Ray- The priest and the bribe

[donb2222]

... in response to Ray- The priest and the bribe, posted by JEM on Mar 13, 2002

I tried to bribe Filipinos, and they would not accept the money.  It took about 4 months for us to get my wifes passport.  Her birth certificate was marked "late registration", and was unacceptable for some reason.
Anyway, it got to the point where I was offering money to anyone and everyone.  No one accepted the money, they just explained that we would have to wait.

Welcome to the board Joe,

Don

[kevin]

... in response to Ray- The priest and the bribe, posted by JEM on Mar 13, 2002

I believe your story.  Although I never experienced things to the extremes you have, and I hope never to, I think you got into a bad situation and were taken advantage of royally.  Your story is not an isolated story.  I think that some just wantonly deny that this sort of this thing happens and is relatively incidental in regards to pursuit of Fil-Am (or Western) relationships.

It's too bad that people really have to deliberately hide things as they really are.  I think that misguides everybody getting involved with this sort of thing about the implications.  But this is reality and it cannot be denied.  If you try to think with a broad mind, I think it really explains why socio-economic conditions are the way they are in the Philippines.  A Catch-22 situation indeed.  Blashphemey, just like (I'm sure) with the Spanish elite friars, or the leaders of "evangelistic" cults, is rampant because there's no perceived earthly accountability.  The same could be said about medeival Popes.

All I can say to you, is that you have to draw the line.  You have to make your own, best sound judgement.  It's a jungle that many "conformist" (from the sociology anome theory) never give second thought about.  But that theory makes five categories of people.  First, there are the CONFORMISTS.  Conformists play by the rules, laws of the land, and morals.  If you work hard and honet, live by the golden rule, and live by the laws of the land, you'll get ahead.  But in theory, conformists perceptibly don't seem to get ahead.  I'm saying what I'm saying from what I recall from Sociology 301.  Of the five categories, I can not readily explain two without checking notes or text.  But there are also the INNOVATORS.  The innovators find ways to get around so-called established institutions (whether it be accepted religion, or the written laws of the land) in order to get places or gain better well-being that conformists can not.  This might explain alot of the stuff that is incidental to operating in Philippine society that is otherwise bewildering to the naive Westerner who never built an immunity to that kind of environment.  Then there are the RETREATISTS.  Retreatists are the kinds of people that have given up all hope to acquire a gainfully fulfilling lifestyle.  Retreatists resort to drugs or alcohol for happiness.  Retreatism could explain crack addiction in America as well as alcoholism in the Philippines.  In this vain, people have given up hope and behave in debaucheric manners with the attitude that there is nothing to lose, and to feel temporary gratification.

- Kevin

[The Walker]

... in response to Re: Ray- The priest and the bribe, posted by kevin on Mar 13, 2002

Personally, I prefer to call the innovators "realists". When you kick around enough places you learn to adapt to the reality of the situation. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try to change it where you can, but you have to make do with the tools and rules as they are. In other places, the rusles and customs differ. Heck, charging what the market will bear is a strictly capitalistic idea. Microsoft or Ford doesn't charge what they do because they think it's fair, they charge the most they think they can get you to pay.

In Switzerland they codified business bribes. Swiss companies take a tax deduction for bribes paid to foreign officials and personages. People point and cry "shame" but it is actually very honest. Not disguised as "school aid" or "charitable contributions" or any of the other things that are "required" of a company. Here in the US companies "bribe" locals all the time. They call it being "corporate good neighbors". They donate to parks and schools and housing and other things to influence local politicos and local opinion. It isn't true charity, it is a form of bribery. Charity is when you give with no hope of anything in return. Giving $10,000 anonymously as an individual to a local burned-out family gets you nothing except a warm feeling and maybe some capital in the hereafter. Giving $10,000 as a corporation to a local park gets you in the local papers, and gets local public opinion and local politicians to think kindly of you. If it is in a certain politician's district, he/she will probably vote favorably on your tax abatement. So all societies have bribery, they just call it nicer names.

-Don

[Mars]

... in response to Ray- The priest and the bribe, posted by JEM on Mar 13, 2002

No offense meant when I say this but when I read the stories of all the taxi drivers, judges, priests, drunken court clerks and what have you pulling what they pull over there in the Phils on foreigners...not to mention what I have read in regards to Howard's story (deception, betrayal) and a few others I have read here, I really question why anyone would want to go there and risk getting their life messed up. I think the risk is much less if you were to go to a country like Taiwan or China to find a mate where the economic difference between them and us is much less although there is the language problem. Sheesh...I guess a happy medium must be found somehow.

[kevin]

... in response to Re: Ray- The priest and the bribe, posted by Mars on Mar 13, 2002

You have a good point.  I think it boils down to two things. 1) The availability of women. and 2) Perception of things by westerners.  For one thing, in China (although I can't necessarily speak about Taiwan), there really aren't any available women.  In that society, males far outnumber females.  A good reason for this is accounted for by female infanticide because of Chinese population control laws and that being limited to the number of children a couple could legally bear, the desire to have a boy.

