Daily Telegraph article

[WmGo]

Sunday's edition of the Daily Telegraph contains very damning revelations pertaining to Russia's support of the Hussein regime and other misdeeds. The article can be seen at its website.

This is probably just the tip of the iceberg.

[Cold Warrior]

... in response to Daily Telegraph article, posted by WmGo on Apr 13, 2003

Some Syrians working for the Russians were caught trying to destroy incriminating evidence at various government offices. Victor Tinorenko, the Russian ambassador was injured in crossfire early last week, he was carrying piles of documents and heading for Syria. The French are up to their necks also, no wonder they did all possible to prevent this war.

Grey Fox is after Saddam and his sons. If you’ve never heard of them I’m not surprised, do a Google search. I wouldn’t mind working them but then again I’ve got a good civilian job.

I heard that the POW’s were found up north. A house belonging to the mistress of Saddam was found. The bedroom had some `strategically’ placed mirrors and murals of naked women on the walls along with a cabinet full of scotch and brandy. So much for his good Muslim image……its past 3 a.m I’m going back to sleep. I don’t sleep more than an hour at a time.

[micha1]

... in response to Re: Daily Telegraph article, posted by Cold Warrior on Apr 13, 2003

[This message has been edited by micha1]

Stop with the propagada bull.
If you are really there, why don't answer what I have posted about the marine's wife having to to go to
churches charities,  to eat at the end of the month.
Every one knew it was an invasion. A jr. high team against the Bucs.
Tell me about schools in Oregon having to money to finish the year.
Tell me about the Midland Texas General, who didn't need to know from his azz to his elbow, to bypass
every body else.
Killing people is out of style.
Re-building when you don't have dime to do it.
Can't  rebuild the US, which is going on the brink.
John Major, who was there before Blair, is now a major player in Carlyle,
Europe will see the US see straight.
Michelin in Carolina, 6000 jobs.
The food company  120 thouands jobs.
Stop, please.
Some  people, who are suppose to be at war,  have the time to post here.
While the wifes of the marines in Camp Pendleton don't have enough to eat.
Stop the bull.

[Cold Warrior]

... in response to Re: Re: Daily Telegraph article, posted by micha1 on Apr 13, 2003

Hey Micha….. I don’t want war any more than you do. In fact the person who least wants war is the soldier. No one wants to die unless you are a suicide bomber.

Why am I here? First its my duty. I believe we are doing something that should have been done over 10 years ago. Count how many military and civilian causalities there were and compare that to the hundreds of thousands who have died under Saddam’s rule including over 1 million dead in the Iran-Iraq war.  While Saddam was no immediate threat to the US, his actions could have created havoc in the Middle East. Any attack by WMD on Israel could have forced them to respond in kind. You can see the scenario.

The US no longer has the draft. Guys who enlist know what they are in for. True, soldiers are poorly paid and a lot live below the poverty level. However most guys do not remain in the army all their lives. With the skills they acquire in the army they go on to a successful civilian career. Many of our civilian pilots received their initial training in the air force. Many guys who can’t afford a university education get the chance to receive a scholarship. I am an engineer and partner of an engineering company. I hope to be out of here in 2 or 3 weeks and back at my job.

I appreciate your concern for the military families. You’re a good man.

[wsbill]

... in response to Micha, posted by Cold Warrior on Apr 14, 2003

If went Bagdad in 1991 the numbers would have been much higher, probably higher than all that have been killed in the time in between.

And it would have taken and even longer time frame as well.

From a Naval Air prospective we were flying 2 older airplanes (A6 & A7), hence from a maintenance stand point a nightmare to work on.  Since that, the F18C have replaced both of those aircraft which also means a small footprint on the ship and higher maint productive, which equates in more flights and bombs dropped.

In 91's we dropped alot of dumb bombs, which probably accounted for alot of innocent lives...

Also, the friendly fire would have also been a major problem, as well.

1991 and Kosvo, really help our learning curve since alot of our military system had never really been put to the test.  But now, with the advent of the JDAMS, etc...

I think it was actually better not to have the French, Germans, Russians in the conflict since communications and target management would have been a major confusion and hence more lives lost.

It's easier for us to say sorry to the American people for a dead american, than it is for us to say sorry for someone else.

The Iraqi people have been under Saddam for so long and his repressive style of management, killing a iraqi accidentally while not idea of a situation, they must conclude, to have freedom it come with a price.

[micha1]

... in response to Micha, posted by Cold Warrior on Apr 14, 2003

You, CW and the Z-man are right.
Perhaps with the wine helping, which is no excuse, I blew my stack last night.
Sure I do hate war.
But what really scare me more than anything else.
It is the  deficit that is coming.
To have to borrow hundreds of billions of dollars,
the effects it will have onto the services that the state
can give.  What will it do to the kids' future, where schools
have to closed early, because of shortage of money.
This only one example.
Where are we going as a society in North America.

