Here's an interesting question.

[Jeff S]

The statement Feptember made a while back about lots of Filipinas interested in marrying Americans then getting a divorce got me to thinking. I don't recall any posters on this board with a direct case of a green card scams. Most of the marriages that seem to go awry, at least from those posters willing to tell their stories, appear to have gone bad because of the normal marriage breakup causes, usually incompatibility. Conversely on the Russian board, there are stories aplenty of runners getting here and disappearing in an very orchestrated fashion. I was curious why that might be. Are Russian women better liars? Are men who seek Asian wives better judges of character? (I ask because this board has the least conversation about physical attributes of any of the three and far more conversation about character) Are those seeking Russian women are looking for a more sophisticated, complex person whereas Asian bride seekers looking for a simpler, more religious person, who finds it more difficult to hide her true feelings and put on a facade of love? Are the green card scam stories often posted on the Russian board BS? My guess is it might be a combination of all the above. Any opinions?

-- Jeff S.

[yc]

... in response to Here's an interesting question., posted by Jeff S on Jan 30, 2002

I work at nights with two others on my shift.  One is a guy the other is a female.  This is right here in the good ole U.S. of A.  Throughout the night on many occasions we discuss various subjects.  However one particular subject comes up frequently.  It is always initiated by the female.  She asks, "Why do men always cheat?... why are ya'll only interested in women from other countries?  Why men do this or why do men that?  Men are always interested looks... etc, etc, etc?"  Just this week she made some comment about men.  Just to be sarcastic but serious at the same time I replied, Why do some women sound like they are making a Capitol One commercial.... WHAT DO YOU HAVE IN YOUR WALLET?  They found that one to be amusing.  I was trying to point something out to her but she never caught on.

The point I was getting at is that on many a nights she will be talking on the phone with one of her girlfriends.  She speaks of only marrying a man with money.  As a matter of fact, she uses that as a precurser to marriage.  According to her, if the marriage goes bad at least she can come out of it with portion of his wealth.  In addition, she does not like to work.  She wants to have children but does not want to care for them.  She believes this will solidify the procurment of his wealth.  All of her so called girlfriends seems to be or at one time was involved with some dead beat guy.  One night while on the phone with one of her girlfriends, she was instructing the female on how to get the guy for all he is worth.  Yet at the same time she considers herself a virtuous woman with good morals and values.  Well just from what I have observed from her in the past 2 yrs, I can honestly say her morals and ethics are very questionable.  The funny thing about this is that I would expect this kind of thinking from a someone in early to mid 20s... maybe even late 20s but she is 30 something.

[Bob S.]

... in response to Here's an interesting question., posted by Jeff S on Jan 30, 2002

"I was curious why that might be. Are Russian women better liars?"

[\IMHO]
I wouldn't say they are better liars, but rather men are inherently more clueless when it comes to picking up on women's communication methods.  That combined with a self-induced blindness stemming from a boyish optimism.

RW have been described as cores of steel wrapped in velvet.  Down in their soul they can be ruthless survivors doing anything necessary for their own preservation and that of their children.  That being said, they can still have the girlish dreams of a fairy tale romance.

So she may agree to marry her Western suitor with honest intentions of trying to get to know him and love him.  But when she gets here, she may find her Hollywood fairy tale dream is not to be, her fantasy expectations crumble to dust, she and her new husband really have different personalities, in other words natural conflicts arise that crack at the foundation of the relationship.

At this point, even the man can begin to see that things are starting to fall apart.  But being a man, he is naturally boyishly optimistic and hopeful that if he argues enough, cajoles enough, yells enough, bribes her enough, pleads enough, or cries enough, he can somehow save the marriage (and his sizable investment).  Now for an American woman, who is tough on the outside but soft on the inside, this would work.  But for a RW who is soft on the outside but hard as nails on the inside, this just telegraphs a signal that the husband realizes that the marriage may be coming to an end.  So she reverts to type, a ruthless survivor, and starts planning her exit strategy, ready to lie, cheat, steal, kill, or whatever is necessary to avoid getting sent back to whatever Siberian Sh!teholegorod he found her in. (Who could blame her?)  So when she finally makes her move, the ever-hopeful guy gets completely blindsided.  Though he may admit later that he did see the signs and red flags but chose to ignore them (his optimism blinding him with "hope" that this was just a phase they were working through).

