Trip to Ukraine!

[dandy]

Hello all this is only my second post on this message board.  I just returned home today from Vinnitsa, Ukraine.  I had been writing a young woman there for 7 months and decided to meet her in person.  I had a wonderful time in Vinnitsa.  Kate was wonderful!  She was everything that I had expected her to be.  Tomorrow I will be sending in the paperwork for her K-1 visa.  I have a question for any board members who have married women from Ukraine or Russia.  

What type of cultural differences can we expect to struggle with after she comes to the U.S.?

Any wisdom or words of advice will be greatly appreciated.

[keithandkatya]

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

Hi there,

My wife is named Kate-- well Kateryna- I hope your lady is as wonderful as mine.

now cultural differences... some you probaly know already but just let me underline a few...

driving... big change for most ukranians -- or least the part I saw... they have public transportation and they use it... if they are lucky they have a friend or family member  that has a car.

many wonderful things we have here that they dont have there but... it is true that we dont have lots of things they have there... foods, medicines, etc.  try to find a russian store close to you...

there is more but it is time for supper.. good luck!! and all the best,

Keith

[thesearch]

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

Dandy,

The fact is, longer courtships and more trips are not practical many times in these AM/FSU relationships. It is not a good thing but nothing much one can do sometimes unless you have a lot of time and money. For many doing it right is simply not gonna happen. I have rarely seen it done to the likings of those critical of the process. So, the problem is that we have a situation that does not always lend itself to allowing the precautions that we might otherwise take if the lady was from our own home town.

Some guys who are known for coming down on a guy for moving quickly have their heads to a certain degree in idealism so to speak as they just can not seem to get it into their heads that the ideal method and the real world for many guys can not by nature exist as one and the same.  

Ironically those in this group probably see themselves as being realists and even possibly risk takers in other areas of their lives that would not be considered wise or logical from others who have conservative attitudes in these other areas of life. I am sure they justify taking chances in areas that they want to indulge in yet....for others with different risks it is somehow different.

So, if one has a lot of time and money one can treat these courtships like you would at home where the divorce rate is at least 50%.

On the other hand, if you do not have all the time and money required for the ideal approach you must either

1) forget the whole dammmm thing.

2) bite the bullet, acknowledge the increased risks, take precautions and move ahead.

I suppose that those who criticize guys that take the course that is more realistic for their situation versus the more idealistic expensive time consuming method would want to relegate you to taking option one if you can not do it the idealistic way. Now that does not make sense either. The only issue that makes sense is how much risk you are willing to take.  

But to be fair, what value do these sideline dissenters have? Hopefully they get people to really think about the risk and if needed implement some precautions. They just want to present a hard line approach to telling you that there is to some degree a crazy insane nature to all of this and you had better take a close look, do not get lost in the fantasy of love and make some wise decisions as, wrong choices can return to bite your ass big time. My only issue is some could be more diplomatic but, I do not see that happening. The advice however in its nature is valid and for some it will allow them to perhaps observe something they need to see and thus provide a benefit. For others, they simply may not like the hear and they may opt to not participate here because of such.

Also keep in mind that the MOB scene is viewed by many outsiders as the domain of the male who is a loser, a loser who can not get a woman and thus must resort to taking advantage of women from countries where economics are bad who are willing to trade their beauty and youth for a better life. Some guys do who have delved in this do not want to be associated with this stereotype and perhaps this were some of this is coming from.

Good luck to you and don't let the bullies run you off.

Greg

[yoe]

... in response to Hey Dandy   btw  (friendly poster), posted by thesearch on Feb 20, 2003

all the 'critics' were trying to say is, it may be less prudent to marry a woman that you have actually been in physical presence with for a week or so.......that is it. If you cannot see the honest concern......I do not know what to say. Does it make sense to jump into a lifetime commitment, bring a woman halfway around the world, and make her lose everything on a 'whim'? Because that is what it is. Any horny dog can be happy for a year of getting his meals cooked and his yanker spanked.......I was very aggressive and less prudent than I would suggest but that is my life and very few people could live like I do. I have many great failures, a criminal background, many past addictions and the list goes on.......all this for the few success that I have achieved. So even though I was lucky. I was prepared to fail.......that was the difference. I am still prepared. That may be cynical but it is real. Like Mike.........you must be willing to miss many jump balls to make those winning shots......every one has the opportunity to win and lose........but I hate it when they come in out of the rain crying because they got soaked
Joe

[Rags]

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

Welcome to the Board. You didn't run at the first blast of BS that got tossed in your face here so I'd say that you're serious about finding answers to your new relationship.

Some of the guys here may not be able to respond to your questions right away but be patient and if you don't get a answer, post it again. You've asked some questions that have pretty involved and highly subjective answers so be prepared...