During the Gulf War, every body had the same beat,
all were in step.
This time,  80% of the British and the Spaniard don't
want war, and their leaders do it anyway.
Insults are thrown at friends of yesterday, because he
doesn't think in the same way.  This on both sides,
across the Atlantic.
Racist and hate jokes are funny, but it doesn't do much for
comprehension of what is happening and will happen.

As for Camp Pendleton, I researched it more this morning.
Oceanside is a growing community and opulent.
The rent are too high for some of the privates and low grade
family men, this is mainly why, some of the women left behind
have trouble to make ends meet.
Surely, there are other reasons,  but what is there to expect,
when a girl in her early twenties is left alone with kids.

Anyway thanks,  CW and Z-man.

[wsbill]

... in response to Re: Micha, posted by micha1 on Apr 14, 2003

Well, your going to have to stand back a moment and look at this war like your look at building a big sports Statum with a winning team.

The intial cost up front are enormiously expensive, but over the course of the time, the cost outweight the expense.

Some dollars will have to be written off as a bad investment, but for the whole of the good... it will pay off handsomely in future lifes and for generations to come.

Actually deficits are actually good, because they are goal.

For a country to focus on.
To reach for.......

A surplus is good, but pretty soon... It makes people lazy and less focused.

I'm sure some of you millionaire types, can vividly remember your good ole' poor days, where you scrimped and saved.  They were a mile stone for you on your ways to prosperity.

But now, that your on top of your heap...  Your looking around and saying... "is this all there is"?

MtMav sez I'm all about money...  everybody is.
But I have learned, money is only part a small picture in the scheme of things.  Money helps dreams come true faster.  But if your not rich and keep striving in a direction, it will eventually catch up to you...hopefully.

All the deficit is, is a monetary figure.  Which can be forgiven over time...  You will see, in time it was money well spent or wasted.  But to do nothing at all, would have been a real waste.

[BURKE89]

... in response to Re: The Deficits, posted by wsbill on Apr 14, 2003

Sorry Bill,

I thought, I might have missed something... on fiscal responsibility.

[wsbill]

... in response to Re: Re: Daily Telegraph article, posted by micha1 on Apr 13, 2003

Just like Russia.  Their people are deadset against going to war, but they have actually shot themselves in the foot, cause guess who is going to get those lucrative contracts to rebuild the place...not the French.

American have alot of economic wealth, money and just because stock market is down, doesn't mean were poor.  If tomorrow our economy collapsed and our currency was worthless, it wouldn't faze most americans.

We know the price of our freedoms are priceless.  

The Euro, and all the new EU countries are going to be a real tax on their so called monetary system.   Socialized medicine and all those free perks are a real tax on their French and German gov't system.   Use to be you could print up more Francs, not anymore.  With the Euro in place, you all now on a level playing field with your neigbors, who if they're economy is setup right, they can undercut you in price to have a deflationary effect and really continue to hammer your economy.

[Zoidberg]

... in response to Re: Re: Daily Telegraph article, posted by micha1 on Apr 13, 2003

I'm sorry Micha1 but I did have to post something here because I live in San Diego right by Camp Pendleton. I don't know the full story about this woman but I would bet almost anything she got in this position by spending money on personal things. I was also in the US Navy in the 80's. I feel bad for anyone that can't feed themselves but I am sorry but most of that is because of fault of their own. The pay in the military may not be good but even when I was in, some people made it and others really struggled. Most that struggled are because they tried to live better then they could afford. You can live fine with what they get if you're willing to make sacrifices and I don't mean having nothing. The reason many are in this position now is because instead of buying within their means they may be buying over that. I also grew up in a military family. My dad worked two jobs with 3 boys and we struggled badly but you know what? We made it. You know why? Because my parents knew what to buy and what not to and we lived off that measely pay. Even bought a house in San Diego but we ate hamburger helper and other very cheap stuff. Once a month my parents would treat us to McDonalds and then go get an ice cream. Anything else we wanted my brothers and I would go wash cars and pull weeds in peoples yards and that was when I was 5 or 6 years old. Then we'd go to 7/11 and buy maybe one nice Hershey's candy bar and then the rest we would buy the cheap penny candies so we had more.

Now I live in an average house in an average neighborhood and in the 10 years I have been here I never had any children ask me for work on the house till a few months ago. These two young kids came by asking if I need help in the yard or doing anything around the house. I was so impressed I have them come by once a week and they do things and I pay them. They did this because they wanted to be able to go to movie or buy some candy. I an very impressed with their parents because they taught these kids well. If more would do this instead of blaming everything on everyone else we would be in much better shape.  

The pay is not great in the military but the couple should know that and realize that before they start a family or buy their $20k car when I make good money now and am very happy with my $5k car every 7 or 8 years. I don't feel the US government should be taking care of those people. That is why we are in such big problems now because too many people want the free handouts that are in that position because of their own irresponsiblities. The problem is not because we don't have enough money in these programs the problem is because we are letting people take the money that have no business doing so.

