not to start trouble...bout sex...

[Dan]

... in response to Re: Then It *Must* Be So   n/t, posted by WmGo on Oct 13, 2002

William,

I defer to the study you have conducted on the topic - however, the stats you cite just are not consistent with my experiences with people there.

Certainly I am not polling such a large group of people as to represent the 'norm' - but neither am I sheltered from the common people that should be making up those statistics.

Of dozens of ladies that I know (most under 30), only a few have ever had an abortion - and none have had multiples.

Since I cannot reconcile those 'facts' - I am skeptical of those who come on the board and cite "common knowledge"

When that "common knowledge" states that "every sexually active woman" had had an abortion - I *know* that is NOT the case - and I challenge it. Simple as that, really.

As a tangential, but related, point - I was reading just yesterday in one of the links I posted, that abortion rates in Russia have dropped by more than one-third in just the past 6 years.

How was your trip??

- Dan

[WmGo]

... in response to It Is Inconsistent With My Experience . ..., posted by Dan on Oct 13, 2002

Dan,

The trip was good. I liked St. Petersburg more than any other place I have been in EE. I have been meaning to send you an email and will get to it in the next few days.

Wm

[robobond]

... in response to It Is Inconsistent With My Experience . ..., posted by Dan on Oct 13, 2002

Dan, I've got to ask you this just out of curiosity [NOT yanking your chain].  How did you get to know dozens of RW (well enough to discuss their abortion histories) and not marry one of them?  Unless you've been on this quest for 10-20 yrs. the numbers seem out of whack.  Is "dozens" a typo?  You've got me scratching my head!...

[Dan]

... in response to Re: It Is Inconsistent With My Experienc..., posted by robobond on Oct 14, 2002

Admittedly, I did not actually stop to count the number of ladies and arrive at the term "dozens." Perhaps I should have been more circumspect in making my point - but I didn't. Still, the 'number' is probably more than 2 dozen anyway.

I was on this "quest" for several years - though it was never the sole reason for my Ukraine travels (business was). Started traveling regularly to Ukraine in 1998 - and didn't marry Olya till 2001. Since 1998 I've spent approximately 1/4 of my time in Ukraine - though it has been somewhat less this past year.

I have managed to meet, and get to know well, quite a large number of ladies from Ukraine. Some of them were love interests at one time or another.

When I say the 'number' is more than 2 dozen - I am not talking about women I have slept with. I am speaking of women that I know well enough to have discussed the topic of abortion - AND I have discussed their particular pasts and experiences with abortion. I don't include casual acquaintances.

To answer Steve's question (from another post) - Yes, I do think that they have been forthcoming and honest with me. Is it possible some have not? Sure it is. It doesn't skew my understanding.

Does that answer your question?

- Dan

[Stevo]

... in response to It Is Inconsistent With My Experience . ..., posted by Dan on Oct 13, 2002

ggg

[JR]

... in response to Worth mentioning, posted by Philb on Oct 12, 2002

.

[Dan]

... in response to So true.......and it's free!!! n/t, posted by JR on Oct 12, 2002

n/t

[JR]

... in response to What Makes You Say So???  n/t, posted by Dan on Oct 12, 2002

Hello,

First part {so true} I read that in a study done awhile back by some population group who listed country by country study. I beleive it was on CNN, but can't remember now.

Second part {it's free} This I experience first hand during one of my visits to Russia. During that time I had met and talked to physicans who told me about the situation there. They also have better clinics available which a woman can go to, but they are not free.

[Dan]

... in response to Re: What Makes You Say So???  n/t, posted by JR on Oct 12, 2002

Something to support either - or both - your assertions.

While it seems to be accepted as 'common knowledge' about the high abortion rate - it is my understanding (and I *could* be wrong) that very little, if anything, in the way of health care is free in Ukraine any more. Maybe it is different in Russia - but I doubt it.

This recent article seems to support the general direction of your assertion, but it clearly does NOT say that abortions are "free" -- http://www.unfpa.org/modules/dispatch/issues2002/may02/russia.htm

This article clearly DOES support your comment about the high abortion rate -- http://www.census.gov/ipc/prod/ib96-2.pdf

FWIW

- Dan

[Philb]

... in response to I'd Sure Like to See . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 12, 2002

[This message has been edited by Philb]

Here are a couple of links.

http://www.thehollandsentinel.net/stories/073000/new_enough.html

And here is an article

Title: Abortion Rate Drops by 23 Percent in Russia in Four Years
URL: http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/3DB7E.htm
Doctor's Guide
October 14, 1997

MOSCOW, RUSSIA -- October 14, 1997 -- Less Russian women are using abortion as a means of family planning, according to a draft report featuring Russia's compliance with the United Nations' Convention of the Rights of a Child in 1993-1997.

Russia's official statistics holds the drop in the abortion rate made up 23 percent from 1993 to 1997 -- 235 abortions were registered per each 100 deliveries in 1993, compared to 203 abortions in 1997. If calculated per 1,000 women from 15 to 49 years of age, the rate dropped from 88 to 69.

Experts tie the decrease in the number of abortions to the mounting popularity of modern contraception methods. The number of women using oral contraceptives more than doubled from 1993-1997. Intra-womb contraception has become popular as well. Sterilization as a means of preventing undesirable pregnancy is used 1.6 times more frequently than in 1994.

All in all, the percentage of women using various contraception techniques increased from 22.8 to 24.5 in the reporting period, the draft report said.

I have never been told that abortions are free, but I have been told by several Russian women that until the last couple of years it was cheaper to have an occassional abortion than to use oral contraceptives.

Currently China performs the most abortions over 10 million a year.  Russia still has the highest rate of abortions to live births.