Such ruthlessness does not seem to be a common trait or virtue in the cultures of the Far East or Southeast Asia.  I was recently reading in the book "Bushido" (I forget the author at the moment) how in ancient Japanese nobility clans, women would be expected to self-sacrifice for her husband even to the point of self-immolation, just as a warrior would be expect to sacrifice himself for his daimyo or shogun.  This self-sacrifice for the harmony of the group, be it the family or town or organized institution, seems to be a stronger virtue (to varying degrees) in Asian cultures than in nations west of the Gobi Desert (ours included).
[IMHO]

[Jeff S]

... in response to Spouting off / Breaking wind, posted by Bob S. on Feb 1, 2002


Wow, Bob. That was eloquent, and I suspect a bit autobiographical. Yes, the code of living (the kanji pronounced "do" in bushi-do in Japanese and "tao" in Chinese) has shaped the lives and guided the actions of most Asians for millenia - OK maybe only centuries. It is generally translated as "the way." I read once, it was probably a throwback to cave man days, when mankind expanded out of Africa, they were forced to go either eastward in to the great steppes of Asia or westward into the dense forests of Europe. The northern progress impeded by the Caucasus mountains, the Black Sea and the ice sheets that lay beyond. Those in Europe were fairly well protected against mother nature and had to adapt a hunting style that called for quick thinking, independent action. Anyone who's seen a deer crashing through the woods knows what I mean. So the western philosophy became one of quick, independent thinking and hard hitting action. Those who went east and eventually became the eastern Asians were faced with entirely different conditions. The weather required a division of labor, some building shelter others finding water, and others hunting. The herds of large plains animals required a cooperative effort, and contemplative planning, so the eastern philospohy was more based on these traits, the good of the group, well planned actions, and cooperative effort.

That's also may be why many Asian/American marriages are so strong today, with one concentrating on the long term planning and cooperative effort of thr group, with the other a quick thinking, hard hitting opportunitist, you got quite a team there.

-- Jeff S.

[Bob S.]

... in response to Re: Spouting off / Breaking wind, posted by Jeff S on Feb 2, 2002

"That was eloquent, and I suspect a bit autobiographical."

Fortunately not too autobiographical.  I was able to avoid the worst of it by learning from the mistakes of others.  Among the lessons I gleaned from those who went before me are:
1. Face the reality of the situation.
2. Retain those last shreds of dignity so you'll have the strength of do what needs be done.
3. Stay calm to stay in control.
4. Never threaten her immigration status so she'll have no reason to bring forth the "cutthroat survivor".
5. Plan your exit strategy (remove precious family heirlooms you don't want destroyed, have a place to go, have funds ready in case things get expensive).
6. If things haven't gone too far, leave the door open for reconciliation with counseling (but don't try to push anybody through it).
7. Give her enough rope to hang herself.

A few who've posted here (e.g. Zebson) and on other boards probably know all too well what I'm talking about.

[Howard]

... in response to Here's an interesting question., posted by Jeff S on Jan 30, 2002

Jeff

Mine was kind of a Green Card deal, but my wife wouldn't go along with her parents wishes.  Honestly, as I have said here before, I don't think there was anything sinister involved in my situation, but money--helping her family to a better style of life--not love was the motivating factor for my marriage.  I believe that her parents thought highly of me and hoped that we would fall in love, but still the motivation was financial.  Even if it was simply for their daughter to be better off financially then they are with no intention of benefitting themselves, it was financial and not motivated by any sort of true feelings.

Again, I think a true Green Card skam is faciltated by the wife, not the family, or by the wife with the blessings of the family.  The fact that my wife was an unwilling participant, which I honestly feel she was, doesn't exactly qualify our nightmare as a Green Card Skam, but it does have similarities.