Now there are some people that REALLY need the help and if it came down to where they were starving someone will help them. The local Gas and Electric company here has a new program to give military families that have spouses in the war free electricity. Today I went to the Padres baseball game. One of the players paid for 200 of these family members to see a game. There are plenty of things these families are getting and don't worry, none will starve. Yes, it's s struggle but they do make enough to survive if they know how to budget their money and if they don't then that is their problem, not the US governments. And doesn't the military get tax free pay in a war? They also get added combat pay atleast they did before. So the families might even have more pay then they had before they deployed.

Now don't get me wrong, for what these people are doing sacrificing their lives I think they should be paid much more then they get. I busted my butt sometimes in my Navy days working 12 hours on and 12 hours off 7 days a week out at sea. Many times we worked much longer hours then that. And if one of these families really are starving, San Diegans would come to their aid. This is a military town and there are many people that would help any way they can. But not so they can go drinking...only if they really need it.

One thing that I feel is wrong in this country is there are too many people that expect the government to bail them out of things that they got themselves into.

And don't get me started on jobs.

Z.

[Cold Warrior]

... in response to I'm sorry but I must vent.... Sorry for ..., posted by Zoidberg on Apr 13, 2003

Military families are a close knit bunch. They will stick together in time of need.

Don't know how you sailors cope with motion sickness. I can do a parachute jump but put me on a ship and my knees go wobbly.

[wsbill]

... in response to good post, posted by Cold Warrior on Apr 14, 2003

But all I found were a bunch of SHIPWRECKS ...

You really have to be at sea for about a week before you can get your sea legs... for those that don't know - your compensating a few extra steps unconciously to keep your balance.

On a aircraft carrier, I've looked down the long passage ways and can actually see the ship twisting back and forth.
Quite a sight to see in tossed seas.

But what you have to do is focus on your job, since that's about all you have to do out there.  Typical day is 12-14 hours long and that ain't including GQ drills and fire watches, standing in line for chow, etc...

Mail and e-mail via ships address are the high points, good luck if you can actually access a website, since it's damn near impossible to logon to yahoo and get your e-mail.

Anything remotely related to sex website is definately not going to show up as it's locked out of the system.

In the old days, before the brought the ladies on board the ship we'd just sit there and watch porn movies in the ready rooms.  What a life.  Oh, we might see a good movie, but those were a rarity

My how things have changed, when they brought women on board, everything got sanitized and now just say as nasty word if you jit your shin on a knee knocker, your darn near written up.

But in most reguards, having women on ships is ok.  Most of the women I have worked with in the service are very hard workers and don't whine...tho there are some that do play the sex angle.  (it's that time of the month to get out of work).  Though it's rare and usually a young kid.

[Zoidberg]

... in response to good post, posted by Cold Warrior on Apr 14, 2003

Motion sickness is not a problem for me...put me in a parachute and my knuckles will not let go of the plane! And if they do let go my knees will buckle in fear! I tried it before so I know...

Z.

[wsbill]

... in response to I'm sorry but I must vent.... Sorry for ..., posted by Zoidberg on Apr 13, 2003

In the last few years after we got rid of that dopey Clinton, who demoralized the military.  The first thing Bush did was give us a payraise and every year since we've had a cost of living increase.

My weekend reserve pay is $300, not bad for working 2 days(but they are paying us as if we worked for 4 days)
The average is about $225 for the guys in the lower rank and the officers usually take home anywhere between $400-500 for those 2 days.

When I'm on active duty, my 2 weeks pay is generally about $1500, they also pay us a clothing allowance, meals allowance, etc... which is about $250 buck included in that paycheck... but wait, there more.. my room and board tab is picked up by the government, so I acutally have no over head costs.

If someone is having a hard time struggling to eat, it's probably because they don't know how to cook and manage their money.  The military will give you a living allowance for off base in apartment, in some metro areas the cost of living is sky high - hence the gov't will help you with these expenses.

Generally, the people who have the toughest time in the military are family guys, who are very low in rank.  Thus, they've yet to get the extra pay to cover expenses.

It's all about making choices in your life.  I know married guys who are rich and drive a older car.  And I know guys who are poor and driving a brand new SUV/mini-van.

There has been indepth studies done by nutritionist for which people who are on the food stamp program recieve about $100 extra.  The nutritionist, took that $100 dollars and bought hightly nutritional items and cooked up meals to have over the course of a week or two and they concluded they had more than a few bucks left over.  

Clearly, the saying... it's not how much you make,, but how you spend  your money which will determine where you are in life.  Rich or poor.

[MtMav]

... in response to Re: Pay in the US Military is pretty dar..., posted by wsbill on Apr 14, 2003

With you,IT'S ALWAYS MONEY!!! Why aren't you in the Gulf contributing and earning your pay vice "soaking the system" as a weekend warrior?? Go back and read your second paragragh..... It's service; not a paycheck!!! Get it through your hillbilly head!  
MtMav (USMC Infantry, ret.)