.

[LP]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: I think we are nominally fre..., posted by Robert D on May 14, 2003

...First off, most "immogrants" want entry not for the freedoms but for the economic oppurtunities and a chance to suck off the system when they fail at achieving them. (Our friends from south of the border seem to be especially good at this.) In fact, I know scores who have returned home after milking us for all we're worth, mainly in the Asian community.

Second, the current crop of immigrants from many nations have little or no interest in assimilating, wishing instead to establish a small piece of their own country right here. Come to California and you'll see entire city blocks and shopping malls, as well as city halls, where no English is evident. My city alone has newspapers in 30 languages and by law the state must provide voting ballots in over 75 more.

Third, it's not the enforcement of US laws thats the problem. It's their nature, their effectivness and the process of how they're made that is killing your "proud and strong nation"

Fourth, anyone who thinks the lack of freedom in America is "bogus" (especially since 9-11) is in need of some serious education. Usually it's ill informed hayseeds from the heartland who limit their views to such a narrow perspective. Try a thourogh perusal of the Patriot Act for starters.

[Robert D]

... in response to Yikes....., posted by LP on May 14, 2003

Well I have done it again.  Made a typo and started a political discussion.  Well I did not just fall off a turnip truck, but frankly do not feel any less free now than I did in the 60's in fact I feel more free now.  The swing to the far right is as much of a scare to me as the swing to the far left after the 60's.  In the end being "far out"   sorry I could not resist, on either side just means you are dead wrong about most things and are normally agenda driven in your opinions and motives.  

I must admit that immigration in California, is a large problem, ignorned by many liberal minded people that prefer to look at the world as it should be and having no coping skills to handle it as it is, (it seems even Senator Fienstein sp, now thinks it is time to do something about illegals in the country as well as immigration- go figure, the same woman that is critical of SUV's but who drives one almost daily)  
   As for 9-11  I have know the argument, and also know the difficult times we are in and further I am less critical of the efforts of those trying to find solutions than I am of those who are critical but offer no solutions to the problem.  The latter is easy, the former if you are a fair minded policy maker, can weigh very heavily on your mind and heart.  But I travel coast to coast at will and the only military type check point I ever experience is when I enter California.   (even I can over look that)  I have the opportunity to work and have my work pay off, and no one tells me what to do.   I can burn or pee on the american flag, as it is my right (but it still upset me almost to tears when I see anyone do that- and I am no right wing idiot.)  I see all over our country decent people making a living raising their kids, a living a comparatively good life.  
   So as for me any anyone I know, I feel nothing has changed for the worse since the 60's  I feel safe at home work and do not feel I have lost a thing.

Robert D.

[LP]

... in response to Re: Yikes....., posted by Robert D on May 14, 2003

Yeah, them political things can get messy. I try to stay outta them, a weak moment on my part. Lets just agree to disagree and see who's right in the future. Trust me, I hope it's you.

Btw, we agree on one thing: The illustrious senator from California is a quite a piece of work.

[Travis]

... in response to She's primarily from Sevastopol, posted by John K on May 13, 2003

Thanks. I haven't had the fortune of visiting Ukraine. Hopefully I will someday.

I will agree to some extent that some things are more restrictive here such as the cases you pointed out, but by and large they are more beneficial than harmful. Many of the FSU countries are passing simular laws as time passes. Just as they are restructuring the laws goverening business, they are restructuring social law. They do have a lot of catching up to do in a lot of areas.

I'll make you a promise. When everything with me and the soon to be ex is said and done, I'll give a full account of what all happened. I know that sounds very vague on my part but because my situation is not complete, I cannot elaborate. Legal BS :-) And again, I am sincerily grateful to read good stories such as yours. Stories such as yours give hope!

I should have become a plumber!!!

