Filipinas

[Harold]

I have been talking to various Filipinas for 2 years in chat rooms by mail, and found to be liars mostly about what they want, what kind of men they are attracted to ect. they are sweet fun to talk to until you get to know them.I have never talked to a group of people of various ages and education, who all turned out to say the same thing.
I don't believe the divorce rate is that low among the marriages either.Im' sure this will cause some backlash from your members but it has been my experience, belive me i have tried, with women of all ages,appearences,education, same with all.
Harold

[JEM]

... in response to Filipinas, posted by Harold on Mar 8, 2002

I stick with my experiences. Although Im currently buying property in the RP and plan to live there in six years, I acccept it as a culture of Bola Bola. To me, the large scale of dishonesty explains Transparency International's poor rating of the RP on the corruption index. I strongly believe dishonesty and corruption go hand in hand. The RP government is run by filipinos who are people in many classes of society.

I base the the dishonesty factor on such things as:
-being overcharged for oranges at the wet market
-Having to bribe a PRIEST to release our marriage license
-Having to bribe the captain of a ferry to let me off the
 boat in Zamboanga City as well as the immigration officer.
             {my papers were in order}
-The hotel worker who wouldnt give me another room and said the hotel was full after
 I almost electricuted myself with the shower heater. {The
  hotel was empty}
-James the Pinay surfer in SanJuan who told me his band
 be touring New York city next summer.
- Catching a pick pocket in the act and having him deny it
-The numerous taxi drivers whose meters are broken
- The fake documents being sold in front of the US embassey
- Senator Santiago's claim that she was a Harvard graduate
- My friend being sold land with a fake land title
- The man who dressed up as an fake priest in the US
  embassey who had to be escourted out of the building

These are only a handful of examples. If I think back I could list many more. And just read the newspapers. so many examples of frauds and scams not just with high level goverment workers but regular people.Our wives come from this environment where daily survival probably depends on doing some things that are dishonest just to survive. Not surprising Harold came to this conclusion as so many woman want out of the RP to seek a what they see as a better way of life. Of course they tell him what he wants to hear and better themselves by telling mistruths. And for those Filipinas who keep it real dispite living in a country with such challenges, maybe those are the real angels! And for those who have told me to "shut up" because Im new to this website and dont know what I'm saying, sorry but I refuse. Too much time spent in this country to shut my mouth. You're stuck with me until I get Zapped off the board. But I welcome the challenges to my thinking.

[Ray]

... in response to Re: Filipinas, posted by JEM on Mar 12, 2002

First, nobody told you to “shut up”. Jeff quoted an old saying and I agree that it was probably an appropriate response to your post.

I’m willing to forgive some of your comments because you are new here and don’t seem to know much about the other participants on this forum. If you would have introduced yourself as a new poster and then stated your opinions, perhaps you would have gotten a warmer welcome. Instead, you came here portraying yourself as some kind of expert on Filipino culture and insulted most of the regulars with comments like “It seems that westerners on these posts see this culture with Rose colored glasses” and “Just wait until their wives arrive and they will figure this out!!”. You insinuate that our wives are all liars and that we’re too stupid to realize this, so you in your infinite wisdom have come here to enlighten us. Sounds pretty arrogant to me and probably to some others.

If you think that you can pass yourself off as an expert on the Philippines, then you better have some really impressive credentials and so far I am not impressed with what you have shown us. Some of us have been to the Philippines dozens of times, some have over 20 years of marriage to Filipinas, some grew up in the Philippines, many have lived there, etc. So please come down off of your high horse and join in the discussions in a civil manner. Your insults will not be welcome but your honest experiences will always be respected. If your intent is to start a fight and argue with us, then you came to the wrong place.

Now, if you would like to start over and show a little respect, then let me be the first to welcome you to our humble forum.

Ray

[JEM]

... in response to JEM, posted by Ray on Mar 12, 2002

Hello,

If my posts inferred that I was an "expert" On the Philippines and  I claim to know more than others who frequent this post then I apologize. I do not see myself this way at all. Learning of my wife's culture will be a lifelong ongoing process and I keep an open mind to many points of view. But I cant change my past experiences in the Philippines with only  SOME of the events I've listed in regards to honesty and corruption. When I go to my wife's house in Malabon, Metro Manila the poverty around me makes me very sad and angry. The tax money doesn't trickle down to the people who really need better roads, services and police protection. And even the City hall official who was insanely hiking the price for our wedding service was blaming the government for corrruption, not realizing that his own dishonesty was one of the many roots of the problems in the Philippines. Im writing these words with emotion and a genuine passion towards this subject of personal honesty and relation to corruption. And sorry but this darker side of RP culture lives in all of our wives. Some leave it behind, others bring it with them to the states and some amazingly have been pios all their lives.