For starters, let me say that I think starting your K-1 paperwork now is a grand idea. Why not? I don't think that anyone here who has gone through this process (or is doing it now   would tell you that they would have done anything that would have been able to speed up things. If things don't go well in this relationship, you will only be out the filing fee. You can stop the process at any time. Get things going now.

Beginning your K-1 will show both your girlfriend and her family that you are serious about your intentions. PAY ATTENTION! This is where the chaff begins to be separated from the wheat. This is when they face the fact that a BIG change in they're lives is about to take place and there are many clues and signals as to the probability of success or failure of your relationship. Up until now it has all been "blah, blah, blah" (to quote my wife ; )  You will now find out where her family and friends stand on the issue of her leaving HOME. Without their support, you will have a long row to hoe.

As to the cultural differences and shock of adjustment to life in the US, let's just say that it will be the biggest thrill and the biggest challenge of your life.

Stick around and somebody will eventually answer all your questions (not always the way you might prefer). If you would like some "help" with your K-1, email me at amtnmn4u@nospam.com.

[dandy]

... in response to To Dandy..., posted by Rags on Feb 20, 2003

Yeah I didn't think of the other aspect of filing now.  You pointed out a very good point.  Now that the paperwork is being filed when I go over in May I will be able to deal with the reality that they are going to be losing their daughter. I am sure that things may be a little different for her as well.  I don't think the complete realization has reached either of us.  It will be interesting to see how much certain things change because of this.

[RW]

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

Dandy,

great to hear you had a good time in Vinnitsa. My grandparents are actually living in that city

as for cultural difference - I think the impact of it is grossly overrated and most of the time you would be dealing with personal differences and adjustment process rather than something very big culturally. It would be more about people who are used to different living environment trying to adjust their habits, lifestyle and sometimes stereotypes and learning to compromise.

It also will depend on her age, her upbringing, attitude and how serious she is about your relationship. So nobody can tell you right away what to expect. We also don't know where you live - big cosmopolitan city or a little city. Also, I think you will be better off not having expectations about cultural differencies - there is a danger in it too. If you can't live with something or don't think it is the way it should be, you should not write it off to the cultural diffferencies and allow somebody behave "inappropriate" way. I hope you get my point.

Good luck to you,

Russian Wife

[Rags]

... in response to Re: Trip to Ukraine!, posted by RW on Feb 20, 2003

[Mike]

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

For what it's worth you can expect many cultural differances! Anything from men having custody to the types of food we Americans eat,and the music we listen to. You can expect all her reasoning abilities to be based on what she knows of life which isn't how we see things here. For example if she is here and meets one or two friends of yours then she may think this is how all American men are (because birds of a feather flock together) and she may not see that there are many different types of people here. My wife works with a group of women that I wouldn't normally hang around, nor my female freinds, but she used these women as the example of AW. Typically there are a few stages RW's go through when they come here. When they arrive they will spend a few months feeling like tourist and may want to spend their time with you alone instead of meeting others, and may want to travel and go see things.
They will go through a stage when they will think all Americans are stupid, they will miss their home badly when adjusting. I'm sure there is more to this list, but if she doesn't leave for home once she gets to the home-sick stage then typically it takes a few years before they love America. My advice is to just roll with the punches and remember she is the one that has to do the hardest adjusting work and you'll need to allow some things to not bother you and try to keep her needs before yours until you feel she is settled. At least this has been my observation, and others may argue or have different thoughts, or events in their marriage.
Mike

[yoe]

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

let me see how subjective you can be. Which of these sound like good ideas?
1. I met a girl on the internet; we wrote to each other for 7 months; I went to a foreign country where I know little about the culture; were getting married.......
2. I have been married for 2-3 months to a woman from a culture I know little about-------it is the best thing I have done in my life.
3. I have not married but have dated many women from the above said countries. I have found that there are some real dangers and one should tread cautiously and not make life decision after one or two weeks of meeting someone.
4. I have been married a few years now and even though the first were awesome, reality has set in and we have had to deal with some real issues, culturally, personally, and intellectually.
Of course your pals and family will support you, but no person in there right mind is going to tell you to jump into a relationship with a women you have only met for a few weeks........I do not care if you sent video emails for a year. Ask any married person. Living with someone is much different than living a letter, internet fantasy. So, listen to those with time or those still in the dream. But this is not going to be easy or cheap. As long as you are ready to sacrifice everything for a year or so-go for it. BUT DO NOT COME BACK CRYING AND SCREAMING SCAMMMMMMMMM. This is what I hate.
Joe
ps some guys never learn and will jump right back into the fire and marry the first girl they meet. The kinds of guys that do this are usually emotionally inept for whatever reason. If my situation had been different, I would have been more cautious. Yes it was worked so far,,,,,,,,,but who knows what tomorrow brings. Good Luck and grow some onions (Russian term) you are going to need them........and not for salad

