Banned

[Patrick]

Lizard99 was an easy call.  Unfortuantely, Mdante99 went as well, not for being a troll, but simply for making my job MUCH more difficult than it should be.

Let's all please try to argue points on merits rather than launch into personal attacks.  Obviously when we mix people from all over the world together, there's going to be disagreemnts, but there's no need for personal attacks.  If you disagree with something that someone's saying, attack their argument rather than the person.

[snowwego]

... in response to Banned, posted by Patrick on Jan 4, 2002

Lets all hope this is behind us and that we can even look at constructive critisizm as well.  Things were getting out of hand and you did a very good thing.

[tim360z]

... in response to Banned, posted by Patrick on Jan 4, 2002

Hi Patrick,

 My apologies to both you and the board for taking up space and whipping Eldante.  I simply found him way way out of line hurling his attacks and insults at nearly everyone who contributes valuable input to this board.  Cheers, Tim

[Patrick]

... in response to Thank You, Thank You,  Patrick, posted by tim360z on Jan 4, 2002

I'm sure there's plenty of others with the opposite opinion.  Mdante at least provided some needed negativity.  I just wish the nay-sayers (sp?) could do so civilly.  

There's plenty of risk in these marriages, especially for those who take the agency sales pitches literally.  And the risk is not only for the men, though that's what everybody dwells on.  The ladies are taking at least as much (if not more) risk than the men are.

[WilliamMGi]

... in response to Re: Thank You, Thank You,  Patrick, posted by Patrick on Jan 4, 2002

Case in point: the long thread (and escalating argument) forming below.

[tim360z]

... in response to Re: Thank You, Thank You,  Patrick, posted by Patrick on Jan 4, 2002

Yeah!  There is the question of an informed and balanced view on all of this.  Anyone thinking they are going down the yellow brick road with RW/UW's,  should realize that this is not quite as easy as some may paint it.  There are no real dependable or accurate #'s to use as a comparison.  And it is silly to play interpolation games with unverified figures.  I think any guy considering upon embarking on this pursuit should realize that its going to be difficult,  cost more than you thought, and that the odds are quite against you.  Possibly,  you will succeed.  These are all things for a sane and rational guy to strongly consider...you can loose and you can loose your shirt,  I think.  You can loose bigtime.  Just as you can loose on the stock market or in a casino or at monopoly.  The more knowledge one has,  applied accordingly---the better the odds are in ones favor...usually.  Thankfully,  there are many experienced guys on this board which provide their input...their education...positive and negative.  This is not a pursuit to view through rose colored glasses or through dark glasses.  It is something to see clearly.  No poster, whether positive or negative should be ramming their view down everyones throat,  or insulting people who do not agree with their exalted view...its that simple.  Talk about negativism---few here can reach the heights of negativism which,  some may feel,  LP espouses.  Yet,  he does not ram it to those who disagree---he discusses the points without sinking to odor of eldante.  Of continually making personal attacks and hitting below the belt...things I know Lp is capable of.  But,  he refrains.  But,  he helps to add constructive balance...which is something which,  I feel is needed.  Eldante, just went way too far out and waged a nasty little war with anyone who called him to question...about anything.  Probably,  there are some psyschological issues involved.  Personally,  I have learned alot from the good members of this board and I am sure others can to...it is less a question of positive and negative...but of balance,  information and perception.

[Bobby Orr]

... in response to Re: Thank You, Thank You,  Patrick, posted by Patrick on Jan 4, 2002

I see no risk on the part of these women.  They have nothing.  We pay for everything, every step of the way.  The worst thing that happens to them is they get to see America for a while - a free all expenses paid vacation -  and then they go right back where they started, definitely richer and with some worldly experience they would for the most part never have the opportunity to legitimately get in their lives without our help as well.

[Michael B]

... in response to Re: Re: Thank You, Thank You,  Patrick, posted by Bobby Orr on Jan 4, 2002

"They risk nothing, we risk MONEY"....I really get irked when I see posts like this. I'll give you the benifit of doubt that you just haven't thought it all the way through.....

I don't think you are risking your rent and food money, you are risking "extra" money. Granted for some of us (especial around the Michael B manson) "extra" money is hard to come by. I'm interested in Latinas (one in particular), but I think this post applies to FSU women and Asian women as well....in a country with xx% (whatever, but darn sure higher than US) unemployment we ask her to abandon a job that her children, if any, parents and younger siblings may all be depending on, give up a house or apartment, leave everything she knows, and every BODY she knows to come to a place where she (in most cases) has little or no knowlege of the customs, limited or no ability to speak the local language, in other words, no ability to support or protect herself here and nobody to help her if things don't work out. Maybe she got hooked up with a flake who actually abuses her (happens sometimes, although I think not as often as the "do gooders" orginzations want to make the general public beleive) and maybe it just honestly doesn't work out for the couple...that happens too...so the woman has to either stay here in a bad situation, or go home--where her old job has been filled by another, to face shame and embassesment as a "failure" and now the local men consider her "used", "damaged goods"....All this on top of the usual "broken heart" feeling that ALL people get when a love affair (local or overseas) that they were sincere about doesn't work out. I could keep typing all day, but you should get the idea by now.

