/

[thesearch]

This post is in response to a thread below that was about writing one woman and going to visit one woman (WOVO) versus writing many and visiting many (WMVM).

Somehow these discussions drifted to different issues almost to the point of making the issue of meeting one versus several being secondary. Whereas, I saw this as nothing more than shifting the importance of this topic to other important but unrelated issues.

I agree with Ken on the problem of "needing a wife" and going to the FSU to satisfy that need to the point of unintentionally losing discretion at the expense of accomplishing the intended goal. Ken, stated that although he could see the logic of meeting several women, it did not appeal to him and seemed unnatural if I understood he correctly.

For individuals like KenC who did the one woman thing and ended up as he did --- of course it was the way to go. However, these lucky individuals or individuals who "made" their luck, I suspect that their view is to some degree a product of their own experience that resulted in a wonderful success. If any of these guys had gone over to meet one lady each trip and success was not the result lets say after two or three attempts --- a certain percentage would see this differently. That percentage I would bet would go up with each failed WOVO trip.

When it works, this method turns out to be the best way as I personally perceive it. It is the most romantic - almost as if it was meant to be as long as neither of you got in the way of the destiny. The only logical reason to go and see one woman IMHO is as Patrick stated above concerning his desire and emphasis of wanting primarily to travel to other countries for pleasure and adventure with a wife merely being a possibility of an end result. You have a person to meet you so that your trip is personalized. Another reason would be that you are in no hurry, funds and time to repeat trips are not a problem and that the process is simply an enjoyable one because of the adventure or what ever.

However, it is my impression from what I read here that most guys are going to bring back a wife plain and simple. And some, accomplish the transition to the K-1 dialogue within a few days of first meeting a lady. Also, obviously many guys simply do not have the finances or time to make multiple trips that are not productive. Add this to the fact that they might be having the attention of the hottest thing they have ever been around relative to a female admirer and bingo, caution seems to get lost and the K-1 magically enters the conversation.  

First of all, the way I see it, what has been called unnatural and forced (referring to meeting several women versus one) more appropriately describes the act of traveling half way around the world to meet a woman you have never met for the purpose of exploring marriage. That is what is more unnatural. Ask the rest of the world about this and see what response you get.

So now that you are going to do this at some subconscious level -- unnatural thing - the question is how are you going to do this comfortably.

If you were in the USA and you heard of a party where there would be many single women, would one consider it unnatural and forced to go and see who was there and if one met a lady that you liked - to get her telephone number and take it from there. Not at all. Even if the purpose of the party was to allow single people to meet, one would not feel this was an unnatural thing to attend. It would be unnatural however for you to commit to one lady at the party who you had never met thus excluding you from meeting the other ladies even if you saw another woman that you were much more interested in.

IMHO, it is this act surrounding the pursuit of a Mail Order Bride that sets the stage of not being comfortable without this necessarily being acknowledged. This is reflected by the defensive attitudes that can surface justifying this pursuit. Love is emotional, whereas the approach of meeting several women in the pursuit of finding the right lady can be viewed as practical and for some, mixing practical with emotional pursuits can be like trying to mix oil and vinegar.

I will never again go over to just meet one woman. I am refraining from writing to any women at this point until I am committed to a trip as I do not want to become attracted to a woman via correspondence before I meet her ever again. However, it is so easy to begin correspondence as compared to obligating yourself to a trip first. So, some guys are naturally going to find themselves being interested mainly in one lady by taking the path of least resistance and then decide to make the trip. It takes a different type of effort to change that destiny.

Once a guy finds himself in this position it is not uncommon to then rationalize why going over to see one woman is the best. However, for the guy who is not discerning, this not a problem. There are some guys that if you cloned them into four different but identical men and you had them start writing to only one woman but a different woman for each man - all four would attempt to marry a different woman. It would be whoever was closest to them in the process at the time they were ready, who passed their check list of qualities and attributes. So, the same guy cloned into four guys marries four different women with each clone and the ordinal all claiming that this is the one and only women for them. I would be willing to bet that each marriage would have different levels of success even though we are talking about the male being the same in each marriage.

How anyone thinks that the odds are not improved by meeting several women versus one is beyond me.

Each will do what they are inclined to do. Some will succeed, some will fail. There will also be those that say they have succeeded but time will prove that to not be correct. There is no right or wrong there are only successes and failures.

IMHO --- I think that one really needs to start this process, before they write to just one woman because it was easy, by thinking about how they should approach this. Once you come to a conclusion - stick to it. If it does not work for you, look at what happened and change what you need if indicated and try again. Persistence usually ends up with success. Never expect results based upon the experiences of others. Only use their experience to help you decide how you are going to approach this.

