Question to jski and others

[juio99]

I address this to jski because I just read his message below; but it is meant for all those guys who are planning to pursue the VO approach.

I have read this board for many months and the archives stretching back as far as possible for these many months.  I have read about many, many disasters that occurred from the VO approach.  Yes, there have been some successes.

Particulary important are the posts from those such as Greg and Zink who did the VO and now are stating (I hope I am not misstating here) that it was a mistake and they would not advise or do it again.  Even some guys who did the VO have cautioned that they would not advise it to someone else.

In view of the reported disasters, the conversions of those who tried it once, and the cautions from even those who were successful . . . .
I find it incomprehensible that newcomers (to this board at least) come here, read these postings, and still say they are going to do the VO.

And before anyone criticizes my WMVM as unsuccessful because I am not yet married . . . . . I do have a wife vacancy position, but I have no burning need to fill it.  I am very happy with my single life with many women here in USA and many women that I meet outside the USA.  I am not insincere with any of the ladies.  I never promise or even hint to them marriage or anything long term (during prior correspondence or while together), and I certainly will marry the one that is meant to be.

JR

[Zink]

... in response to Question to jski and others, posted by juio99 on Oct 19, 2002

In my case I don't consider what I did a mistake. I took lots of time to get to know one special lady. I travelled to see her knowing the risks. At first things were better than I had ever hoped and later reality set in. The one thing I would do different is not write for 8 months before going. So many things can be settled only by time spent together. My first lady and I said the words that the other wanted to hear. But when it came time to put up or shut up we were both disappointed by how the other handled the situation. I needed my time in Russia with her to learn that.

I tried the multi-lady approach on my last trip and didn't like it. I am a do it yourself kind of guy. I had RW help me find a few nice ladies and I found some on my own. I met two of the 6 that I had lined up. It was difficult for me to organize decent meetings on my own. I was busy with taking classes at a university as well. I met one lady and we didn't hit it off. I met one lady who is now a very dear friend. The other ladies either cancelled on me or I gave up on them. I am still feeling guilty that I dumped one lady who was very anxious to meet me because I was too busy and she was lower down on my list. I am not a player and I don't like to hurt decent people.

There are time constraints involved in this. I prefer to get to know one lady very well rather than many not at all. I do have backups in case things didn't go well with #1. But for me #1 from the letter stage was always #1 at meeting time too.

The bottom line is do what you are comfortable with. I like meeting one lady at a time. If it doesn't work then we both move on. I want to make an emotional connection with a lady and I can't do that when I'm writing a dozen at once.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Not a mistake!, posted by Zink on Oct 19, 2002

I didn't know that you used RW's service.

That to me seemed like a great idea. I would have done it myself, but the timing was always wrong. (Not that I have any complaints with the way things turned out...)

Did you just have her find a few ladies for you? Or did you hire her as your matchmaking consultant?

I would be interesting in hearing more if you feel comfortable sharing any details...

[Zink]

... in response to Hey Zink!, posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

RW helped me organize my last trip. She did everything for me at the Russian end. She introduced me to most of my contacts in Vladivostok, ladies, university, guide and apartment. If you want more details send me an e-mail with your questions. I should be around the house this evening.

[Jski]

... in response to Question to jski and others, posted by juio99 on Oct 19, 2002

I don't advocate my approach as the best or only way.  I mearly take the time to detail here how I'm approaching it as others, including yourself, explain your way.  It all boils down to what works best for the individual and what they feel comfortable doing.  I'm no sage of wisdom and would never tell anyone to do it my way.  For if you do it the way someone tells you and not the way the feels right for you, you're bound to fail or at least be very uneasy about the process.

BTW, I wouldn't criticize your WMVM approach or that of anyone else.  They are all personal experiences.  The fact that utter strangers from all over can share them in near real time is amazing.  A convienience of modern life that many take for granted.

I'm fortunate that I travel a lot internatioanly for work.  this provides me with hundreds of thousands of FF miles (I stick to the same group of airlines) so that my costs to travel over there are limited to housing, food and entertainment (My current ticket cost me $41.xx) and of course my vacation time.  If my trip / trips would amout to nothing more than a vacation, then I would be happy with that.  It is an area of the world I have been curious of even before the cold war ended. I studied Russian some through the university 5 years ago and continue to struggle with the language by I enjoy it.

I'm not in a rush to fill some void in my life.  I have the experience of failed marriages of my own to draw from.  They were learning experiences and growth opportunities for me and I don't regret them.   Its always a chance no matter where you look for that special someone in life.  I'm willing to take that chance with the experience of hindsight and the hope that I will have made the right choice.