If you had said "I (as a man) risk a broken heart" I would say you're right, we all are taking that risk. If you said that you also were risking shame and embarrassment from you're friends ("told you that was a stupid idea") I'd say that's true too. Even the pro-pre-nuptual-agreement (quite a controversity--"Protect yourself" vs "Insult the lady's sincerity") guys here are at least thinking long term/marriage minded (they just want some "insurance"). But when you say "I'm out the cost of her VACATION"....well, that just doesn't set well with me. Makes it look like you think this is just a game of "buy her a nice trip, hey, maybe I'll score", without thinking of the consequences for the lady and the REAL risk she is taking.

Well, so much for my two pesos worth, and I'm not a Pollyanna, I know that some of them ARE players and sharks, it's up to us to weed them out, but at the same time RESPECT the good ones---would you want some guy to buy your sister or daughter a "vacation" and then just send her back? I know they better not try that to MY daughter.

But, like I said, I'm giving you the benefit, just trying to give you and other guys something to think about.

[Zink]

... in response to I agree with the other posters  (long), posted by Michael B on Jan 5, 2002

I agree with you 100% And to my thinking the men involved in this aren't risking any more than they would in a normal relationship here. It will cost more money and can be more difficult because of the cultural differences. But if everything fails we will not be worse of than if we failed with a western woman.

The woman is giving up everything that she has and knows. She is putting her entire life in the hands of somebody who is most likely very much a stranger to her. If the guys were smart they learned about her life overseas. But the girls would never have had that chance to observe us in our natural surroundings. To my thinking the women bear the greatest share of the risks in this.

[tim360z]

... in response to Re: Re: Thank You, Thank You,  Patrick, posted by Bobby Orr on Jan 4, 2002

Dan and Yoe.  I have heard it from friends there,  who are simply friends.  This is all common knowledge.  There are some screwed-up characters involved in meeting FSU ladies and taking advantage of them.  Most people,  female and male have all heard the stories.  Some of these ladies have a very strong sense of honor and some pay a high price.

[yoe]

... in response to Re: Re: Thank You, Thank You,  Patrick, posted by Bobby Orr on Jan 4, 2002

the worst thing is they marry someone like David SD or that guy from Russian Women No More or whatever it is......I have seen some of the guys who go over and I would shoot the bastards if I ever seen them coming to pick uop my dog let alone a sister or female family member, Trust me these girls have much more than our pocket money. They have family, honor and social commorodity.........at least many. so do not fool yourself and do not think that you are doing them a favor---------you will be shark food for sure.
Joe

[Dan]

... in response to Re: Re: Thank You, Thank You,  Patrick, posted by Bobby Orr on Jan 4, 2002

I don't mean to get into a pissing match with you - in fact, I won't. But I've been on the other side listening to many, many women telling of the corrupt and insincere men that had led them on.

You are correct that they often have little material wealth - but they have their dignity - and every time some guy gets the urge to spend some time on the 'net and make a few contacts and maybe tell a few stories - with no serious intent of following up on things - the potential for a broken heart is very real.

Don't kid yourself into believing that you are their 'savior' or some knight riding in on a white horse. They are women just like any other women - and they deserve to be treated with respect.

The damage that is wrought when a guy leads one of these ladies on - especially if it gets to the point that she actually gets aboard a plane to come here, can be devastating and life-changing (not in a good way) for her. If she gives up her work or stops her education it can be highly-disruptive - at best. If there are children involved, it can be criminal (IMHO).

Just something for you to consider.

Cheers,

- Dan

[BubbaGump]

... in response to No  -You Missed The Point Entirely . . ., posted by Dan on Jan 4, 2002

I don't want to be a jerk either.  I only write girls I am reasonably serious about.

[micha1]

... in response to No  -You Missed The Point Entirely . . ., posted by Dan on Jan 4, 2002

Right on, Dan.   Very well said.

[Jeff]

... in response to No  -You Missed The Point Entirely . . ., posted by Dan on Jan 4, 2002

Not only that, but when they get back home they will likely be seen as a failure to friends and family, the same way as we would be seen if they left us after all the work we go through to get them here.