I do not claim to know any more than anyone else. I merely have my experiences to reflect on that have resulted in my own personal conclusions.

Good luck to every one and may you find the path sooner than later that is destined to bring you success.

[Frank O]

... in response to /, posted by thesearch on Oct 18, 2002

I started out writing several girls & narrowed it down the "the one". Or at least the one when it comes to correspondence & phone calls. At this point I think it's too late to start writing others as I leave on Nov 5th. But I hate to say it I don't see myself writing several guys. Like Jack mentioned on a previous post I think I fit in the category of guys who can only write 1. Oh well I'll know shortly. As for staying around & enjoying the vacation I DON'T THINK SO! It's already cold in Ukraine & I'm from SOUTH Texas. If it doesn't work out I'll be back in 3-5 days & I'm heading to Los Cabos or Cancun with a MExican lady friend.

[thesearch]

... in response to I've apparently done everything wrong..., posted by Frank O on Oct 19, 2002

Frank,

There is no wrong or right - only success and failure. However, even failure is a success if you learn from the failure --- as in life, the way I see it, we commonly go off course, make an adjustment like a heat seeking missile that keeps readjusting itself also. Although the heat seeking missile is off course 98% of the time if it's target is trying to be elusive, it is the adjustments that ultimately spell success.

You may find that this one woman if perfect for you, or you simply find that you have a great time.

My advice is now that you can not change things, take a positive outlook so that you can make it a positive experience.

Good luck to you

[Oscar]

... in response to I've apparently done everything wrong..., posted by Frank O on Oct 19, 2002

Well, best of luck..  But I think to go all that way at that expense and to already BE there, if "the one" doesn't work out, rather than just leaving after 3 days, to not at least avail yourself while already there to meeting 2 or 3 others, is just insane to me.

But again, good luck..

[BURKE89]

... in response to Re: I've apparently done everything wron..., posted by Oscar on Oct 19, 2002

is a tad harsh, eh Oscar? (fellow 1/2 Swedish/American)

I don't have Frank's, 3-5 day whirly-bird planned.  Yet, "insane" -- if only, in inference to his plans, is rather rude... No, Sverige/American lad?

Perhaps, he want's his own adventure, without judgement? (He has other options planned.)

Just like... my South African adventures, between '89-'94...
They were mine... nothing more, nothing less.

Vaughn

[thesearch]

... in response to "insane,"  to you..., posted by BURKE89 on Oct 19, 2002

Harsh?

Not to Oscar, but maybe harsh to others. Not that Oscar is harsh - just that he would never consider such to be a rational thing to do if success is your primary objective.

I dare say that the word insane will get more attention, and some people need to have their attention gotten if they are going to listen so, if someone else read Oscar's post and made a correction and it made a difference for them in the end result, the more harsh word does it's job.

However, from a diplomacy standpoint, I know where you are coming from and your opinion is just as valid as Oscar's.

[Oscar]

... in response to "insane,"  to you..., posted by BURKE89 on Oct 19, 2002

Perhaps you're right, maybe "insane" is a tad harsh, but to go so far to meet just one woman and if it doesn't happen to work out, just leaving after THREE DAYS without even meeting at least a couple of girls from a decent local agency??  I just can't understand it..

It's like driving all day long to go sking and when you get there you find that your favorite run is closed so you get back in your car without ever putting on your skis and driving all the way back home!  Most people would say to themselves "ok, my favorite run is closed, but I will try some other runs since I came all this way"!

Just doesn't make any sense, I mean in 3 days most guys aren't even over their jet lag yet!

Ok, whatever...

[landscaper]

... in response to Re: "insane,"  to you..., posted by Oscar on Oct 20, 2002

oscar as you met several women were you ever scammed. does it ever get to the point with enough experience you can more easily detect the scam girls.

[Zink]

... in response to question oscar, posted by landscaper on Oct 20, 2002

I have some links and information that I used when I started searching in Russia. If you would like I can e-mail it to you later.

[Oscar]

... in response to question oscar, posted by landscaper on Oct 20, 2002

Certainly with more experience, comes more ability to recognize scammers.  Some are crude and easily detectable and others are more patient and polished.

I have certainly been scammed time wise, in writing to women, but as far as giving money etc., I am lucky to say I have not succumbed.. ;-)  This is the first rule Landscaper-
DON'T EVER GIVE A WOMAN MONEY UNLESS YOU HAVE MET HER IN PERSON, EVEN BETTER, UNLESS YOU PLAN TO MARRY HER!  That simple rule saved me a lot of trouble and if you never forget it, it will serve you well.  
My girl will not allow me to send her money for hardly anything.  She did let me pay for her travel to Kiev for her physical exams for her and her son, but she won't even let me send her money for English lessons!  I keep asking and she always say's "no, it's not a problem, I can pay for this".  I'm not saying it's not ok to pay for things like this, but here is another bit of advice- ANY HONEST, SELF RESPECTING RW WILL NOT FEEL COMFORTABLE TAKING MONEY FROM YOU!  When I met my fiance, she would not let me even pay for her taxi rides!  I'm not saying that a girl is scum if she does let you and you should offer.  Some girls have less money than others, but generally, if she is a sincere, honest girl, she will balk at your paying much..