[Ray]

... in response to Re: JEM, posted by JEM on Mar 12, 2002

That's OK, no offense taken. None of us here claim to be experts on Filipino culture, not even Jay & Matt who grew up there. Probably because we have several Filipinas and Filipinos here that will correct us in a heartbeat every time we are wrong :-)

The honesty issue in the Philippines has come up several times on this forum. It’s been my observation that the guys who complain the loudest about dishonesty and corruption in the Philippines have done very little if any travel in other foreign countries. The more countries I visited, the more I realized that corruption is not just a Filipino thing, it’s almost universal. Besides, it’s actually the Americans who taught them the finer points of corruption and bribery. A lot of those spoiled Americans who colonized the Philippines created the bribery system because they didn’t want to wait in line for services like the rest of the locals, so they gladly paid for “special service” wherever they went.

It’s really embarrassing the way some westerners act in the Philippines. It’s no wonder they are always having problems. A whole lot of Americans just don’t have a clue when it comes to interacting with foreign cultures and many of those Ex-Pats you mentioned are some of the worst offenders. Talk about Ugly Americans!

In 34 years of traveling to and living in the Philippines, I can honestly say that I could count the times I’ve been ripped off on one hand. Maybe some thought about ripping me off, but it only happened a very few times. I could tell some real horror stories about a lot of other countries though. By far the most scams I’ve witnessed in the Phils have happened in the Metro Manila area and to a lesser extent around the military bases. Like numerous other large cities around the world, Manila is a magnet for crooks and rip-off artists. In recent travels in Mindanao, I cannot remember one instance where someone tried to take advantage of me. I just didn’t run across any crooks at all. In fact, like Dave H’s experiences, I found it quite the opposite.

The incidents that you mentioned didn’t seem to me like crimes of the century, but I was interested in the one where you said you had to bribe a priest to release your marriage license. Would you care to tell more of the details about this incident? I would really like to hear more on that one.

Also, I see you are waiting for a spousal visa for your wife? What stage of the process are you at now? I do wish you luck in your dealings with the government. Actually, my spousal visa went very smoothly and took a little over 9 months from start to finish.

Ray

[Dave H]

... in response to Hey Joe!, posted by Ray on Mar 13, 2002

Hey Ray,

I think Filipinos learned a lot from the Spanish. Latin America is something else, as is South Florida. Every time something dishonest or corrupt happens down here, my wife shakes her head and says, "So that's where Filipinos learned that...it's our Spanish blood!" ;o))

Dave H.

[kevin]

... in response to Hey Jose!, posted by Dave H on Mar 13, 2002

I'm sure Richard M. Nixon could and would attest to that.

- Kevin

[JEM]

... in response to Hey Joe!, posted by Ray on Mar 13, 2002

Ray,

You've got to be kidding!! It was the spoiled Americans who created the bribery system in the RP? Please cite your source? Thats a slant in history I've yet to come across in the books I've read about the RP. I really think it was 333  years of Spanish Colonial rule and the creation of the Ilustrados that led to a system of oligarchy, cronyism  and corruption. Just look at any other nation of Spanish colonial rule, so many similarities.

I agree with you that corruption is universal and I too see it in every country I've visited including our own of course. Of the places I've traveled India takes 1st prize. But if you want to see where the RP stands in comparrison, log onto Transparency International. That organization studies this subject. The RP jumped up a notch since GMA came to power.

                    Always interesting,
                         Joe

[Ray]

... in response to Re: Hey Joe!, posted by JEM on Mar 13, 2002

Joe,

Maybe I didn’t word that correctly. You make some good points and I agree with you that the Spanish influence was paramount but I was just trying to make the point that the American influence on the bribery system should not be ignored, since most of the complaints I hear on this topic come from Americans. Surely the Spanish had the major influence but I think the Americans and later Marcos helped to perfect it.

My source for my comments about the American influence in bribery comes mostly from talking with knowledgeable Filipinos over the years. Whenever I complained about bribery or corruption in the Philippines, I was often reminded that the Americans taught them how to do it. To what degree this is true remains to be seen, but I have seen the system in action while I was stationed in the Philippines. The Americans are more than willing to pay the bribe for some special treatment, which probably has the effect of making it the norm. I guess when they see so many Americans offering or readily agreeing to pay bribes, they eventually come to expect it of all foreigners.