For the record, I started out considering a Russian bride after innocently stumbling across a MOB site, while searching for a normal dating site.  The Russian site, led to a Russian/Filipina site and so on.  After MUCH soul searching and research I decided to try the Filipina route over the Russian, because I felt that I had a better chance of a successful marriage.  I guess I proved THAT theory wrong! :c)  

Personally, looks aren't very important to me.  Sure, if I can get BOTH substance and beauty I'm IN!  LOL  I am a guy for Christ's sake!  LOL  But just like inner beauty can make someone average appear more beautiful to me, the lack of inner beauty can make a super model ugly to me.  It's the WHOLE package that counts.  Given a choice between one or the other, I will always choose substance!  And I have always thought that the family values are higher among Filipinas, but that is from my personal expirience and not an inditement of Russian women as a whole!

Just my $.02.... Your mileage may vary!

H

[Ray]

... in response to Here's an interesting question., posted by Jeff S on Jan 30, 2002

Good questions Jeff! Here are some of my thoughts on the reported divorce comments.

When many of these foreign ladies decide to make the big decision to marry a man and leave everything behind to start a new life halfway around the globe, they surely still have some doubts in the back of their mind. As a matter of self-preservation, it would be natural for them to have a “Plan B” just in case things don’t work out.

I’m sure that they have all heard horror stories about other women who have gone before them. Many of these women just haven’t had the time together with their future husbands to feel comfortable that they really know the person well enough to place 100% of their trust in that man. They have probably all given at least some thought to what they would do if they find themselves in a relationship that just isn’t what they expected. And if they do find themselves in a precarious marriage, they know that divorce would be one logical option to consider.

When the men here discuss ways to protect themselves and their assets if their future marriage to that foreign woman doesn’t work out, they consider this as a prudent and logical step in the process. But when some of those same men hear of a foreign lady talking about what she might do if she finds herself in an impossible situation after she arrives here, they start yelling “Green Card Shark” or Gold Digger”. I think a little role-reversal thinking might help them to better see the other side of the coin.

I think both parties to these long distance relationships are going to go through a similar thought process when they are deciding whether to make the big leap of faith and commit to a marriage with someone who they just don’t know all that well. They should know that they are taking a big gamble, but they should also realize that their future mate is doing the same. In the usual case where the woman is leaving behind everything she has ever known to live abroad with a virtual stranger, it seems reasonable that she would be the one feeling the most vulnerable.

I just feel that is unreasonable to expect all of these ladies to blindly place their lives in your hands without at least some thoughts of protecting themselves, especially when they have only spent a couple of weeks with you and have never seen your home or experienced your lifestyle here in your country.

Just something to think about…

Ray

[Jeff S]

... in response to Divorce Talk, posted by Ray on Jan 31, 2002


.. and I agree, it really is naieve for a woman to go into a foreign relationship without at least having thought through what she should do if everything fell apart once she found herself 9000 miles from home in an impossible situation. What I was wondering about was those who go into it with full intenion of leaving after getting here and established - as the converstions Febtember overheard before moving here and some of the stories on the Russian board you read about. Those cases seem very rare on the Asian and Latin boards but much more common on the Russian board.

Maybe what we're looking at is more of a religious or cultural imperative to stick out marriages and make things work out. Like you, I doubt that out and out visa prostitution is anything other than very rare. Claims of such are more likely the egos of men with unrealistic expectations and poor relationship skills, who's marriages have failed for other reasons.

-- Jeff S.

[Ray]

... in response to I hear what you're saying..., posted by Jeff S on Jan 31, 2002

Well Jeff,

Most of those talking about planning to marry an American and then divorce him when they get here are probably just talking trash and will never follow through.

For Filipinas who actually do marry Americans, I agree that the number who are really fooling the guy and have absolutely no intention of even trying to make the marriage work is very small. From my experience with hundreds of Fil-Am marriages I am personally aware of, I would put that number at something less than 1%. I can only think of one such case that I have personal knowledge of. Of course, now the “Bull Krap” crowd will jump in to accuse me of lying about my experiences :-) That’s O.K., they have their own problems that they will have to work out on their own.

I think Patrick was correct when he said that most of the Green-Card-Shark stories are probably just guys using that as an excuse to rationalize the failure of their marriage. By the time the marriage is on the rocks and the divorce battle is on, it may seem like a possible Gold-Digger or Green-Card-Shark case, but it most likely was not any preconceived plan on the lady’s part. Almost always, things just plain didn’t work out for whatever reason and both parties are at fault to one degree or another. It’s real easy to place all of the blame on the Filipino culture and claim that they are all like that. It’s much harder to look inside oneself for possible reasons that the marriage failed and take personal responsibility where appropriate.