If you want a quick cram course on scammers, go to web sites like Absolute Agency, American Singles, Match.com etc..  These are very inexpensive web sites where you pay like just $19.95 a month for all the contact and emails you want.  I found a lot of nice girls there and met many of them on my last 2 trips, but there are also a TON of scammers on these sites.  You will write for a while, and then if the girl is fairly crude about the process, she will quickly become very romantic and then say that unless you help her with her internet bill or her agency bill that has piled up, they won't let her write to you anymore! LOL!  Now you may laugh at this being so obvious, but you cannot imagine how many guys DON'T recognize it!  There is one reason girls do this- BECAUSE IT WORKS!  Maybe not every time, with every guy, but it works a lot!

I really do believe strongly in writing to a number of women before going there, getting to know them at least a little before meeting them if possible.  And some of these women will be more polished in that you might write to them for 3 or 4 months or more (sometimes much more!) but eventually, they will get around to needing money either for the internet, their agency, translation or because their Mother or child is sick etc..  If you want to test them quickly and be rid of them, just tell them that you have been advised NEVER to give money to anyone until you have made the decision to marry them!  They will very quickly drop you like a hot potato if they are a scammer..

Another wise thing to do is if they ARE saying they are writing you through an agency, tell her that you would like her to write to you from an internet cafe instead.  YOU MUST GET HER AWAY FROM THE AGENCY as soon as possible because sometimes, the girl doesn't even exist, it is just someone at the agency writing to scam you..  If the girl refuses to use an internet cafe, dump her!  It's that simple!  If she says she doesn't know HOW to use the internet cafe, you get a legit agency owner like Jack who visits this board, to have his contact in that city set her up at an internet cafe.  He fees are very reasonable for this kind of help.

Once you are actually there, be SURE to meet and spend significant amounts of time with this girls family and friends.  I cannot emphisize this enough!  If she is a scammer, she will very often not want you to meet these people in her life.  Once you DO meet the girls family and friends, ask them MANY questions about her, the kind of person she is, stories about her past.  You really need to know about this womans' history..

Last piece of advice-  Consider running some ads in the newspaper.  Few scammers respond to ads, they don't need to.  THey get all the men they need through the internet.  The women who respond to your ad will be interested in your photo and what you wrote in it.  This is how I found my fiance- she had never been in an agency (not that there are not some nice girls in agencies) saw my ad and decided to respond.  Again, someone like Jack can get your ads going.  You really do need a local phone and address for the girls to respond to and again, someone like Jack (I'm sure there are others, I just don't know them), can make that happen very reasonably..

Hope some of this helped..

Good Luck,

Oscar    

[landscaper]

... in response to Re: question oscar, posted by Oscar on Oct 20, 2002

oscar what country would you recommend to start running newspaper ads. do these ads run over the entire country or in select cities. do the women send letters directly to you.

[Oscar]

... in response to newspaper ads, posted by landscaper on Oct 21, 2002

As far as what country to run ads in, that is a very personal decision.  Where do YOU want to go?  I have been to Russia twice and Ukraine twice.  I liked Ukraine and Ukrainian women much better (no flames from you guys who married great Russian girls, it was just my particular experience!).  The women I met in Russia were I felt too young so I am sure that had much to do with it.  But I did find the Ukrainian women to be generally warmer..  The Ukrainians feel that Russians are too serious and Ukrainians are proud of the fact that they love to joke, etc..  The Russians I have met seem to feel that Ukrainians are too lighthearted and not serious enough! LOL!

Kiev and Odessa are probably the most visted cities in Ukraine as far as foreign men looking for wives are concerned.  I have been to Kiev and loved it.  It is huge and many of the women have more of a big city attitude.  I have been to Odessa and although smaller, it is much more picturesque and touristy..  The girls in these cities are also more sophisticated in that both in Kiev and Odessa, there have been a lot of foreign men and many of the girls have gotten pretty used to them.  Some unfortunately have become rather spoiled (not all certainly) as they have had a lot of guys over there throwing money at them.