I will listen to all opinions and may learn something from them, but my actions will be based upon my personal beliefs and what I feel comfortable with.

Sorry for the wordiness of my reply....

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Question to jski and others, posted by juio99 on Oct 19, 2002

[This message has been edited by MarkInTx]

I think you need to define "disaster", JR.

I will say it again... NOT getting married is NOT a disaster...

And, as I pointed out, the "VO" amongst this board's success far outweigh the "VM".

Or, at least I think so.

Other than Jack, who was successful using the VM approach?

That's an honest question... I really don't know. Guys, feel free to chime in here and correct me. Who used the "VM" method and has reported success?

If I remember Dan's story, he was there on business, and met his wife as a by-product of that. Ditto for Amerikana, RW, and Jimmy.

Oscar has recently become engaged using the VM method. But there were several of us that got engaged using the VO approach at the same time.

WSBill had an egagement using the VM method, but eventually broke it off.

You say that KenC didn't just VO, and I will disagree. He went to meet Lena. He also met someone else while he was there, but he wouldn't have gone over except for Lena. I really don't think you can put him in the VM category. He didn't have a "back-up" plan, for instance, which is so crucial to the VM approach.

(Ramblin'... what did you use? I can't remember...)

I'm thinking back.. and I just don't remember many successes with the VM method.

Why are you so sure it is better?

[Patrick]

... in response to Disasters?, posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

I certainly wouldn't try to argue that writing and visiting only one woman is the best way to go.  It was right for me, simply because that's the way I perferred to do it.  This is definitely one of those grey areas and no amount of sifting through the archives is going to generate anywhere near enough data to make an argument either way.

My own personal opinion is that for men who will enjoy the trip(s) as vacations even when they don't meet Miss Right, the visit one woman approach might be okay (assuming they prefer that method). I'm sure there's plenty of guys in both camps, and I suspect there's more successes in the visit many category, simply because they're probably much more intent on meeting and marrying someone.

One other thing we should careful about-  The definition of "success."  Lots of guys have gotten married.  Lots have gotten divorced.  At what point in time does a marriage become a "success?"   Each man may have a different opinion on that as well as the method to get there.

This isn't a matter of the "best" approach in my mind.  It's simply a matter of preference and I wouldn't personally advise anyone to try writing to a single woman.  With response rates not being anywhere near 100% for most mortal men and the fact that many women you get to know through correpsondence will prove to be incompatible even before a visit, I think men have to write to many, then narrow down to one (if that's what they want).

I think you're still fairly new to this, not yet married and still trying (like most guys) to draw some conclusions based on what you see some other guys going through.  We're all so different from each other that there really aren't any conclusions to be drawn IMHO.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Re: Disasters?, posted by Patrick on Oct 19, 2002

Actually, I agree with you.

I have been very vocal in defense of the WOVO, only because it came under attack. There seemed to be a prevailing wind blowing that said:

"WOVO doesn't work... all who try it are foolish (or insane!) and if you don't WMVM, you are wasting your time."

In response, my posts went too far the other way.

The fact is, you are right, there are as many ways to do this as their are men doing it.

And, as I have said before, a little luck never hurts either.

Years ago, I remember hearing Brandon Tartikoff's address to the NBC affiliates. He said:

"Five years ago, I was asked what my five year plan was to save NBC. Now, seven years later, I can tell you. My plan was to wait four years, and then put Cosby on Thursday nights... It worked."

The best laid "plans"...

[Dan]

... in response to Disasters?, posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

Here's a few others that have met more than one:

* Rags
* Quasimoto
* DE
* Del
* Jack
* me

Additionally, long-time guys still looking (and meeting):

* WmGO
* Lynn

Sorry - don't have time for an exhaustive list - BUT - I think you are badly understating the numbers of guys that have been 'successful' (using that term VERY broadly).

- Dan

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Your Memory's Failing Already?!? . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 19, 2002

I thought you said that your business took you to Ukraine and that you met someone as more or less a by-product of that?

I didn't know that you went over on a wife-hunting expedition?

[Dan]

... in response to Re: Your Memory's Failing Already?!? . ...., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

Mark,

Yes, you are correct that my primary reason for spending so much time in Ukraine is business. Having met, and married Olya - that will be balanced between business and family in the future.

I was responding to your comment - "I just don't remember many successes with the VM method."

That is what the list I prepared and the memory failure comment was all about.

Also - I failed to mention that the only out-and-out failure I know of involved an AM that happened upon a RW through an internet correspondence. I believe he saw her photo and they began exchanging e-mails.