Why there may or may not be more cases of fraud in the Russian or Latin arenas I have no idea. I consider myself unqualified to comment on that topic :-)

Ray

[Patrick]

... in response to Here's an interesting question., posted by Jeff S on Jan 30, 2002

There are far, far more marriages taking place between East European women and Western men than there are Asian (or Latin).  With so many more marriages, there will undoubtably be more failure stories.  The bad stories are more likely to be reported around the net than successes.  My belief is that the majority of them end for reasons other than that that the woman was using the man for a green card, but many guys use that as an excuse when they relate their stories.  We all rationalize our failures to one degree or another.

Also, religion was supressed for three generations in the Soviet Union, so I think morality and ethics may be lagging there compared to the Philippines or Latin America, both of which have very strong Catholic influences.

I don't necessarilly think that the men pursuing East European women are going more for looks.  If you read the Latin board, there's at least as much talk about the physical attributes as the Russian board.  I do notice that the men seeking Asian women are more oriented towards inner qualities than either the Latin or East European bride seekers.  I have no idea why that is, but it's not just your own perception, I've noticed it too and have long wondered why that is.  My hat's off to you guys here on the Asian board for being the most grounded of all.  Those who favor inner qualities tend to have more successful marriages IMHO.

I suspect there's a strong racial ingredient in the choices being made by many of the East European bride seekers.  I once took a mini-poll on their board asking why they decided on that area when there's so many scam stories.  There were a few who either came from there, or who's parents/grandparents came from there and preferred to pursue a woman from their family's culture, but I think the majority of them chose Eastern Europe after first deciding to go the "MOB" route, and then settling on Eastern Europe because the women looked like the Caucasion American women they're used to.  Shhhhhh, don't tell the Russian board I said that!

[Jeff S]

... in response to Re: Here's an interesting question., posted by Patrick on Jan 30, 2002

I would have guessed there are far more Filipina MOBs than any other. I'm sure there have been brides from the Phils for longer than Eastern Europe. I thought there were some statistics posted a month or two ago on number of K1s and I thought the Phils had the highest number by uite a bit. I'd guess, though in sheer numbers that Latin/American marriages outnumber all the rest. It may be because I live in Southern California where Latins make up a far bigger percentage of minorities than all others combined. BTW, I mentioned that the Asian board has the least discussion of physical attributes of all three boards. I notice the Latin board get's pretty physical at times too.

-- Jeff S.

[donb2222]

... in response to Re: Here's an interesting question., posted by Patrick on Jan 30, 2002

Thanks for the input.  Do you have any statistics regarding the percentages of men marrying women from East Europe, Asia, and Latin America?
Btw: you said "I don't necessarilly think that the men pursuing East European women are going more for looks"
and then followed that with "and then settling on Eastern Europe because the women looked like the Caucasion American women they're used to"
To me, you contradicted yourself.   My opinion is that the guys are concentrating more on looks than they are on compatible cultures, religion,communication, morals and ethics, general attitudes about getting ahead, drinking, relationships, etc.

Thanks for the compliments,

Don

[NW Jim]

... in response to Re: Re: Here's an interesting question., posted by donb2222 on Jan 30, 2002

Patrick,
I would also be interested to see the percentage breakdown of country/area of origin on foreign brides.

[donb2222]

... in response to Here's an interesting question., posted by Jeff S on Jan 30, 2002

I think that many of the guys interested in Russians are only looking at the physical attributes, and not the entire woman.   When you combine this with the fact that some of them marry women much more attractive than themselves, the most likely outcome is that she will leave.
Also, IMHO, many Russian women are raised with the attitude of doing anything it takes to get by.  
I started by looking towards Russia about ten years ago. Many of the women are incredibly beautiful, but the more I learned about the culture, the less attractive they became for me.
I think the failure rate on the Russian board is the fault of both the American men, and the Russian women.

[donb2222]

... in response to Re: Here's an interesting question., posted by donb2222 on Jan 30, 2002

My above post should read:
Also, IMHO, many Russian women are raised with the attitude of doing anything it takes to get ahead.