I have also been to Dnepropetrovsk, this is where I found my girl.  Dnepro is about halfway between Kiev and Odessa in the middle of the country.  It is a huge city but an industrial city and not terribly picturesque like Odessa.  I would venture (and I am guessing here) that for every man who goes there, probably 50 go to Kiev or Odessa.  It is off the beaten path as far as guys looking for women.  You just don't hear as much about it, like many other cites.  I found the difference to be dramatic!  Of the 15 or so women I met there, only 3 had ever met an American before!  Of those 3, they had only met an American once.  They were very polite and very prompt whereas in Kiev, Odessa and in Russia, they were usually late for everything and often not so polite.  They expected a lot often times, at least that was my experience.  The women in Dnepro were just unspoiled I guess is the word that comes to mind (not that I didn't meet some nice girls in these other cites.  I did but nothing inspired me enough to go further).  I have said it here before, but I just feel that Dnepro is an undiscovered gold mine of women!  I think there is like 3 or 5 million people there (I forget which) and hardly any guys go there!  They were very interested in Americans and were not shy in letting you know..  I am sure some guys here had similar experiences in places like Poltava, Sumy, Lviv, lots of cities off the beaten path..

Regarding ads-
First, you decide where you want to go.  If it is to Kiev or Odessa, you will likely not get as much of a response as you might in cites off the beaten path.  The girls in Kiev can meet guys through agencies and don't have to respond as much to ads, although some guys say their ads did fine..  You will have your ad run for about 3 weeks about 3 months before you go.  You will get responses and start writing to the girls who interest you.  Don't be afraid to correspond with 20 women, just keep them straight! LOL!  There will be a natural narrowing down over the next while as you write.  You will dump some, others will dump you..  Then about 3 weeks before going, I would run the ad again for a couple of weeks.  SOme of these you may be able to write before going, others you can keep to contact there if you need them as backups.  

You want a nice photo for you ad.  Dress in a suit, take the time to have a nice photo taken rather than just some snapshot!  In a suit from like the waist up, nice smile, not too dark a background because you might get lost in the background once it's transferred to black and white and put in a paper!
You really need to have a local address for the girls to take their photos and letters (it's cheaper for them than having to mail it) and for the girls to call for more information about you, that wasn't in the ad.  THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT in my opinion.  If a girl sees you ad and likes it, and she sees a local address and phone, she is much more likely to respond!  So you will need a representative to work on your behalf there.  They will also need to scan the photos and letters to send you so you can see them.  You can also put your USA email address andsome may contact you directly, but most will go local.  
Now, I have already gone the rounds (as I am sure you have seen) for recommending someone in this capacity.  I have only used one person for this so that is who I can recommend when guys ask.  I won't recommend someone I have not used.  That is Jack Bragg from FirstDream.  He posts here a lot.  He is honest and can help you with all of this if you want him to.  He can arrange not only for your ad and the local help on it, but for picking you up at the airport, taking you to trains, getting flats etc..  One of your most important things there will be your interpreter and he can also help with that if you need it.  I don't know what I would have done without Galina (Jacks Ukraine Manager)!  She was great.  You can ask other guys for their input on other options of people to use etc..  If you go to Kiev, I can recommend a great interpreter who can also get you a nice flat very inexpensively..

Hope all this helps! ;-)

[BubbaGump]

... in response to Re: newspaper ads, posted by Oscar on Oct 21, 2002

And don't forget it was me that told you not to waste your time in Latvia.  Go to Ukraine.

[BURKE89]

... in response to Re: "insane,"  to you..., posted by Oscar on Oct 20, 2002

superfluous of analogies.

I'm too angry, of the burned church in Tart...

Oscar, you write: vastly better than I, and 95% of the posters here. It's just... "insane," might anger a few.

God Bless,

Vaughn

[juio99]

... in response to /, posted by thesearch on Oct 18, 2002

Greg, you have made one misstatement that has been made many times before.  Ken did not do the WOVO.  He often makes this correction himself, but I don't think he did here.

Actually, I doubt if many guys did a strict WOVO.  True, some have done the VO, but who has done WO?  In some instances, reported WOVO successes are misleading.  It becomes a question of when did the focus on VO start.

I agree with all you have said about the logic of investigating (or use whatever word you wish) as many as possible.  Starting from junior high, that is what all of us guys and gals did.  We considered everyone in our class, in our school, in our town, etc.  Tell me anyone who moved to a new school, put on horse blinders, walked into classroom, identified the first gal who came into view, and said 'that is the one I am going to pursue.'

Ken also makes the excellent point about not trying to fill a vacant wife position.  I know that some guys here are very lonely, but I still would advise like Ken to just go and have some fun, try to get to know the gal or gals (before, during and after the trip) as much as possible and see what develops over time.

If you say that you are determined to find a wife on a trip, believe me you will find one.  I could have already found 30 or more if I had been desperate to get married.

JR