[Dan]

... in response to bout birth control..., posted by Frank O on Oct 12, 2002

Condoms are the primary form of birth control - but there are many other forms available.

Pharmatex is a readily-available spermicide cream - and well-known in the FSU.

As well, it is easy to find good-quality birth control tablets from Germany - though they are cost-prohibitive for most ladies I know in Ukraine.

Remember - the countries of the FSU are among the most literate countries in the world. These women fully-understand the consequences of their actions and the methods available to them to limit their risks.

While it *is* true that STD rates (and HIV) are rising at an alarming rate - it is largely attributable to the despair wrought by their economic woes - and the drug trade that accompanies it.

- Dan

[Marty]

... in response to not to start trouble...bout sex..., posted by Frank O on Oct 12, 2002

It's a perplexing issue isn't it?  First off, don't stress it.  If it happens it happens, if it don't...  The only one you really need to worry about is your potential mate.  Does her morals or feelings about sex match yours?  It's just another criteria that you need to evaluate when evaluating the whole woman.  

With the limited amount of time it's really hard to judge a persons values.  Under normal circumstances you may not have sex until the n'th date, but with this situation it may happen on the first because you both need to know if your compatible or not and no sense further wasting time on something that won't work.  

On a side note, I've only really talked to two Ukrainian women about sex (my wife and an interpretor so yes my knowledge is pretty limited) and one of the things they said that were almost identical was that sex creates balance, men and women both need sex to balance their physical and mental health.  Whether it's an old wives tale or what I don't know but they both believed it and and were pretty much opposite in personalities.  Use it for what it's worth.

Best of luck.

[bryan]

... in response to Re: not to start trouble...bout sex..., posted by Marty on Oct 12, 2002

The reason we go there is to meet her and get to know her .We take pictures for the INS so we can prove we are in more then a correspodence with the person for the purposes of  a visa. But that is not the only reasons we go. Before i even knew of or considered a mate from overseas i had dated several women closer to home who i met through personals. One thing I learned is that you have to meet the person face to face to decide if there is that spark or chemistry. I met many women who i thought were "it" and the very second they were standing before me i knew there was no way. The same was true in the reverse when i could tell the girl wasnt taken with me. That is where the risk lies to me, aside from the red flags gold diggers card scammers etc... there is still the chance that you get there and she is not the one. I was layed within 5 minutes of crossing the threshold of our motel room the primal attraction for both of us was there, no doubt. My girl is from the Phillipines so take this and the cultural differences for what its worth.

[Philb]

... in response to not to start trouble...bout sex..., posted by Frank O on Oct 12, 2002

Maybe I am just stating the obvious, but I think that we must not read too much into the presence or absence of sex in these relationships when going over there for a visit. Affection yes, sex no.  If we do, we are thinking with the wrong head.

Sometimes I think that we have lost the ability (as a society) to read the subtle.  We see this in our entertainment, our relationships, even in the food we eat.

Now don't misunderstand me, at some point in the relationship sex must come into play.  As others have said this will vary between individuals and relationships.  This can be after 20 minutes or after marriage.  These women are no different than any others in this regard.

There are many motivating factors when it comes to sex.  Now, ideally, love should be foremost of all of these factors. But obviously we all know that this is not true.  This is why we must look at the whole picture.

[Oscar]

... in response to not to start trouble...bout sex..., posted by Frank O on Oct 12, 2002

I feel that to ascribe superior passion to any particular women in a particular culture would be silly.. I mean, I am sure there are equally passionate women in Brazil, Ukraine, Japan or the Ute Indian reservation in western Utah! LOL!  So to say any country has a "lock" on passionate sexual women would I think be a myth.
Unlike Mark and another poster, I forget who, I DO feel that there are more (as in more of) attractive women in the FSU than here.  Perhaps it is because the women in the FSU really seem more concerned with their appearance in general?  I don't know.. But again obviously this is a matter of opinion.  All I know is that when I have been in Kiev, Odessa, etc., I have had some pretty bad cases of whiplash looking at the huge number of extremely attractive girls..

Anyway, regarding sex-  My feeling is that the FSU women seem much less inhibited than most of the American women I have known (and friends have talked about).  I noticed the difference immediately.  They seem to have little in the way of sexual hang-ups, much less repressed.  Perhaps the loss of religion there for the past 70 years has some play in it all? I don't know.  Oral sex is pretty much a given compared to oral sex in the US, but that would likely be generally held true for much of Europe, just much less repressed.  Like in Denmark and Sweden for example- they edit a lot of the violence from American tv shows yet there is a porno shop on about every corner! LOL!  It's very interesting.. Glad I'm half Swedish! LOL!  
But sex and the speaking about it is a very private thing for most FSU women there I have met, I just don't see them talking about it it the way AW do.  But behind closed doors is another matter.  They are VERY romantic, and I don't mean just here or there.. they are romantic to the roots of their souls, they LIVE it!  They love and seem to relish their femininity and the way it makes them different from men as opposed to many AW who seem to resent the difference somehow.  I have observed (and ALL of this is of course just my own experience and opinions, OK?) that the women there seem to be very concerned that a guys needs are met A LOT, where I just don't see AW feeling this way about it.  For many (I am sure not all) AW, I think they often think of sex as somnething we might do if there is time..  I see RW as saying MAKE time or else! LOL!  And I think this is because they see sex as a a very important continual bonding that must not be forgotten or minimized in a relationship.

Regarding STD's..  I have understood (just heard a story on STD's in the FSU on National Public Radio the other day in my car) that STD's are really becoming a problem there..  Both through drug use and sex..  They are definitely coming into their own with this epidemic.. So LET'S BE CAREFUL OUT THERE! ;-)

Just my observations..