[Robert D]

... in response to She's primarily from Sevastopol, posted by John K on May 13, 2003

Ok, I have never been to UKrine, but frankly, here is my experience.  I met some nice people during my week in St. Pete.   The girl I went to meet was very nice.  But frankly I felt as if I should stand on the corner and pass out prozac during my trip, as no one smiled, and all but except the youngest of women, early 20's, seemed rather serious or even beaten down by life.  After you talked to them they warmed up.   Now freedom, and restrictions, frankly I feel much freer here, and safe in many ways.   Crime is a problem in most major cities, but not so much in the burbs, where I live and most of us live.  But frankly, the mafia presence in St. Pete, and my concern even when taking taxis there was very real, and I am a very tough guy not some pencil neck geek.  It was strange to go to coctail lounges in the city, and see no one there at all but out of town business people and no women, not to mention single ones.  People seemed to work and go home carring their quart of beer with them as they walked to the subway.  So this is very odd to me.  Because of this, although I think the city was beautiful, there was a lack of energy there that was very telling.  The kind of energy you find in most major cities in the US, and even places like Cleveland or Kansas City, two cities that are not on my list of hot places to visit.  So this discussion is rather odd for me.  

Robert D.

[BURKE89]

... in response to Re: She's primarily from Sevastopol, posted by Robert D on May 13, 2003

[This message has been edited by BURKE89]

however, L.P.'s cynicism is more apt. Our metropolitan centers are  sh..-holes for one reason: the 1965 Immigration Act.

I have a more favorable view on Asian immigration than L.P., because, I've Darwinian/Rushtonian thoughts.

Stop the 'candy-coating.'

'Energy' = 'White/Asian-flight.'

Truth is truth, & logic, even in an un-varnished state, still holds its polish, eh?

Vaughn

[Robert D]

... in response to Robert, your a nice fellow..., posted by BURKE89 on May 15, 2003

Well, I wish it were that simple.  Frankly but for California, I can not see how Asian flight has any impact on the rest of america's urban environment.  Frankly in most areas of the country there are not enough Asians to "fly"  I also do not think of Houston as a S hole by any standard, and frankly can think of  a few urban centers that are, but they are not the majority by any means. San Fransisco a S hole,  don't think so.  tooo liberal yes, but hardly that bad.  Atlanta, nope still has energy there, and a good economy.  Denver, nope,  doing just fine I think.  

So I can not buy into that one.   In my city there is revers flight of sort.  The downtown near the quarter has seen a dramatic increase of those folks who otherwise would move to the burbs, but now live where they work. (downtown)  That has been very positive for the tax base.  But now the issue is that most of our businesses (oil and gas and shipping) during the 90's did what most large business did,  merged and consolidated.   Houston got most of it, and it became part of their boom.  WE lost, and it is almost impossible to replace those jobs. That had nothing to do with flight buddy.  Just economics. The truth about oil for example, is that you can run much of the company from a lap top on some deserted island, and subcontract out much of what you needed to have employees do.   As for shipping, increase fuel costs have made ports that are closer to the ocean, gulf of Mexico in this case, more attractive.   Here again Houston, and sadly for my city, even Mobile are more attractive.  
    This change has had a direct effect on my business here, but I am doing well, and frankly will likely retire early anyway.   But this is why no simple answer works in my example, and I suspect others.

Robert D.

[BURKE89]

... in response to Re: Robert, your a nice fellow..., posted by Robert D on May 16, 2003

You're correct, I think, in your regional thoughts upon Asian immigration & my interpretation of their suburban-flight, as well.

Their sheer numbers, in real terms, are very limited; yet, what I was trying to convey: was their inevitable retreat, much like the former European-American retreat for 'our cities,' that started in the mid-sixties.

A new book of interest, would be: World on Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Violence and Global Instability, Amy Chua, Doubleday.

She's a 'lefty,' who saw her Chinese family killed in the Philippines (the Chinese minority (let alone, being Japanesse) is murdered/hated in: Burma, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia etc.

It's analagous to the pale-skinned elites (code-word  Europeans) of Latin America; Jews of Eastern Europe; Dutch (hard-core fighters from Hell - commentary excluded)  of Southern Africa; Indians of East Africa et al.

I guess, my thoughts are: why do I wish to make my nation look like every other 'lovely' nation?

For talent-

Vaughn

PS. I wish you the best in this business climate; for I feel your thoughts, because I've now lost 60% of my base in manufacturing.