I also think that from the westerners's point of view, especially with what's typical about the contemporary American relationship scene, westerners are overwhelmed by the hospitality and kindness (actual or perceived) when it comes to the Philippine courtship scene.  In my opinion, in the vain of corruption, such gestures are a learned behavior in order to get ahead.  A naive westerner does not comprehend the difference, and if anything it's perceptibly 180 degrees from what he might have experienced in his own country.  Gestures can come from one's heart, but they can also be premeditated in the vain of saying "what one wants to hear".  For the westerner, the challenge is to recognize the difference.

- Kevin

[Jeff S]

... in response to Re: Re: Ray- The priest and the bribe, posted by kevin on Mar 14, 2002

I think you've been taken in by the media, Kevin. "in China there really aren't any available women?" What are all the available Chinese women web sites showing? There seem to be plenty of Chinese women interested in moving to the US. While many consider this endeavor a numbers game, the truth is that it's about one person finding one other person. If  aperson is interested in China, Chinese traditions, culture, food, people, etc, they should have no trouble finding an available Chinese woman for a wife.

-- Jeff

[kevin]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Ray- The priest and the brib..., posted by Jeff S on Mar 14, 2002

Maybe I'd have to go to China myself and observe the hard demographic numbers.  Sometimes the media obviously distorts facts and I think the issue of traffiking women in the realm of Fil-Am overseas courtships is a perfect example.

This is my take about the availability of women in China.  Actually this applies to the mainland.  I'm sure demographics are different in Taiwan and there probably is a greater proportion of available, pretty women.  Remember China's population control laws.  The incidences of forced abortions mandated by the law.  Sometimes baby girls are killed because the family would prefer to have a boy.  Now add the declining birthrate factor over the past several generations.  The result is a very high male population.

As for the women that might advertise themselves as being available, it's a very selective market.  There is the appeal of things American that might give an american man an edge over a common Chinese bachelor.  The same analogy applies to the availability of women in America.  I could go to a singles' mixer looking for a nice girl "in my own back yard."  Guaranteed I'd be competing with alot of other guys looking for the same thing.  There might be a few eligible girls there, but they'd be very few in proportion to the number of guys.  Practically all the guys would be eyeing at the same girls.

But now take a bachelor in Donald Trump's league.  Or somebody that lives like and looks like James Bond.  Even though women may be scarce, such men would have no trouble attracting the few because they have something outstanding about them that most men don't.  Just like a job resume that standsw out and attracts an employer's attention instead of being tossed in a pile.  I think, for mainland China anyway, this principle holds true about the women who declare themselves available (high standards of which men in their own back yard don't measure up).  And I think for the Russian women that advertise themselves, it's definitely not because it's hard to find a man in their own country.  I understand in Russia that males outnumber females, and I believe this is the result of generations of family-size policy.

- Kevin

[JEM]

... in response to Re: Ray- The priest and the bribe, posted by Mars on Mar 13, 2002

Mars,
your right but there's something about the Filipina spirit that makes it all worth it! And Chinese woman? I was married to one for two years. If I went any further you would move to the Russian section and I would surely get more hate posts.

                       Good luck,
                          Joe

[Mars]

... in response to Re: Re: Ray- The priest and the bribe, posted by JEM on Mar 13, 2002

Please tell me as I am talking to 2 Chinese women now...I would love to hear about your experiences. Was she from China or here in the U.S.?

[JEM]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Ray- The priest and the brib..., posted by Mars on Mar 14, 2002

Mars,

I do have some opinions about Chinese woman based upon my two years of marriage to the dragon lady. However, I bought my wife a a PC and she's a regular reader of this post. (Hello Betchay} Better I remain silent on this matter. Wouldn't want to spark a txting tampo. My wife can tamp for hours. Ha Ha luvuwfe.

[Jeff S]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Ray- The priest and the brib..., posted by Mars on Mar 14, 2002


I know a lot of Chinese couples, but not any mixed race couples. Traditionally, a Chinese wife is ruler of the roost. She calls most, if not all of the shots at home, and the husbands pretty much let them do their thing. It's very much like the old fashioned Jewish matriarchal traditions. In fact most of the Chinese couples I know interact almost exactly like my paternal grandparents, Jewish immigrants from Europe in the early 20th century. To many men this is a great situation, they can concentrate on their careers and not have to worry about what goes on at home. To others, used to calling the shots, this can be a major source of friction. Though I'm sure they exist, no Chinese women I know could ever be described as submissive. These are just my limited experiences. I'm sure others who have been married to Chinese women have more concrete information.

-- Jeff S.

[Ray]

... in response to Re: Ray- The priest and the bribe, posted by Mars on Mar 13, 2002

...just to get a rise out of you... (ROFL!)