[dandy]

... in response to Ok Dandy, it is time to show your age......, posted by yoe on Feb 20, 2003

I appreciate your advice. I also appreciate that it was directed in a respectful tone and not insulting.  My mother who is 72 is very encouraging of my decision. I think that it taking the advice of someone who is experienced in life. It was her idea in the first place that I try finding someone from Ukraine or Russia.  All I can burned for is money and another broken heart.  Marriages fail everyday even when the people have known each other for years. My last girlfriend I lived with for 2 years, I know what living with someone involves.  We knew each other for 3 years before we got together. Time doesn't guarantee that it is going to work. It may work and it may not work.I don't know very much about living with someone from another culture. That is why I am asking people on here.  In another post someone said that approximately 30-40% of these marriages are fraudulent.  Well the US divorce rate is almost at 50% so my chances are about the same.

[mudd]

... in response to Re: Ok Dandy, it is time to show your ag..., posted by dandy on Feb 20, 2003

true and good points, but its  when men do stupid things, like YOE points out, that pisses me off, get married in the first week when they barely know the girl, and when it doesnt work out, they cry SCAMMER or GREEN CARD SHARK,and they have no consideration for the girl, who just left everything behind to move here. at least i hope if you do this, and it doesnt work out,, and she goes back, you will help her until she gets a new job or something. most men just throw them to the sharks and go on another trip to meet the next victum. let me put it this way, would you drop everything you had, family, friends, job, everything you have known and just get up and move to a foreign country with a man you are not too sure about where a lot of diffrent things can happen?? i know i wouldnt. hope it works out for you, and by the way, you seem ok, because the ones who do krap like this, and when they post about it and the feedback is a little negative, you never hear from them again,they probably know its true so they dont come back to post, but you did , so i think you might have your head on straight.

[yoe]

... in response to Re: Ok Dandy, it is time to show your ag..., posted by dandy on Feb 20, 2003

your mother sounds like and awesome lady and I am sure that she loves you very much. I wish you the best. Just always be honest and expect the same respect that give. You are about to embark on the journey of a lifetime...........Welcome a-board.......;o)
Joe

[dandy]

... in response to Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 19, 2003

Why are you all so quick to judge? None of you even know the complete circumstances around the seven months that led up to this point.  What if we wrote letters almost everyday? What if our letters were several pages long?  What if we both had careers in the same profession? Would any of these things help increase the chances of our sucess? We have probably had as much correspondence as many people who have been writing for a year.

I have been hurt by women. Maybe not as bad as some of you and maybe worse than some of you. Yes I am 29 and never been married. Is that a bad thing? There are several 29 year olds who have been married and divorced, I am not one of them. I know I don't know everything that my decision will involve.  I asked about your culture experiences with Ukranian and Russian women so I can learn as much as possible.

I don't face criticism from friends, family, and co-workers. All of them are very supportive of my decision.  The only skeptics are people on this board.

Many of you have said you are just trying to help me or are concerned.  If you want to help me just share some of your experiences so I can be better prepared if I encounter them.

What are some of the cultural conflicts that many of you have had to deal with?

I understand the concern of only meeting a girl once.  I deal enough with the negative aspects of human nature that my view is "If she can pull the wool over your eyes for two weeks in February, she can do it in June too.  She can do it again in October.".  For the record I am going over again in May.  Will someone please help me understand the big advantage that a second or third trip will give you?

As for the right questions. If the girl stresses her Christianity you can ask her a question like "What does the word "submission" in Ephesians 5:21,22 mean to you?" I am sure many of you will write and insult me about what a stupid question that is, but think about it, there is no right or wrong answer.  Some men want the women to answer about being a husband serving slave and others don't want them to answer like that.  A women is most likely going to answer closer to her own feelings when the question has two potentially right answers.  I wrote several women for the first 6 months and eventually eliminated all but one based on her answers.  She told me that she was Christian which is great and really reinforced by the fact that she wasn't trying to sleep with me while I was there. She took time to get to know me.  I was impressed.

I didn't tell her anything about what I was looking for in a women.  The way I look at it is someone either has it or they don't.  If you tell them what you want then you will never know if they are being sincere or acting.

Tell me what do you think about some of the things I have stated.  

[Rags]

... in response to Re: Trip to Ukraine!, posted by dandy on Feb 20, 2003

I would warn against making any serious decisions based on a translation of a concept between Russian and English. This is particularly true of religion.

The biggest pitfall in any relationship is miscommunication of ideas. It increases exponentially with differences of culture and language.