He met her one time, became enamored with the sex, and decided to marry her.

She came to America and discovered he was not what he had portrayed and began to disengage.

They *did* get married - and then within a year decided to divorce.

She is still here in America on *some* status - I don't know which - and awaiting decisions from INS as to her residency and visa determinations.

I am, obviously, oversimplifying things - but it is fair to say that these two (I'm not going to mention names as the guy is a former poster on this board) are one example of a WOVO that ended in abject failure. The results of a desparate and lonely AM in combination with an insincere and mercenary RW. Not a very good combination at all.

- Dan

[landscaper]

... in response to Abject Failure . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 19, 2002

my early point of view would tend to agree with you. just makes sense, to me, to see more than one woman on a trip.

[Ramblin]

... in response to Disasters?, posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

Hi Mark,
I used the visit more than one.  I wouldn't call it many but it was a few.  In 2001, on a two week trip that ended two days before the 9/11 tradgedy, I went to Kyiv, Ukraine.  The lady that was supposed to meet me at the airport did not wait long enough after I was delayed two hours due to lost luggage and we did not meet.  I flew in a lady from Kyrgyzstan and after 3 days, I told her I would not see her anymore, but of course I paid for her travel and apartment for a week.  I met with six ladies set up through agencies and two ladies from a social.  During that two weeks, I dated one lady from the social 4 times, another lady 3 times, and the rest one time.  Oh and an interpreter set me up on a dinner date too.  Out of all of those, four of them had great potential but they did not write to me enough when I returned and eventually stopped writing.  My second trip to Ukraine was last May for three weeks.  I was to spend the first two weeks with a very beautiful and very young lady from Moldova and travel to the Crimea with her, I also had planned to meet a lady from Bishkek in Kyiv my last week there, and somehow fit in another lady in between those two ladies plus I had some back up plans.  After about 4 days I sent the beautiful young scammer back to Moldova.  I met the lady that was supposed to meet me on the previous trip at the airport because she happens to live in Sevastopol.  It turned out she was now a smoker and had a boyfriend in Lebanon where she spends 6 months out of the year.  I spent the remainder of the two weeks on dates set up by Aethena agency and they were all quality ladies but there was no connection.  The lady that I planned to meet in between the lady from Moldova and the lady from Kyrgyzstan did not show up at the train station but sent her sister to let me know she had exams.  I rescheduled for the next afternoon and that evening met the lady from Kyrgyzstan.  I asked my interpreter to meet the lady that I had rescheduled with her sister because I did not want to leave the lady from Kyrgyzstan.  He waited at the restaurant and reported back that she never showed.  The lady from Kyrgyzstan was the last fsu lady I met and she is now my fiancee.  She is not any more beautiful than the others, but she is a much better person by far and since day one, she has written to me about every other day.  She passed her interview on October 16, got her visa on October 17, and is now on a train somewhere between Moscow and the Black Sea with her father on her farewell tour to say goodbye to her relatives.
I would recommend back up plans, multiple correspondence, and to bring lots of telephone contact numbers to all newbies travelling to date a potential wife.  Sure, plan A could be to meet just one lady, but do not let that be your only plan.  That would be extremely unwise.

[juio99]

... in response to Disasters?, posted by MarkInTx on Oct 19, 2002

Yes, I agree with you that not getting married is not a disaster.  As I stated, guys get in trouble when they set out to fill the wife vacancy come hell or high water.

I don't remember all the specifics regarding the disasters, but they were along the lines of:
. Gal rejected him as he was coming off the plane.
. Gal was most interested in spending his money.
. Gal was nothing like he thought she was.
. Gal refused to meet with him after day one.
. Gal had lied about her age, children, marriage status, etc.
. Gal had used photos of someone else.
etc., etc., etc.

Disasters because the guy is miserable for X days, has used up his money and vacation time for this year, etc.

I can't answer your question regarding numbers of successes and failures for various approaches.  My only point was in avoiding disasters as I define and illustrate above.

JR

[Michael B]

... in response to Agree, posted by juio99 on Oct 19, 2002

See step 3 of my 99% post. Nobody can garuntee (sp?) that your plane won't crash on the way over either, but a PROPERLY done step 3 should 99% (there's that number again) guard against any of those happening. Now, if a man acts like "Wow! This one wrote back to me, TWICE even!" and goes on a one woman trip only that much correspndence, no telling what may happen to him.

But, if you don't like the one woman trip, do something else. Like I said, you have to do what feels right for YOU, and good luck to you what ever method you try.