None of those Filipinos I talked to liked the system, but most seemed resigned to the fact that it is here to stay or that it will take a long time to change it. Personally, I hope that’s not the case.

I haven't heard of Transparency International but I'll make a note to look it up when I have a chance. Thanks...

Ray

[Dave H]

... in response to Re: Re: Hey Joe!, posted by Ray on Mar 14, 2002

Ray,

I have to agree with you! I think that the Spanish set up and taught Filipinos the bribery system. Then the Americans came along and helped them to perfect it. In many ways, I find it easier to deal with than the American system. In the Philippines, mountains can be moved with the proper amount of influence and/or cash. In the US, it usually takes mountains of cash to have any influence. ;o))

Dave H.

[Dave H]

... in response to JEM, posted by Ray on Mar 12, 2002

Hey Ray,

I just want to know where I can buy a pair of those rose colored glasses. 8o)) I really need them, as I tend find a problem even when it doesn't exist. I'm no Philippine expert myself, but I've worked closely and have been friends with many Filipinas for the past 25 years. I've worked with with Filipinas from Manila, the provinces, and the bundoks. Some sweet, some ornry, some helpful, some bossy, some happy, some sad and homesick...overall a darn fine group of ladies, some of the finest I have ever known.

It's hard for me to be in a bad mood...my wife is home for 4 days. 8oD

Dave H.

[Jimbo]

... in response to Raygun=zzzzZZZAP!!!, posted by Dave H on Mar 12, 2002

Dave,

If she's home for 4 days she might say you're having too much fun here and rein you in a bit ;o))) - probably as soon as she wakes up!

Jim

[Dave H]

... in response to Marifegun=zzzzZZZAP!!!, posted by Jimbo on Mar 13, 2002

Hey Jim,

I just wait until she's asleep. As soon as I hear the bedroom door open, I scamble around like I'm doing something. ;o))) Actually, she's seen me having so much fun that she is talking about getting her own computer.

Dave H.

[Dave H]

... in response to Re: Filipinas, posted by JEM on Mar 12, 2002

OK JEM,

You've made your point! ;o)) WOW...you should write a book! I am really enjoying reading about your experiences. Please continue to share them.

Dave H.

[Dave H]

... in response to I can't find my zapper! ;o))), posted by Dave H on Mar 12, 2002

I was only in the Philippines (Butuan) once and had nothing but positive experiences. I know that things do happen, but they didn't on my trip.

One day while in my room, I received a call from the front desk at the hotel. In a very humble voice the clerk said, "Sir Dave, can please come down to the front desk, I have made a mistake with your bill. Thank you sir." When I arrived the clerk (accountant) explained that she had overcharged me for one day (P1400). I had already paid it on my bill the previous week. She asked me to please forgive her and continued to express her sincere apologies. I laughed and told her not to worry about it. For the final days of my stay, she had a hard time lifting her head and looking at me. My wife also tried to tell her not to worry about it. I was already getting a 15% discount over the standard rate.

When a typhoon in Manila caused my flights back to the US to be canceled, the hotel manager (a medical doctor) called to reserve a seat for the next day. Then he went himself to the airport to rebook my flights. It took almost 3 hours of his time.

I always got even the smallest change back on tricycles (I usually let them keep it) and jeepneys. They made sure that I got on and off safely before they pulled away (slow Kano legs). I got the Filipino price at stands and stores. I received the correct change. Granted, my wife was usually with me.

I went to about 15 stores to look for my wife's engagement ring. I knew the prices. At the store where we finally found the ring we liked, the prices were marked and they gave us a discount. My wife asked for an additional discount and they gave it to us.

The stewards (gay?) ;o)) and stewardesses on the PAL planes seemed to give me extra attention. On my flight from LA, one stewardess kept hitting me in the elbow with her butt every time she passed with the beverage and food carts. She always apologized for hurting my elbow...with that butt, not a chance. ;o))

People almost always gave me a big smile wherever I went. I was called "Joe, Guwapo, and Flawless" and even by my name from those who knew me. I didn't like being called "sir" by employees in stores and the hotel. People brought me delicious food when I was in the barangay. Kids did the mano.

The only real negatives were two Americans I met with Filipinas. They were arrogant and I hardly got a response to my hello, let alone a short conversation. The Aussies and Kiwis treated me like a mate. One Muslim made a negative comment to my wife and another gave me a nasty stare. One guy who was drunk stared at me with an angry look, but smiled back when I smiled. That was about it.

I can't wait to go back!

Dave "white cloud" H.